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devoutchristian
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Such as?
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yellowbird
Guest
Do I really need to give you the words? If a brother or sister in Christ says something contrary to Church teaching do you seriously think quoting it and saying
Ignore his evil words.
is most effective?
and then when someone else empathizes with the OP respond with,
He is wrong - ignore his lies.
Seiously? I’m certain if you give it some thought, you could think of better responses. Ones that don’t include name calling and words like heretic.
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devoutchristian
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I misunderstood your statement. I thought you were saying that people lied in response to the heretics.
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Scottgun
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I don’t think it is necessarily ineffective. The only thing you have established is that you personally don’t like it. Well what else is new?
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Allegra
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I don’t think there is anything wrong with being relieved that another child is one thing you don’t have to worry about. However, I think it is evident that this was the wrong course of action for your daughter to take and she is still in very severe risk because of the life she is living. If you assisted your daughter in getting the sterilization, that was the wrong thing to do and you should confess it. If you merely feel relieved about it, I don’t think that in an of itself is a sin. I think everybody feels for you and understands what a hard situation you are in, if that makes you feel better. But objectively, sterilization is a sinful action. Hopefully, when you speak to the priest, he might have some good ideas and resources for ways that you can help your daughter get her life back on track.
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Personanongrata
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When was the last time a priest said this in church? I can’t remember EVER hearing a discussion on this topic. Years ago when all my girlfriends got married (in the church) and started having kids - guess what? They all stopped at 2 or 3 cause that is all they wanted. Some had jobs and some stayed at home. They all went to church and go now. They never heard it either. One woman did it to avoid taking the pill, cause she knew that was a “sin”, but she never heard or was taught that getting her tubes tied was a sin. None of them have any regrets.
When told that they had “sinned” the priests told them all that since they did not know it was not a sin. They are all still very happy with their respective choices, and have raised all their children into happy productive citizens.
If the Church wants to see a change in this part of the culture, then the priests need to take some responsibility for what the people know and don’t know.
$0.02
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Anglewannabe
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I am in total agreement But I also think people on this website need to speak up as well
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grammysue731
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Thank you all for the responses. I went to my priest today, and talked about the situation. I went first to confession, then we had a long talk about this. I am truly sorry for supporting the sterilization, and do mourn the loss of any future grandchildren. I have and will continue to pray for my daughter and her family, but ultimately the decision to get her tubes tied was between her and her husband. I did not make that decision. I love my daughter dearly, and as her mom I support her, but given the fact that we already have a strained relationship (remember I am already raising her oldest full time) I did not argue about it with her, especially since she is no longer practicing her faith (or any faith ), we have much bigger bridges to cross, and protect from burning… my encouragement was for her to take care of what she has, and be thankful for that, and by not trying to talk her out of it (not sharing my belief that it was wrong) I was wrong. I did settle for the less confrontational route, but for extenuating circumstances… ( keep peace in the family for her child that stays with me). Lifes lessons are sometimes hard to learn…even as a grandma!
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MariaG
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I am so glad you talked to the priest and have peace about this.
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yellowbird
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sweetpetunia
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I wasn’t going to say anything more, but since this post comes up if you google the terms “Catholic” and “tubes tied”, and two grave wrongs were claimed to be the “right thing to do” by a few people, I think some actual quotes might be beneficial for future readers. Here is the actual Church teaching:
Firstly, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, direct sterilization is not permitted for Catholics, even if one’s intentions are legitimate. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) says: “The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).” (CCC 2399)
Secondly, Catholics are not permitted to cooperate in sin. How do we cooperate in sin? This is what the Catechism has to say:
"Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
Firstly, according to the teachings of the Catholic Church, direct sterilization is not permitted for Catholics, even if one’s intentions are legitimate. The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) says: “The regulation of births represents one of the aspects of responsible fatherhood and motherhood. Legitimate intentions on the part of the spouses do not justify recourse to morally unacceptable means (for example, direct sterilization or contraception).” (CCC 2399)
Secondly, Catholics are not permitted to cooperate in sin. How do we cooperate in sin? This is what the Catechism has to say:
"Sin is a personal act. Moreover, we have a responsibility for the sins committed by others when we cooperate in them:
- by participating directly and voluntarily in them;
- by ordering, advising, praising, or approving them;
- by not disclosing or not hindering them when we have an obligation to do so;
- by protecting evil-doers." (CCC 1868)
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sweetpetunia
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Hmmmmm… I just want to point out that stating a position is heretical is not “name-calling”, it is a statement of fact. Heresy is “the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth, which must be believed with divine and Catholic faith.” A Catholic who holds an opinion contrary to the Catholic faith is at least materially a heretic. Material heretic and formal heretic are common theological terms, and to use them is not at all like calling someone “Benedict Arnold” or “Judas Iscariot”. It is simply a statement that a person’s opinions persist in conflict with Church teaching. If a person is in ignorance that their opinion is contrary to the teachings of the Church, then they are what is known as a material heretic. They may not be culpable for their heresy (for example, if they have what is known as “invincible” ignorance), but they do have the duty to correctly inform their conscience, as do we all (CCC 1783-1784). However, as the Catechism notes: “This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man ‘takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.’ In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.”(CCC 1791)
If, on the other hand, a person is aware that their beliefs are contrary to the teachings of the Catholic faith, and yet continues to obstinately persist in them, then they are what is known as formal heretics. Formal heretics who meet certain general conditions incur automatic excommunication. And here I’d like to point out that not a single one of the posters were specifically called heretics, even though heretical views were put forth, and rightly called out as such.
Also, when Catholics materially cooperate in grave sin, saying that it is the “right thing to do”, they are using evil words. The scriptures say: Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! (Isaih 5:20) Soren was calling the words evil, not the person. Even the Catechism itself uses the word “evil” in regards to sin without invincible ignorance (see above). We need to call evil for what it is, and Christ is our model in doing so.
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sweetpetunia
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Grammysue, thanks for coming back and sharing. Bless you! :tiphat:
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Soren_Itenu
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Amen, sweetpetunia.
When a statement is heretical, that statement should be condemned openly for the good of the Body.
When a statement is heretical, that statement should be condemned openly for the good of the Body.
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Phil_Marinus
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You are a champion… You are correct in what you say.
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