My daughter says she is Agnostic

[EasterJoy]

I would be really careful about wording it that way. You don’t want to teach your child that to respect people you have to practice their faith with them even if it’s something you don’t believe in. That could backfire. If one of the child’s siblings one day converted to Islam, Mormonism, etc you wouldn’t want your child to feel as though they had to practice one of those religions when visiting their sibling out of “respect”, would you?

Let us say that this was a Muslim child posting here, a teen with a Muslim parent insisting that the child attend the mosque. Let us say the child wanted to become a Christian. The answer would be that while the child could refrain from participating in rituals out of conscience and could investigate the Christian faith with no disrespect to his or her parents, it would be right to a) submit to the parent’s requirement that the child fully consider his or her reasons for leaving Islam before doing it on a whim and b) submit to parents who know about the child’s crisis of faith and yet still insist that the child continue to accompany the family for the religious duties of the household. Otherwise, you get a child who leaves Islam on a whim, goes out and marries someone while self-advertising as a religious convert (or an atheist or an agnostic; it doesn’t matter in this example), and then when the couple’s children are born the “overnight apostate” is seized with a desire to return to his or her religion of childhood. That is an outcome worth avoiding.

After all, I would not have a problem with an atheist parent who did not want their child rushing into a religious conversion, either. If the parent required the child to really self-educate about the full meaning of their change of heart, that is OK. That is the parent’s duty, to teach the child to make these momentous decisions only after the exercise of prudence and patience. Even if the child makes a decision the parent disagrees with, the parent will have done his or her duty to teach what wisdom he or she had to teach. That is not an onerous requirement on the child, but a good one.

 

[SuperLuigi]

There certainly should be, but these days I wonder if a lot of parents are losing that respect through trying to be “cool parents” or to be “their kids’ friends”.

What I think:

Not only that, they treat religion classes and the Sacraments as “well, I’ve done my job!” without even being much engaged in the formation unless they have to be.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Let us say that this was a Muslim child posting here, a teen with a Muslim parent insisting that the child attend the mosque. Let us say the child wanted to become a Christian. The answer would be that while the child could refrain from participating in rituals out of conscience and could investigate the Christian faith with no disrespect to his or her parents, it would be right to a) submit to the parent’s requirement that the child fully consider his or her reasons for leaving Islam before doing it on a whim and b) submit to parents who know about the child’s crisis of faith and yet still insist that the child continue to accompany the family for the religious duties of the household. Otherwise, you get a child who leaves Islam on a whim, goes out and marries someone while self-advertising as a religious convert (or an atheist or an agnostic; it doesn’t matter in this example), and then when the couple’s children are born the “overnight apostate” is seized with a desire to return to his or her religion of childhood. That is an outcome worth avoiding.

After all, I would not have a problem with an atheist parent who did not want their child rushing into a religious conversion, either. If the parent required the child to really self-educate about the full meaning of their change of heart, that is OK. That is the parent’s duty, to teach the child to make these momentous decisions only after the exercise of prudence and patience. Even if the child makes a decision the parent disagrees with, the parent will have done his or her duty to teach what wisdom he or she had to teach. That is not an onerous requirement on the child, but a good one.

I agree to a certain extent. But we are talking about an older teenager, and it is very difficult, if not impossible, for a parent to determine for a child when they have done enough research and soul-searching. By all means, urge them to read, think, pray, analyze, talk to people, whatever. But to go beyond urging and make that determination for a child that is that old? I don’t feel good about that.

I’m also not sure about the “religious duties of the household thing”. Once again, I see a lot of problems teaching a child that they have to conform to the faith of the people they live with. If the child grows up and marries someone whose parents practice Wicca, you don’t want your child to feel that they have to attend coven circles if they ever end up living with their spouse’s parents, do you? At a certain point, and I think that 17 is right around that point, parents have to acknowledge that their kids are their own people, and that they are going to have to relate to them as fellow adults on some (certainly not all) issues. Matters of faith qualify.

I’ve said before that I don’t think it’s necessarily right or wrong either way for a parent to force a child to go to church. To clarify, yes, I think it’s disrespectful to an older child, but I see it as one of those things that a child will get over quickly. It may not be “right” to make them go, but I don’t see it as damaging in the long run.

I also think that oftentimes parents insist that their teenage and adult children go to mass because it makes them feel good, and they can pretend that their child isn’t falling away from the faith, even for just a little while. I think in such cases the parent should level with their teenage or adult child and just say “Listen, I know you don’t like mass, and I know you don’t share my beliefs. But I tried to raise you to value this, and I know I failed, but it would mean a lot to me if you would be so kind as to go with me while you live here/are home visiting”. A lot of kids would take their parents up on that, even if only out of kindness.

 

[EasterJoy]

What I think:

Not only that, they treat religion classes and the Sacraments as “well, I’ve done my job!” without even being much engaged in the formation unless they have to be.

The children of very religious families and especially children who consider carefully whether their actions match their actual beliefs do go through this same thing. As a parent, though, the willingness to throw all religious duty and desire to worship the Lord out the window over a scruple on moral law as it is taught by the Church really requires intelligent and sensitive follow-up. It would not do to simply say, “OK, you’re almost an adult. Whatever you want, I won’t try to get you to consider your decision.”

What I think is telling is that a parent will allow a child to pull out of religion on the grounds of a difference of conscience with “the Establishment”, but will rarely let a child pull out of opportunities for higher education for the same reasons. If anything, it ought to be the opposite. Surely, though, a 17 year old does not get to decide whether or not to prepare for college. They get to decide if they’re going or not, but they don’t get to decide not to prepare. Likewise, they don’t get to decide if they will have an opportunity each week to open their hearts. They don’t have to do it, but they do not get to decide to deny themselves that opportunity.

 

[pensmama87]

I would be really careful about wording it that way. You don’t want to teach your child that to respect people you have to practice their faith with them even if it’s something you don’t believe in. That could backfire. If one of the child’s siblings one day converted to Islam, Mormonism, etc you wouldn’t want your child to feel as though they had to practice one of those religions when visiting their sibling out of “respect”, would you?

In general, I think these threads get a little melodramatic on both sides. When a teenager, particularly an adult or one bordering so close to adulthood loses their faith, I really don’t think that whether or not you force them to go to mass is going to have a huge effect in the long run. Sure, they may spend a few years in anger and resentment at their parents, but it won’t keep them from returning to church if they really believe. Likewise, not forcing them to attend is not going to wash away the first 17 years of religious practice and education, and I don’t think that a few extra months of mass attendance is going to make them believe again. The choice of whether or not you make them go is probably of little consequence.

However, I would not force a child to pray, say the rosary, go to confession, etc if they did not believe. It’s cruel to push someone into actively practicing a religion that they feel is incorrect, immoral, or that they just don’t believe in. Have them sit there quietly? Sure, they’ll be fine. But mandating active participation? That’s going a bit far.

I attended church through my early teens even though I didn’t believe because my elderly grandmother, who I loved dearly, was very devoted to her faith and church, so I went with her because I knew she wouldn’t be around much longer and I didn’t want to break her heart. Once she died, I stopped attending. However, going for her was a choice that I made on my own, though I did talk it out with my mom and had her support. (At this point, I didn’t admit to my mom, or to myself really, that I didn’t believe, I just knew that I didn’t like going to church and that it made me uncomfortable.) My husband, also an atheist, stopped believing when he was 16 or 17, but didn’t want to upset his family so he just told them that he was more comfortable attending mass on his own. He usually just left for an hour, hit a drive through, read in the parking lot, and then went home. Growing up, we both experienced a lot of discomfort paying lip service to a religion that we didn’t believe in. It just isn’t a good feeling to be surrounded by people who believe that something that transcends time and space is happening right at that very moment when you believe nothing of the sort.

When I say attend, I mean attend and nothing more. The teen can sit in the pew.

What she can’t do is make up an excuse to not attend Mass that sounds reasonable on its face but is really about sleeping in or avoiding something that she views as vaguely unpleasant.

As I said earlier in the thread, I was a teenager once. I had strong ideals (still do), but I also threw fits about being “right” to justify apathetic or lazy behavior.

 

[BettyBoop416]

As her parent, I think you should insist she attend Mass so long as she is living under your roof.

If she cannot accept Catholic teaching, I would tell her to seriously consider not receiving Christ at Communion.

While I understand where you are coming from here, she might view these as being mixed messages.

 

[Estevao]

The evil of sodomy is not really an issue that I think ought to make one consider agnosticism. Homosexuality is more of an in-house question within Christianity, it has nothing to do with whether or not 1. God exists or 2. God raised Jesus of Nazareth from the dead in vindication of his claims. As another poster ITT said, this might be a phase.

However I think it is imperative that she attend mass as long as she is under your roof. If I were her father and thus the head of the household, honestly I’d kick her out already for having admitted apostasy. My house, my rules, I’m not going to have any heathens in my house.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

However I think it is imperative that she attend mass as long as she is under your roof. If I were her father and thus the head of the household, honestly I’d kick her out already for having admitted apostasy. My house, my rules, I’m not going to have any heathens in my house.

That’s hilarious. I’ve never heard of anyone suddenly believing in god because they were threatened with homelessness if they didn’t. Of course, your child may lie to you about believing, in which case, you’re just pushing them into mortal sin to keep a roof over their heads and parents who love them.

And I’m pretty sure that if you discussed that plan with your priest, he would be far more horrified than supportive.

 

[MJJean]

And I’m pretty sure that if you discussed that plan with your priest, he would be far more horrified than supportive.

 

[Estevao]

That’s hilarious. I’ve never heard of anyone suddenly believing in god because they were threatened with homelessness if they didn’t. Of course, your child may lie to you about believing, in which case, you’re just pushing them into mortal sin to keep a roof over their heads and parents who love them.

And I’m pretty sure that if you discussed that plan with your priest, he would be far more horrified than supportive.

The idea isn’t to get the child to believe in God, I don’t require that of my children. The idea is simply to stop the open preaching of atheism or apostasy in my house lest it infect any of my other children or family. The child will simply have to remain absolutely quiet about his atheism or apostasy, bow his head and make the sign of the cross during family prayer, and attend mass with the family but refrain from communion. No lies are required, but if the child is going to be an open heathen, he can move out.

I really fail to see what’s so horrifying about this.

 

[Iron_Chariot]

No lies are required, but if the child is going to be an open heathen, he can move out.

I really fail to see what’s so horrifying about this.

I fail to see how you don’t see the problem here. You would rather your children lie to you than be open and honest.

You’re setting up a situation where you are knowingly encouraging your children to be dishonest about their own consciences in order to please you. You’re also setting up an expectation for your other children that freedom of conscience only applies to a head-of-household, an idea that I suspect you would reject in a situation where your child was the Catholic staying in a house of Wiccans. Would your child also than have to shut up and go through the motions of that religious practice?

Encouraging professions of belief via threat is a recipe for dishonesty if not disaster.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

I fail to see how you don’t see the problem here. You would rather your children lie to you than be open and honest.

You’re setting up a situation where you are knowingly encouraging your children to be dishonest about their own consciences in order to please you. You’re also setting up an expectation for your other children that freedom of conscience only applies to a head-of-household, an idea that I suspect you would reject in a situation where your child was the Catholic staying in a house of Wiccans. Would your child also than have to shut up and go through the motions of that religious practice?

Encouraging professions of belief via threat is a recipe for dishonesty if not disaster.

I would just let him have at. He’s a regular poster here, very young, doesn’t have kids yet, hateful towards atheists, and likes to be inflammatory. I suspect that he knows his “plan” would be disastrous for everyone (and illegal if the child is under 18), but it makes him sound passionate and committed, if not a little young and naive. Just let his opinion sit out there, it says more about him than you could.

 

[Estevao]

I would just let him have at. He’s a regular poster here, very young, doesn’t have kids yet, hateful towards atheists, and likes to be inflammatory. I suspect that he knows his “plan” would be disastrous for everyone (and illegal if the child is under 18), but it makes him sound passionate and committed, if not a little young and naive. Just let his opinion sit out there, it says more about him than you could.

Nice ad hominem. The fact that all the “catholic” posters at this “catholic” forum agree with the pro-abortion, pro-sodomy, pro-fornication, pro-socialism and pro-apostasy drivel you post says a lot about the current state of Catholicism.

It’s interesting how you know so much about my personal life too.

 

[Estevao]

I fail to see how you don’t see the problem here. You would rather your children lie to you than be open and honest.

You’re setting up a situation where you are knowingly encouraging your children to be dishonest about their own consciences in order to please you. You’re also setting up an expectation for your other children that freedom of conscience only applies to a head-of-household, an idea that I suspect you would reject in a situation where your child was the Catholic staying in a house of Wiccans. Would your child also than have to shut up and go through the motions of that religious practice?

Encouraging professions of belief via threat is a recipe for dishonesty if not disaster.

Once again another poster thinks that I’m encouraging lying which is not the case. Like I said, I will not allow one of my children to spread atheism or apostasy in my household. It’s that simple.

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Nice ad hominem. The fact that all the “catholic” posters at this “catholic” forum agree with the pro-abortion, pro-sodomy, pro-fornication and pro-apostasy drivel you post says a lot about the current state of Catholicism.

A lot of people agree with me, a lot of people disagree too. But that’s pretty much the standard experience of posting things on the internet.

Although I do make it a point to not advocate or push many of my points of view out of respect on this site, and there have been many times that I have requested that someone take a conversation to my inbox, because I didn’t think it would be in good taste to have the conversation publicly on a Catholic board. So that alone makes me skeptical of your claim that I post “pro-_____” anything, much less that Catholics are agreeing with me in droves. Also, the quotation marks around Catholic is uncharitable and unkind. Questioning the sincerity of someone’s religious convictions is against forum rules, so that’s a judgement you should probably refrain from passing against your fellow Catholics. Regardless, if you feel that any of my posts violate the CAF terms of service, feel free to report them to the mods.

 

[Estevao]

It doesn’t really surprise me that my code for raising children would not go over well here. This forum is replete with posters who marry people of other religions, divorce their spouses and wreck their homes and lives of their children, bring pornography and artificial contraception into their homes, don’t raise their children in the faith, don’t take their children to mass, don’t restrict what their children do with other children or on the internet, don’t send their kids to catholic schools and instead send them to public schools and colleges.

The simple idea that one’s household, i.e. one’s domestic church, would be forbidden to open displays of atheism or apostasy is such common sense that the post-vatican ii church would obviously find much to disagree with it, preferring instead to instruct the children in the ways of the world, leading countless souls right to the very edge of hell.

Shame on any parent who does not properly raise their children!!!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

It doesn’t really surprise me that my code for raising children would not go over well here. This forum is replete with posters who marry people of other religions, divorce their spouses and wreck their homes and lives of their children, bring pornography and artificial contraception into their homes, don’t raise their children in the faith, don’t take their children to mass, don’t restrict what their children do with other children or on the internet, don’t send their kids to catholic schools and instead send them to public schools and colleges.

The simple idea that one’s household, i.e. one’s domestic church, would be forbidden to open displays of atheism or apostasy is such common sense that the post-vatican ii church would obviously find much to disagree with it, preferring instead to instruct the children in the ways of the world, leading countless souls right to the very edge of hell.

Shame on any parent who does not properly raise their children!!!

Whatever bro. If the people on this board aren’t good enough for you, then feel free to find another site.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

Your daughter is nearly an adult. I’m in my mid-20’s, but I remember how much self-discovery I did between the ages of 17 and 22 or so. I’ll be honest- I stepped away from the church for quite some time as I worked on discovering WHO I was. I’ve had my faith shaken, I’ve gone through periods of doubt, but at the end of the day, I continue to return to the Church because the belief that God sent His son to save us is at the core of my belief.

Don’t force her to worship- that will only make her rebel.

I’ll be the first to tell you that I will self-identify as a cafeteria Catholic, and there are several key aspects where I disagree with the teachings of the church (including homosexual marriage, treatment of infertility, and elective abortion when a child is not compatible with life)

Some people may say that makes me NOT Catholic. But I firmly believe that my relationship is with Christ, not with a church, and the Catholic Mass is the vehicle in which I am most comfortable expressing that personal relationship with Christ in a public setting.

I will pray for your daughter as she discerns what she truly believes.

 

[UnCatholicBride]

It doesn’t really surprise me that my code for raising children would not go over well here. This forum is replete with posters who marry people of other religions, divorce their spouses and wreck their homes and lives of their children, bring pornography and artificial contraception into their homes, don’t raise their children in the faith, don’t take their children to mass, don’t restrict what their children do with other children or on the internet,** don’t send their kids to catholic schools and instead send them to public schools and colleges. **

The simple idea that one’s household, i.e. one’s domestic church, would be forbidden to open displays of atheism or apostasy is such common sense that the post-vatican ii church would obviously find much to disagree with it, preferring instead to instruct the children in the ways of the world, leading countless souls right to the very edge of hell.

Shame on any parent who does not properly raise their children!!!

Did I miss something about going to Catholic school being a requirement of being a “good” Catholic? Because frankly I had a great experience at my public (heathen) university and it’s where I grew MOST in my faith because my beliefs were called into question and I had to learn to defend my values and faith

 

[Cider]

I’d take the stance that going to mass is what we do as a family and as such you expect her to come also. I wouldn’t just throw up my hands and say whatever. I’d also suggest that she listen to Father Loya’s podcast A Body of Truth on Catholic Radio International, starting from the first episode because he does a very good job of explaining theology of the body and also explaining how God shows himself in the world. Episode ones starts with the core basics and then he builds on it.