My Crazy View

[cathopologist]

Are you impying that you share the same God with Muslims, Jews, Hindus and other world religions without Christ? How can you even share the same definition of evil? Did you know Jesus called His disciples evil? Do you think anyone loves their neighbor as themseleves in the way that God requires? Havye you considered the biblical reasons for the 10 commandments. You might want to start with the book of Galatians.

I share the same God as with the Jews and Muslims because of Abrahamic claims. Otherwise, i’d leave the Muslims out of the picture and also because the Vatican knows more about diplomacy and theology far better than you and i can comprehend. The Hindus do not share the same thoughts as i do, but did you know Hinduism is actually a bastardized version of the Vedic religion? I was a former Brahmin and i know just how wrong it is to brand them as polytheists when in fact they believe strongly in monotheism. But that’s not the main arguement here.

Are you referring to Luke 9 when you claim Christ called His disciples ‘evil’? underdog, it is easy to quote verses to prove a point but the question always remains - are you actually quoting them in context? Seriously, you think i’m a blind convert to the faith? I’ve done my homework, brother.

 

[cathopologist]

And Cathopologist your words ring with truth.

Thank you. I debate and disagree with Muslims all the time but that does not mean i should never give them the respect they deserve for being God’s children. Their founder may have had obvious flaws, but that does not make all Muslims devil worshippers.

I do not condone bigotry of any sorts especially ones based on race or culture or religion. That would be the most un-Christian thing to do.

 

[underdog]

First and foremost, the Centurion was a pagan. He was still a pagan when he visited Christ. Do you really know your Bible?

The Centurion was a Roman Gentile who believed and had faith in Christ.

Matthew 8

The Faith of a Centurion

5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, [3] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel [4] have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

 

[underdog]

Underdog,

Benedict has stated that Judaism and Islam SPECIFICALLY do worship the same god. This is the God of AbraHam. It is truly tragic that they do not worship Christ or indeed the Trinity but they do worship the same God as we.

So now go to your Bible. . . Give some quotes and whatnot.

And Cathopologist your words ring with truth.

Do you understand why Scripture is authorative over men like Benedict. I find your statement to be insightful in more ways than one. Does any other Roman Catholics want to confirm that you worship the same God as the Muslims and the unbelieving Jews? I thought non-Catholic Christians worship the same God as Catholic Christans. Maybe I’m wrong on that point?

 

[Feanor]

Catholics believe in the sentiments of the Holy Father. Protestants are free to rely on personal interpretation of Scripture hence the multitudes of denominations.

 

[JonNC]

Catholics believe in the sentiments of the Holy Father. Protestants are free to rely on personal interpretation of Scripture hence the multitudes of denominations.

That’s an interesting comment, Feanor. At the very beginning of this thread I quoted the CCC which shows that your lack of respect for n-C Christians, and even your accusation that “Protestants have specifically and pointedly abandoned the True Church by choice” are in contradiction of Catholic teaching (and the sentiments of the Holy Father), and therefore are your “personal interpretation”

Jon

 

[underdog]

Catholics believe in the sentiments of the Holy Father. Protestants are free to rely on personal interpretation of Scripture hence the multitudes of denominations.

Do you worship the same God as the Muslims and unbelieving Jews as stated by Cat (cathopologist)?

Underdog

 

[JonNC]

Do you worship the same God as the Muslims and unbelieving Jews as stated by Cat (cathopologist)?

Underdog

Scripturally, underdog, it is the same God. They just fail to recognize the right Gospel.

Jon

Edit: BTW, I loved underdog. Wally Cox had a great voice for that character.

 

[Feanor]

That’s an interesting comment, Feanor. At the very beginning of this thread I quoted the CCC which shows that your lack of respect for n-C Christians, and even your accusation that “Protestants have specifically and pointedly abandoned the True Church by choice” are in contradiction of Catholic teaching (and the sentiments of the Holy Father), and therefore are your “personal interpretation”

Jon

Yes this is indeed my personal opinion- I referred to it as “my crazy view.”

I was looking for Catholic opinions though, predictably, I have received mainly unathoratative Protestant opinions.

 

[JonNC]

Yes this is indeed my personal opinion- I referred to it as “my crazy view.”

I was looking for Catholic opinions though, predictably, I have received mainly unathoratative Protestant opinions.

I wonder how Ruthie and Gottle will respond to that. And remember, I quoted the CCC. That’s pretty authoratatively Catholic.
As for protestant responses, what did you expect, considering what appears to be a rather uncharitable opinion in the Non-Catholic Religions thread?

Jon

 

[underdog]

Scripturally, underdog, it is the same God. They just fail to recognize the right Gospel.

Jon

Edit: BTW, I loved underdog. Wally Cox had a great voice for that character.

No, Jesus said the unbelieving Jews claimed to worship the God of Abraham, but their real Father was Satan. If they worshipped the God of Abraham, they would have received Jesus as the Christ just like the Jewish disciples.

John 8

The Truth Will Set You Free
31 So Jesus said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you abide in my word, you are truly my disciples, 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” 33 They answered him, “We are offspring of Abraham and have never been enslaved to anyone. How is it that you say, ‘You will become free’?”

34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave [2] to sin. 35 The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. 36 So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37 I know that you are offspring of Abraham; yet you seek to kill me because my word finds no place in you. 38 I speak of what I have seen with my Father, and you do what you have heard from your father.”

You Are of Your Father the Devil
39 They answered him, “Abraham is our father.” Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would be doing the works Abraham did, 40 but now you seek to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. This is not what Abraham did. 41 You are doing the works your father did.” They said to him, “We were not born of sexual immorality. We have one Father—even God.” 42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.”

Before Abraham Was, I Am
48 The Jews answered him, “Are we not right in saying that you are a Samaritan and have a demon?” 49 Jesus answered, “I do not have a demon, but I honor my Father, and you dishonor me. 50 Yet I do not seek my own glory; there is One who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51 Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.” 52 The Jews said to him, “Now we know that you have a demon! Abraham died, as did the prophets, yet you say, ‘If anyone keeps my word, he will never taste death.’ 53 Are you greater than our father Abraham, who died? And the prophets died! Who do you make yourself out to be?” 54 Jesus answered, “If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing. It is my Father who glorifies me, of whom you say, ‘He is our God.’ [3] 55 But you have not known him. I know him. If I were to say that I do not know him, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and I keep his word. 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad.” 57 So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” [4] 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

 

[cathopologist]

The Centurion was a Roman Gentile who believed and had faith in Christ.

Matthew 8

The Faith of a Centurion

5 When he entered Capernaum, a centurion came forward to him, appealing to him, 6 “Lord, my servant is lying paralyzed at home, suffering terribly.” 7 And he said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the centurion replied, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof, but only say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I too am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. And I say to one, ‘Go,’ and he goes, and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes, and to my servant, [3] ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he marveled and said to those who followed him, “Truly, I tell you, with no one in Israel [4] have I found such faith. 11 I tell you, many will come from east and west and recline at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, 12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 And to the centurion Jesus said, “Go; let it be done for you as you have believed.” And the servant was healed at that very moment.

Jesus praised the Centurion because He knew, despite him being a pagan, had greater faith then the Jews around Him who showed little respect for Gentiles and Pagans. There are many non-Catholics around the world today, who flock to Catholic churches to pray despite them being members of other religious institutions. They are just as curious as the Centurion and perhaps sharing the same belief system as the Centurion, but they are not Christians.

The passage also teaches us that although not a Christian, the pagan had deep piety and had good intentions for his servant. Our Lord did not disdain his heart but instead cured his servant. It did not matter to Our Lord if the Centurion was pagan, because Our Lord recognized the love and concern the pagan had for his servant.

 

[underdog]

Jesus praised the Centurion because He knew, despite him being a pagan, had greater faith then the Jews around Him who showed little respect for Gentiles and Pagans. There are many non-Catholics around the world today, who flock to Catholic churches to pray despite them being members of other religious institutions. They are just as curious as the Centurion and perhaps sharing the same belief system as the Centurion, but they are not Christians.

The passage also teaches us that although not a Christian, the pagan had deep piety and had good intentions for his servant. Our Lord did not disdain his heart but instead cured his servant. It did not matter to Our Lord if the Centurion was pagan, because Our Lord recognized the love and concern the pagan had for his servant.

How can the Centurion be a pagan if He had faith in Jesus Christ? Tell me… what is your understanding of paganism. Are you trying to say that you can have faith in the true and living Christ and still be a pagan? Jesus Christ was alive when the Centurion believed. I’m not sure if we can call anybody a Christian in our understanding of the word since Jesus did not die and ressurected at this point in history. Again, how are you defining Pagan or Christian in this account. Since the Centurion had greater faith in Christ than the Jews, I would say the Centurion was more Christian than the unbelieving Jews. It is very insightful that non-Christians go to Catholic Churches to worship. Are you saying Pagans are allowed to worship God in your Catholic Churches throughout the world, even though they deny the Triune God, and Jesus Christ and Him crucified? It sure seems you are preaching a works righteousness relationship with God without the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ as being necessary to have access to the Father.

 

[cathopologist]

I’m not sure if we can call anybody a Christian in our understanding of the word since Jesus did not die and ressurected at this point in history. Again, how are you defining Pagan or Christian in this account. Since the Centurion had greater faith in Christ than the Jews, I would say the Centurion was more Christian than the unbelieving Jews. It is very insightful that non-Christians go to Catholic Churches to worship. Are you saying Pagans are allowed to worship God in your Catholic Churches throughout the world, even though they deny the Triune God, and Jesus Christ and Him crucified? It sure seems you are preaching a works righteousness relationship with God without the death, burial and ressurection of Jesus Christ as being necessary to have access to the Father.

You know, a pagan can still have faith in a deity or a god and still be a moral human being. This is what Protestantism fails to recognize. The Centurion was not a Christian when he visited Christ. Are you aware Roman soldiers were pagans during Jesus’ ministry on earth? I think you are very confused and unable to differentiate when Christianity actually started. Having faith in Jesus does not necessarily make one a Christian. Many non-Christians have faith in Jesus yet are not practicing or baptized Christians and yet still, many choose not to become Christians despite having faith in Him. Just today, i was in church for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and i noticed a Chinese lady seated beside me whom i have never met before. Then i soon realized she was a Taoist because of the pendants she wore around her neck. Yet, she prayed along during Mass. This is common sight even in Protestant churches throughout Singapore and if not, the rest of the world.

I do not preach the things you say but if it amuses you to say it, then i will not stop you because its better to let the dim wick burn than to not burn at all.

 

[underdog]

You know, a pagan can still have faith in a deity or a god and still be a moral human being. This is what Protestantism fails to recognize. The Centurion was not a Christian when he visited Christ. Are you aware Roman soldiers were pagans during Jesus’ ministry on earth? I think you are very confused and unable to differentiate when Christianity actually started. Having faith in Jesus does not necessarily make one a Christian. Many non-Christians have faith in Jesus yet are not practicing or baptized Christians and yet still, many choose not to become Christians despite having faith in Him. Just today, i was in church for the Feast of the Immaculate Conception and i noticed a Chinese lady seated beside me whom i have never met before. Then i soon realized she was a Taoist because of the pendants she wore around her neck. Yet, she prayed along during Mass. This is common sight even in Protestant churches throughout Singapore and if not, the rest of the world.

I do not preach the things you say but if it amuses you to say it, then i will not stop you because its better to let the dim wick burn than to not burn at all.

What is a moral human being? According to God’s standard, to be a moral human being is to be sinless. You guys have drifted so far from the scriptures that you no longer are able to see all human beings as being sinners in need of a savior. That is what this is really about. This is what I see with 21st century Catholicism. Christ died in vain since there are many ways to the Father apart from faith and trust in Christ.

Justified by Faith
15 We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16 yet we know that a person is not justified [1] by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.

17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness [2] were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose. - Gal 2

 

[cathopologist]

What is a moral human being? According to God’s standard, to be a moral human being is to be sinless.

It is not according to God’s standards but your standards. Are you sinless? I never said moral human beings are sinless. Are you born without sin?

 

[cathopologist]

Christ died in vain since there are many ways to the Father apart from faith and trust in Christ.

You know, one can reverse your statement and say the same things about your kind.

 

[cathopologist]

underdog, posting Scripture is meaningless if the verses are taken out of context and personally, i find it insulting that you dissect the Bible in such a fashion. Have respect for God’s words.

 

[underdog]

It is not according to God’s standards but your standards. Are you sinless? I never said moral human beings are sinless. Are you born without sin?

Okay, what is a moral human being? Have you considered Romans chapter 2 in regards to our universal God given conscience? Because of our conscience, we are all guilty before God, condemned and deserving of Hell… apart from hearing of Jesus Christ and His saving gospel.

 

[cathopologist]

Okay, what is a moral human being? Have you considered Romans chapter 2 in regards to our universal God given conscience? Because of our conscience, we are all guilty before God, condemned and deserving of Hell… apart from hearing of Jesus Christ and His saving gospel.

You’re preaching to the choir. A moral human being is able to discern right from wrong but is unable to right the wrongs of the first chapter of Genesis. Are you actually wanting to discuss or are you just wanting to make noise?