My difficulties with the Catholic Faith

[RyanL]

Not true – one still has responsibilities towards everyone else and even oneself, and it’s quite possible to have a moral code without faith in a deity.

Riiiiiiiiight.

That’s why Dostoevsky, Sartre and Nietzsche all disagree with you. It’s because you understand the situation much better than them.



The only way you can get to anything properly called morality from atheism is to hide your premises. Some are simply better at hiding it than others.

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[Janet_S]

This is for you, Organist, and for the other atheists/agnostics who are reading this thread:

I was an atheist/agnostic for about 28 years and am a Catholic now. You might have found some peace about your decision to let go of religion and become an agnostic, but that peace will not last. Being an atheist/agnostic is not an easy life. I found that life doesn’t make sense and is devoid of purpose without God. I am sure they would deny this, but atheists and agnostics are building their houses on shifting sands, not on solid foundations. There can be no moral truths without a creator—all moral values are relative and situational. You cannot say Hitler was wrong, you cannot say Communism was wrong—there is no foundation for anything being right or wrong. Abortion, euthanasia, infanticide can all be justified according to the situation.

You say you can’t understand half their (atheists/theists/pantheist/agnostics/nihilists) arguments. Maybe their arguments aren’t coherent. Maybe nobody understands them.

I used to read all sorts of self-help books and New Age gurus, but the most coherent, sensible worldview is the Catholic worldview. It makes sense out of things like suffering and sacrifice—which most worldviews tell you to avoid at all costs. To live a Catholic life, though difficult, is to live a joyful life. Even if I knew there was no God, I would continue to live according to the CC’s teaching.

As far as why be a Catholic as opposed to other religions, for myself I could maybe become a Jew if I came to the conclusion that Christ was not the second person of the Holy Trinity, but I don’t think I could ever become a Protestant. If you are convinced that Christ lived, died, was resurrected and really was God, then you should become a Christian. And, if you are a Christian, then it makes sense to become a Catholic since the CC has the lineage back to the Apostles and since the CC is the historical Church. It doesn’t make sense to me why people reject the historical Church and the authority of the Pope and then become a member of a church started by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, or any other person. Were these church founders ordained by God to get the Church back on track? I have seen no evidence of this. The Church is always in need of reform, but I don’t think God intended for Christendom to be shattered into the thousands of denominations we now have. Reformation should occur within the Church, not as schismatic movements.

When you have doubts about the faith, think about the saints. My favorite saints (or future saints) are St Thomas Aquinas, St Francis of Assisi, Blessed Mother Teresa, and G K Chesterton. When I think about these people, it is hard not to believe God exists.

Finally, God is love. Get out there and put love into the world. Fr Thomas Dubay says that with love, comes wisdom.

 

[teachccd]

The problem I have with blind faith is that nearly all religions call for it. So, who am I to go with - the Catholic? the Mormon? the Jew? the Zoroastrian? the Muslim fundamentalist? I need evidence first. Without it, religion becomes a lucky dip; I might make a poor choice and end up strapping a bomb to myself.

I ask this with charity though it may seem harsh. With all of your denials of the evidence presented, could it be that nothing will ever be enough for you to believe? The fact is, really, that faith is not blind. But if you diregard all of the evidence what will ever be enough? Miracles happen everyday in all religions because God is Truth and all religions possess truth in varying degrees. We cannot throw out Catholicism because other religions mirror the miracles we see. There is only one God and He works through all of His people. But God is absolute Truth and He reveals Himself in the person of Jesus Christ who rose from the dead. No other religious prophets claim to be God and were witnessed rising from the dead.

Organist, if you seek comparative religion you will remain compartively religious. You accept so many things in this world on faith. You cannot convince me that you have personally unraveled DNA yet you accept what others have taught you about DNA. This list is endless.

Again, in charity with the risk of seeming rude, I ask: What exactly would ever be enough for you to believe? I don’t believe anyone here can offer you that until you decide it’s time. You are in my prayers…teachccd

 

[teachccd]

This is for you, Organist, and for the other atheists/agnostics who are reading this thread:

I was an atheist/agnostic for about 28 years and am a Catholic now. You might have found some peace about your decision to let go of religion and become an agnostic, but that peace will not last. Being an atheist/agnostic is not an easy life. I found that life doesn’t make sense and is devoid of purpose without God. I am sure they would deny this, but atheists and agnostics are building their houses on shifting sands, not on solid foundations. There can be no moral truths without a creator—all moral values are relative and situational. You cannot say Hitler was wrong, you cannot say Communism was wrong—there is no foundation for anything being right or wrong. Abortion, euthanasia, infanticide can all be justified according to the situation.

You say you can’t understand half their (atheists/theists/pantheist/agnostics/nihilists) arguments. Maybe their arguments aren’t coherent. Maybe nobody understands them.

I used to read all sorts of self-help books and New Age gurus, but the most coherent, sensible worldview is the Catholic worldview. It makes sense out of things like suffering and sacrifice—which most worldviews tell you to avoid at all costs. To live a Catholic life, though difficult, is to live a joyful life. Even if I knew there was no God, I would continue to live according to the CC’s teaching.

As far as why be a Catholic as opposed to other religions, for myself I could maybe become a Jew if I came to the conclusion that Christ was not the second person of the Holy Trinity, but I don’t think I could ever become a Protestant. If you are convinced that Christ lived, died, was resurrected and really was God, then you should become a Christian. And, if you are a Christian, then it makes sense to become a Catholic since the CC has the lineage back to the Apostles and since the CC is the historical Church. It doesn’t make sense to me why people reject the historical Church and the authority of the Pope and then become a member of a church started by Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Wesley, or any other person. Were these church founders ordained by God to get the Church back on track? I have seen no evidence of this. The Church is always in need of reform, but I don’t think God intended for Christendom to be shattered into the thousands of denominations we now have. Reformation should occur within the Church, not as schismatic movements.

When you have doubts about the faith, think about the saints. My favorite saints (or future saints) are St Thomas Aquinas, St Francis of Assisi, Blessed Mother Teresa, and G K Chesterton. When I think about these people, it is hard not to believe God exists.

Finally, God is love. Get out there and put love into the world. Fr Thomas Dubay says that with love, comes wisdom.

What a beautiful testimony. God Bless

 

[seremina]

My friend, you need to be careful of what you say. You’ve offended me and probably some others here. I’ll explain why.

First off, you call the flesh within the monstrance “decomposed”!? It has not decomposed, though its over 100 years old! Making careless statements like that is pretty offensive.

Miracles happen when God decides they happen. Its not up to us. What happens when God answers our every wanton demand? We become brats and God is reduced to being a circus. I can’t tell you how angry your attitude about miracles and want of proof makes me feel, but don’t worry–I am calm. I am just hoping your curiousity is slowly being answered.

Perhaps I could answer your questions in a cute way. Satan tempted Jesus to create stones into bread when Jesus was starving. Jesus refused. Satan offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the Earth if He would worship him. Jesus refused. Satan suggested that Jesus jump off the Temple’s parapet show that He’d be unharmed. It would be publicly seen and be a big miracle and people would easily believe Him. Jesus refused this as well. All this teaches something important. Selfishness, Conquest, and Flashyness, are not virtues of God. He does what He wants, and sometimes what He does is humble.

Jesus crucifixion and death and resurrection had its humble moments, sad moments, miraculous moments, so on. An emotional rollercoaster of delights mostly bittersweet. All this happened for us, and to teach us important lessons. All of the morals of Jesus’ and Mary’s life are reflected in each mystery of the Rosary. Its a beautiful thing to review and remember to keep struggling to apply them.

May I ask, how in the world does a cloth picture that survived explosions, fires, and floods, -not- be impressive? You have me puzzled here.

Lourdes’ cure cases was, and still are, being medically proven. One of the biggest critics was an Atheist doctor. He studied these cures. It took many decades, but he finally resigned himself to the truth and finally believed in what he witnessed and reported on.

Catholics -do- radiate something special. They radiate with the charity and love of Christ, helping together as one unit, to help the poor, the oppressed, the orphaned, etc. Catholics try their best to create God’s Kingdom here on Earth while they wait to pass on to God’s Kingdom in Heaven. They also radiate with something else special… they radiate with the humility and sacrifice that Jesus made for us. Catholics willingly suffer to help make reparations for others’ sins, no matter what form that suffering takes. A cross they had to bear for quite some time… an illness… a death in the family that happened… fasting… penance… sacrificing something they love… the list goes on and on.

I hope I’ve explained some things better for you, and have helped you ease up a little on your criticalness/cynicism/whatever it is called? so that you can pray and ponder on these things. Nobody decides what religion they are in just a night. It can take a long time.

 

[DavidGonzalez]

Keep in mind that, according to the Parable of the seeds, only a quarter of those who hear the message will actually bear fruit. Don’t let luke-warm Catholic discourage you too much. Of course you should try to evangelize; but don’t let them get to you. They’ll always be there.
I was reading a statistic that said only 20-30% of Spaniards who call themselves Catholic actually attend mass on a regular basis. In other words, only a quarter of all Catholics in Spain are bearing friut. Back in the fifties, it was about 60%. But so what? Does this discourage you?
Keep in mind that the culture (especially the Spanish culture) enforced the faith back then. Nowadays, the oppsite is true; if anything you’re discouraged from going to mass. So we know that those who take the faith seriously today are the real deal. They’re really bearing fruit! They are not the seeds that fell in shallow soil, sprouted a bit, and then fell away!
Please let the parable of the seeds comfort you.
You can clearly see the “seeds” that bear fruit not when the culture encourages Christianity but when it discourages Christianity.

 

[Sheeniac]

I was an atheist for 25 years, having been raised a lukewarm Catholic. The Holy Spirit brought me home in 2 ways - reading and viewing.

Reading - The Case for Christ, and the Case for Faith. They both took on the intellectual arguments I had from all of those years.

Viewing - I was at the 95% mark. I knew mentally that Rome was home, but emotionally I was still lacking. After seeing Pope Benedict, and reading about him, I could feel affection building. I watched (and still do) some of Archbishop Sheen’s old broadcasts on EWTN. That clinched it - I was hooked. Here were two men of God that I just LOVED. If I felt this way about them, God must be a gazillion times more wonderful.

 

[ble]

Organist,

Before the start of an old film, the Song of Bernadette, I recalled a phrase is displayed, “For those who believe, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not, no explanation will suffice.” It appears that all the posts that others write to you falls on the latter part of the phrase. All past miracles are dismissed while you view the church through the lens of scandals.

You wanted to see a “sign”, something that would move you and make you believe. Recall that even in Jesus’ time, the Pharisees want to see miracles so they would believe. Jesus did many miracles, but these miracles were dismissed because it wasn’t done before their eyes. Even if God were to appear before you, would you recognize him when the “God” that you’re expecting to see is Kingly, comes down in a fiery charriot in a cloud of thunder to sweep you off your feet? He could be there as a janitor who is cleaning up the streets waiting to talk to you. Would you even notice?

With all the special effects in movies today, all past miracles suddenly becomes unimpressive. Apparitions? Hey, there’s Star Trek’s teleporter. If you want God to compete on this level, I think you’ll be seriously disappointed. God does not want to impress. He does want to imprint his love on your heart, so that you will recognize him through all the people you meet.

I know this is a difficult journey as I’ve been through it the past two years. I just went through a retreat where I wrestle these questions back and fourth. God won. In this time and age, it is very easy to dismiss God from your life. Yes, you can go and try different religions, kind of like a fast food restaurant with different flavors of food to suit your mood. But it’ll be Christinanity, that God is the person serving you the food. Good luck on your journey.

Warmest regards,
-Ben

 

[organist]

Kevin42:

You can’t blame God for the choices that men make. Yes, ideally they should radiate goodness. However, if you look at the saints, I’m sure you will find that they certainly stand out…

I see what you’re saying. Catholics have freewill, and, despite being in God’s one true Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit, despite receiving His supernatural grace through the Sacraments, despite physically and spiritually consuming God on a regular basis, and despite knowing all the essential truths about life, they can and do behave no better than the next man in the majority of cases.

I don’t hold that this is impossible. But my kneejerk reaction, quite understandably, is one of scepticism. In my experience the same scenario is played out in most religions to some degree. They all say they have life’s answers and that if I join them I’ll go to heaven and find peace and become holy or something along those lines. But then I take a look at those currently practising the religion and I see a pretty unimpressive bunch.

If you’ll forgive the crude analogy, I’m reminded a bit of such things as weight loss products. You see these things advertised everywhere. They hold photographs up as examples of success and then proceed to claim that their particular product really is the answer. However, when you ask around, you discover that most of their clients have actually experienced little to no improvements, and those that have improved have done so in spite of the product.

Catholic_Mike:

I can relate, but I don’t think there is escape from that. Catholicism has difficult issues to think through, but so does any secular moral code…

Thanks for this. I like your reasoning and this course of action makes sense. I do pray from time to time, as I am sure many agnostics do. I stopped studying because I found it very tiresome and frustrating. I felt I was getting nowhere, understanding very little, and the mountain of knowledge I felt I had to climb in order to reach a satisfying conclusion on most matters seemed completely out of my reach. For that reason I have in recent years felt drawn towards a position of doubt on most things, even to the point of questioning my own existence.

I started practising the Faith when I was a teenager – about seventeen as I recall. I’d been introduced to the Church by relatives on my mother’s side a year earlier. My mother herself had just decided to convert and I guess the combined influence of her and my aunties and uncles led me to “give it a go.”

I had been very poorly instructed in the Faith and had to learn most of it on my own. My family are very simple people you see, and their understanding of the Faith is largely practical. I was young at the time and was convinced enough by the idea that God had singled me out to become Catholic – he had after all influenced my aunts and uncles to become Catholic, now my mother, and through this chain, me. All this coupled with a powerful experience I once had in prayer was enough to keep me in the Church at the time.

jonk:

Would you be able to p(name removed by moderator)oint the exact event and/or idea that made you start question your faith…

There were always nagging doubts in the back of my mind. For many years these doubts got pushed away, I just ignored them or said “I’ll deal with you later” and got on with things.

I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint exactly when I started to openly question the faith. I think it must have begun at university. People would come to me and ask me my opinion on complex matters. I tried my best to answer them with the mind of the Church, but I became aware of the weakness of my position and the strength of their arguments. In my studies too I was beginning to learn to think critically and increasingly becoming aware of the holes in the Faith.

Nevertheless, I soldiered on. I had bad experiences with faithless nuns, priests and laity; I attended my share of scandalous lectures and liturgies. I reacted to all this at the time by focusing on getting my degree over with, telling my examiners what they wanted to hear, and mixing in my spare time in increasingly conservative and traditionalist circles.

After a while I discovered there were just as many troubled souls in conservative and traditionalist camps as there were in the liberal camp. There didn’t appear to be much critical thinking or scholarship going on either; this made me wonder if these groups had any intellectual rigour. I continued on regardless, but the doubts kept nagging, and I guess I just began giving in to them.

Eventually it got the stage where going to Mass and telling people about the faith became ridiculous. I felt like a fraudster. That’s when I decided I had to stop going altogether.

 

[organist]

Janet S:

I was an atheist/agnostic for about 28 years and am a Catholic now. You might have found some peace about your decision to let go of religion and become an agnostic, but that peace will not last. Being an atheist/agnostic is not an easy life…

But being a Catholic afforded me little peace either. Not that I think the search for peace should be the main objective anyway. Truth is paramount in my opinion. I know of people who get peace from New Age practises which I am sure you would be opposed to.

I don’t really have a problem with having no solid moral truths and situation ethics. The system of utility makes sense to me, although it does have its flaws as do all moral systems. Catholic morality is situational to a degree anyway. Think of the law of double effect, for example.

I sometimes wonder whether this desire for black and white clarity in all things is a little childlike. When we are children we like things to be simple and make perfect sense - it certainly puts the mind at ease. But when we become adults it becomes clear that the world doesn’t work that way. Instead it is full of mystery and shades of grey.

I didn’t find life as a Catholic terribly joyful to be honest. There were times of great joy, no doubt. But there were also plenty of times of depression. Guilt is a truly horrible emotion to carry around with you; I’m very happy to be rid of it. And having a very dark view of the world - sin, the devil, demons and hellfire - I found pretty frightening and depressing. I remember going on an Ignatian retreat once and having nightmares for months afterwards.

teachccd:

I ask this with charity though it may seem harsh. With all of your denials of the evidence presented, could it be that nothing will ever be enough for you to believe?..

It doesn’t sound harsh to me; it seems reasonable. Yes, I would accept clear unequivocal evidence like the kind I’ve mentioned already.

True, I do accept many things in the world today without evidence, to some degree. But I’m pretty certain that, were I to examine the empirical evidence for things like DNA, I would be able to arrive at the same conclusion scientists have. If I am aware that a particular subject is still being debated by reputable scientists, then I’ll suspend judgment.

Not that things like DNA are all that important anyway. I can still continue living my life from day to day without consequence if I don’t fully understand it or I have not seen the evidence for it. On the other hand, when it comes to matters of religion, critical issues are at stake such as where I will spend eternity. Obviously you propose I accept Catholicism without evidence. But my next door neighbour, Abdul, expects me to choose Islam. In fact, it’s not just a toss up between Catholicism and Islam, I have hundreds of thousands of choices. Which one do I choose? It’s a lottery.

 

[ricmat]

I see what you’re saying. Catholics have freewill, and, despite being in God’s one true Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit, despite receiving His supernatural grace through the Sacraments, despite physically and spiritually consuming God on a regular basis, and despite knowing all the essential truths about life, they can and do behave no better than the next man in the majority of cases.

Well, perhaps the Catholics you see who are “no better than the next man” are not the Catholics who receive the sacraments regularly and know their faith. Those are the people anti-Catholics always point to (e.g. Hitler) and say “Look look, a Catholic!”

I know many people who came back to the faith, started receiving the sacraments (again), upgraded their catechesis, and it changed their lives tremendously for the better - by their own admission.

In any case, the tools exist within Catholicism to “be better” and we are all better off if we use them often.

 

[guanophore]

I see what you’re saying. Catholics have freewill, and, despite being in God’s one true Church which is guided by the Holy Spirit, despite receiving His supernatural grace through the Sacraments, despite physically and spiritually consuming God on a regular basis, and despite knowing all the essential truths about life, they can and do behave no better than the next man in the majority of cases.

What do you mean “better than the next man”? Better according to what measurement?

But then I take a look at those currently practising the religion and I see a pretty unimpressive bunch.

What do you think you might find impressive?

Thanks for this. I like your reasoning and this course of action makes sense. I do pray from time to time, as I am sure many agnostics do.

I am curious, to whom to agnostics pray? Or how might prayer be defined for such persons?

I stopped studying because I found it very tiresome and frustrating. I felt I was getting nowhere, understanding very little, and the mountain of knowledge I felt I had to climb in order to reach a satisfying conclusion on most matters seemed completely out of my reach.

Eccl 12:12
Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

All this coupled with a powerful experience I once had in prayer was enough to keep me in the Church at the time.

Now my curiosity is piqued!

 

[Mirdath]

This is for you, Organist, and for the other atheists/agnostics who are reading this thread:

Thanks for this, and especially for the courtesy not displayed by the poster directly above you – it’s much appreciated. I think we’re going to have to agree to disagree though

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Thanks again for the responses. I apologise for not being able to respond to everyone, but I have enjoyed reading your comments and very much appreciate your prayers and advice.

Below I’ve picked out a selection of points to respond to. But first I feel I should clarify a few things:

Basically my main argument in my original message was in bold at the top; the numbered points I listed below it were merely there to “flesh out” the argument.

Put more broadly, I could have expressed it like this:

1. 
   *]There exist an array of belief systems and theories about the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe
   *]Each belief system and theory has its own set of compelling arguments
   *]I do not possess the intellectual capacity to fairly compare, contrast and critique them all
   *]Therefore I am paralysed, incapable of deciding ultimately which is true
   
   And more specifically related to Catholicism, I could have said:
   
   If the Catholic God exists, he has:
   1. 
      *]Provided me with no clear unequivocal evidence for his existence
      *]Provided me with no clear unequivocal evidence for the idea that Catholicism is true
      On the contrary, he has:
      1. 
         *]Allowed innumerable competing religions and theories to flourish
         *]Allowed modern critical thinkers to pick gaping holes in the most fundamental of Catholic beliefs
         *]Created me with such a limited intellect that I am left confused by said religions, theories, and criticisms
         *]Allowed the Catholic Church to appear largely unattractive to me
         
         I hope that makes more sense.

1. 1. 1. 
         Your premise again is wrong. There is no ‘Catholic’ God, but One God for every man, woman and child.

 

[Janet_S]

Organist: I don’t really have a problem with having no solid moral truths and situation ethics. The system of utility makes sense to me, although it does have its flaws as do all moral systems. Catholic morality is situational to a degree anyway. Think of the law of double effect, for example.

Me–I never heard of the law of double effect. What is it, and is this part of official Catholic teaching?

Me–The system of utility doesn’t make sense to me because I value objective Truth. But it is a good way to deny the dignity of a human life when that person no longer serves a useful purpose or is seen to be a burden. Yet the problem within society is, who determines which lives are useful? What effect is there on the society as a whole when it fails to see the dignity and worth in each human life and fails to protect the innocent? Look at the futuristic novels like Brave New World and Lord of the World , and you can see how easily and logically societies can justify evil.

Me–You really think Catholic morality is situational? I don’t see it that way. Have you read JP II’s encyclical, “Veritatis Splendor?”

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_06081993_veritatis-splendor_en.html

Organist: I sometimes wonder whether this desire for black and white clarity in all things is a little childlike. When we are children we like things to be simple and make perfect sense - it certainly puts the mind at ease. But when we become adults it becomes clear that the world doesn’t work that way. Instead it is full of mystery and shades of grey.

Me–Adults still need guidance. The Catholic Church has 2000 years of experience. I think it’s worth listening to what the Church says. Shades of grey leave a lot of room open for error.

Organist: I didn’t find life as a Catholic terribly joyful to be honest. There were times of great joy, no doubt. But there were also plenty of times of depression. Guilt is a truly horrible emotion to carry around with you; I’m very happy to be rid of it. And having a very dark view of the world - sin, the devil, demons and hellfire - I found pretty frightening and depressing. I remember going on an Ignatian retreat once and having nightmares for months afterwards.

Me–We are different, of course, but an emotional predominance of depression and guilt has not been my experience in the CC. Did you suffer from scruples? Did you struggle with a particular teaching of the Church?

Me–Do you think you will never experience guilt if you are free from religion?

 

[jonk]

Your premise again is wrong. There is no ‘Catholic’ God, but One God for every man, woman and child.

I’m sure that what he meant was the Catholic understanding of God.

Our understanding of God is indeed the correct one, and He is the same One God for every man and woman, but organist is looking at this from an outsider’s perspective.

 

[jonk]

But then I take a look at those currently practising the religion and I see a pretty unimpressive bunch.

True, if by “practising” you mean “goes to church every now and again and receives communion without confession” and believes “it’s nice” or “it’s something to do.” It is up to the individual how much he wishes to follow the example of Jesus Christ with all the difficulties that that entails. But I would guess that secular humanist saints are considerably more rare, and often not all that saintly.

I stopped studying because I found it very tiresome and frustrating. I felt I was getting nowhere, understanding very little, and the mountain of knowledge I felt I had to climb

It helps to look at various objections to Catholicism individually and tackle each one one at a time. If there is an objection, there is likely someone who has at some point answered it, and you can read at least some of the objections and answers on various issues with much greater facility now than in the past thanks to the internet. The ultimate judgement on the truth or fallacy of a position depends on you, however, even though its truth is independent of you.

I would also say that if at the moment you cannot resolve the question of the existence of God, you could examine the proposition that Catholicism is a reasonable system of belief if there is one, objection by objection.

For that reason I have in recent years felt drawn towards a position of doubt on most things, even to the point of questioning my own existence.

It is good to question, but science often has a 95% threshhold for the probability of a certain hypothesis. While you can continue to doubt, you cannot affirm a null hypothesis solely on the basis of such doubt.

All this coupled with a powerful experience I once had in prayer was enough to keep me in the Church at the time.

Unfortunately, feelings are fickle, and without reason, faith often dissipates. It is nevertheless impressive that just “giving it a go” had any impact at all.

There were always nagging doubts in the back of my mind. For many years these doubts got pushed away, I just ignored them or said “I’ll deal with you later” and got on with things.

Eeek. They’ve stacked up and now you’re dealing with having to climb a “mountain of knowledge.”

I can’t p(name removed by moderator)oint exactly when I started to openly question the faith. I think it must have begun at university. People would come to me and ask me my opinion on complex matters. I tried my best to answer them with the mind of the Church, but I became aware of the weakness of my position and the strength of their arguments. In my studies too I was beginning to learn to think critically and increasingly becoming aware of the holes in the Faith.

While you are mistaken, if that is the position you have reached with due diligence in learning and examining the Catholic position, then I cannot but think that your decision to cease being Catholic was an honest one. I pray that God leads you back, however.

Nevertheless, I soldiered on. I had bad experiences with faithless nuns, priests and laity; I attended my share of scandalous lectures and liturgies

Same here.

Eventually it got the stage where going to Mass and telling people about the faith became ridiculous. I felt like a fraudster. That’s when I decided I had to stop going altogether.

I once again commend you for listening to your conscience.

And having a very dark view of the world - sin, the devil, demons and hellfire - I found pretty frightening and depressing. I remember going on an Ignatian retreat once and having nightmares for months afterwards.

Oh but the world isn’t a rosy place. You don’t have to think of the preternatural to be frightened. Sure, the UK ain’t bad, but think of the tens of millions of adults who were murdered on a massive scale in the twentieth century alone. Horrors much like the Holocaust happened before and after the Second World War. Sin does exist and it offends God. But Christianity gives us hope. Yes, the Devil exists, but God is infinitely good and infinitely powerful, and He is victorious in Jesus Christ. And which is more depressing - that we will cease to exist and our bodies will be cremated or eaten by worms, or that even though the latter will happen to our bodies, “God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” (John 3:16)?

Catholic morality is situational to a degree anyway. Think of the law of double effect, for example.

I haven’t thought about these things in a long time, but wouldn’t the fundamental difference be such that whereas in situational morality the definition of what is “good” and “evil” changes, the principle of double effect doesn’t deny the evilness of one of the effects but instead rules on its permissibility?

All the best, my friend.

 

[jonk]

The system of utility does indeed have problems. One could argue that ridding the world of a certain population would have the effect of maximising goodness. Hitler thought that. Many a communist did too. After all, what are a few (million) lives lost in the pursuit of an earthly paradise but a statistic?

Things may not necessarily be black and white in deciding what to do, but evil acts are always evil.

 

[Benedictus]

True, if by “practising” you mean “goes to church every now and again and receives communion without confession” and believes “it’s nice” or “it’s something to do.”

How many priest-molestors celebrated Mass everyday? Most of them, I imagine. There are the judgmental types who are all too common among devout, religious people. Then there are the ones who want to impose their religious beliefs on everyone through various means (violence, the government, schools, etc.).

Sure there are lots of good people, but I’m not convinced that overall, religion makes better people. Even if devout people are better, nicer, saintlier than the non-religious type, we run the risk of confusing correlation with causation. Maybe “good” people are drawn to religion because of a perception that that’s what good people do.

It helps to look at various objections to Catholicism individually and tackle each one one at a time. If there is an objection, there is likely someone who has at some point answered it, and you can read at least some of the objections and answers on various issues with much greater facility now than in the past thanks to the internet.

I would also say that if at the moment you cannot resolve the question of the existence of God, you could examine the proposition that Catholicism is a reasonable system of belief if there is one, objection by objection.

Even if we set aside the question of whether or not God even exists, the problem is that I don’t see any special reason to accept Catholicism instead of one of the other thousands of religions. I’ll admit that Catholicism is more reasonable than a lot of religions out there. I could never see myself becoming a floor-diving Pentacostal or a Fundamentalist who thinks the world is only 6,000 years old. But there are other “reasonable” religions out there whose difficulties aren’t any greater than Catholicism’s. And then there are the religions I know nothing about. Shouldn’t I study those before I make a decision about which religion to follow?

There are specific hang-ups I have with Catholicism and Christianity: Original Sin, the Old Testament God being evil, etc. For the most part, these problems arose well after I started to question whether I really believed, but they do present roadblocks that would need to be dealt with before I could be a whole-hearted Catholic again.

Having said all this though, the primary problem I have is still the existence of a personal God. If I don’t really believe in God, objections to specific doctrines don’t seem to matter that much.

The primary reason I consider myself a ‘borderline’ agnostic and not a true agnostic is that I have trouble explaining why most people believe in a god of some sort. There seems to be something about our nature that seeks something greater than the physical world we see. Perhaps it’s just a curious aspect of the human brain that makes us religious or superstitious. Maybe it’s a by-product of evolution that once served a useful purpose.

 

[MTD]

Guilt is a truly horrible emotion to carry around with you; I’m very happy to be rid of it. And having a very dark view of the world - sin, the devil, demons and hellfire - I found pretty frightening and depressing.

Oh, that sounds ominous. I find that most, if not all, atheists and agnostics do not believe in the existence of God because of some guilt from their pasts. I’m not saying this is the case with you. However, St. Augustine’s statement applies to all too many atheists and agnostics: “He who denies the existence of God has some reason for wishing that God did not exist.”

I remember going on an Ignatian retreat once and having nightmares for months afterwards.

Well, the Ignatian spirituality probably doesn’t fit your personality. But that’s no reason to reject Catholicism on the whole as there are other spiritualities more in keeping with your emotional/psychological needs, e.g., Salesian spirituality.

The primary reason I consider myself a ‘borderline’ agnostic and not a true agnostic is that I have trouble explaining why most people believe in a god of some sort. There seems to be something about our nature that seeks something greater than the physical world we see.

Very good observation; I’m quite impressed with your honesty in this.

Maria