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Benedictus
Guest
Yes, I’ve seen that link before. It didn’t seem to have any points that I hadn’t heard before.
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seremina
Guest
Did you read my responses carefully? I’m going to have to further clarify.
And no, I am not suggesting a debate. I’m merely giving you information and hoping to help you see things clearly with your mind.
If you think God is evil for this, then I’m sorry to say Satan has a fair hold on your mind. He WILL use this to turn you from God. I also think you’re forgetting that children imitate their parents. There’s no hope for those children, for its difficult to stop doing what you’ve learned to do from childhood. So it was a mercy that God commanded them to be killed. They might’ve spent their whole lives struggling and being bitter in their difficulty with learning a new concept of what’s moral.
Then I guess you need to talk to Sisera’s mother about why she figured her son would be treating women as spoils of war. Sisera was not Jewish; he was Pagan, as far as I can tell. He’d have no qualms about doing this, and his mother obviously had no qualms with thinking it.
You cannot argue with God’s plans. Why he let those nations invade Jerusalem and do those awful things, is something we should ask God when we get to Heaven. For now, all we can do is thank God for helping the Israelites fight the invaders and put an end to the violence and rape. To blame God for what sins people do is VERY silly.
And no, I am not suggesting a debate. I’m merely giving you information and hoping to help you see things clearly with your mind.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
The Old Testament is about God’s right to judge by and large. It is true that our own sins have condemned us all to death. God’s commands to the Isrealites (which wasn’t indiscriminate) was to establish a holy land which was purified. These nations had been judged.
In fact the Israelites disobeyed God, and their disobedience caused them problems for generations.
Yes, it does sound harsh, but such is judgment under the law. Now we have grace.
In fact the Israelites disobeyed God, and their disobedience caused them problems for generations.
Yes, it does sound harsh, but such is judgment under the law. Now we have grace.
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Aleii
Guest
So you are saying that a 2 year old, a 6 year old, an 11 year old, who grow up in a bad home have no chance of ever negating what they’ve observed from their parents in their early years? Are you in fact saying that the next 50+ years of their life are irrelevant because the “damage has already been done”, and that nothing, not even placement of these children with Catholic families, would have changed that?
If you are saying that, then would you say that adoption/foster care will not help children who have grown up in a terrible home, as I would think this would be a similar situation?
Its quite difficult for me to agree with the statement that there is no hope for a child, even if their surroundings have been terrible.
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InLight247
Guest
Faith and intellect are two different things. Jesus said unless we are like little children, we cannot enter the Kingdom. Faith does not require high education. A simple mind can accept God easier than a complicated one.
One can see God every where, there is no way to deny this fact.
When I look at the galaxy, the beautiful mountains and magnificent oceans, the numerous kind of trees, flowers, and animals, the complicated and amazing human body and soul, or even a flower pedal, I see the Wisdom, I know there is a Creator, the God.
When I was a teenager, one day I stood on a busy street corner, looking at cars and people hurrying back and forth, I asked myself, “What is the meaning of life that a person dies to nothingness after all these busyness? “ At that very moment, I realized
if life has any meaning, there must be a God and an eternity. I was fifteen at the time.
Faith is a choice. After I knew the existence of God, I was seeking for the true One. I chose to be a Catholic because Jesus is Love, and Catholic Church is the one Jesus personally instituted. I chose to believe in this Jesus and the Church he established.
After becoming a Catholic, I repeatedly experience this living God in my daily life. My many personal encounters with Jesus further deepened my faith.
Life is a series of choices. Accepting Jesus as my Lord and my God is the best choice I have ever made in my life.
I pray God to give you the grace of making the same good choice.
J
Janet_S
Guest
Looking at creation is a good place to start if you want to discover God. Wonder is the basis of worship.
But so often we suffer from boredom and fail to see the beauty and wonder that is all around us.
I don’t have the exact quote, but Chesterton said (I think it was in his book about Dickens):
We don’t live in the best of all possible worlds. We live in the best of all impossible worlds, and it’s only made possible through God.
Try to rediscover the world as if you were a child, as if you were looking at it for the first time.
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crmcfl
Guest
“Firstly, I don’t even know that God himself exists.” - Why don’t you ask Him and then listen to what He has to say? Keep a notebook.
“Secondly, how can I possibly believe in or indeed relate to and ‘love’ Jesus?” - to know Him is to love Him. This is true of anything and anyone. Ask Him to help you with this. You may not know Him other than intellectually, but He knows you very well. Ask Him to bring you into contact with people and things that will help you get to know Him better. And then be open to what and who He sends.
“the Catholics I have met online and in real life have been uninspiring hypocritical and scandalous, and my experience of the liturgy, sacraments, and general Catholic way of life has been uninspiring and scandalous.” - Sounds like you may be hanging around the wrong people. Try hanging around Catholics who are really living their faith. They’re out there and there are a lot of them. Also, please remember that scandals are scandals precisely BECAUSE they’re out of the ordinary. For every priest who makes the news, there are many more that we never hear about who are quietly doing God’s work. To the media, these stories are boring. Check out EWTN and Catholic Answers for stories of people truly living their faith. Fr. Corapi - from drug addict/Hollywood millionaire to priest is only one example. Earth is not heaven. If you expect it to be, you’ll always be disappointed. This world is a battleground between good and evil. Look at Jesus’ own followers. Peter was a liar and a coward. Paul was a murderer. Yet look at what they became in spite of how they started out. Judas took another path. Free will. We’re all invited, but it’s our choice how we respond. Makes for a messy world.
Suggested reading:
Mother Angelica’s Answers, Not Promises - Mother Angelica
The Screwtape Letters - C.S. Lewis
These books helped me when I was going through some of the things you’re going through now. Any library should have them. Perhaps you’ll find them useful.
“Secondly, how can I possibly believe in or indeed relate to and ‘love’ Jesus?” - to know Him is to love Him. This is true of anything and anyone. Ask Him to help you with this. You may not know Him other than intellectually, but He knows you very well. Ask Him to bring you into contact with people and things that will help you get to know Him better. And then be open to what and who He sends.
“the Catholics I have met online and in real life have been uninspiring hypocritical and scandalous, and my experience of the liturgy, sacraments, and general Catholic way of life has been uninspiring and scandalous.” - Sounds like you may be hanging around the wrong people. Try hanging around Catholics who are really living their faith. They’re out there and there are a lot of them. Also, please remember that scandals are scandals precisely BECAUSE they’re out of the ordinary. For every priest who makes the news, there are many more that we never hear about who are quietly doing God’s work. To the media, these stories are boring. Check out EWTN and Catholic Answers for stories of people truly living their faith. Fr. Corapi - from drug addict/Hollywood millionaire to priest is only one example. Earth is not heaven. If you expect it to be, you’ll always be disappointed. This world is a battleground between good and evil. Look at Jesus’ own followers. Peter was a liar and a coward. Paul was a murderer. Yet look at what they became in spite of how they started out. Judas took another path. Free will. We’re all invited, but it’s our choice how we respond. Makes for a messy world.
Suggested reading:
Mother Angelica’s Answers, Not Promises - Mother Angelica
The Screwtape Letters - C.S. Lewis
These books helped me when I was going through some of the things you’re going through now. Any library should have them. Perhaps you’ll find them useful.
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Faith1960
Guest
I’m not the OP but I’m not sure what you meant by your last question. Just this week I was talking with a woman (Protestant) who was saying that her 40+ year old son doesn’t go to church nor has he or his wife brought their kids up in church. She was very sad about it and said something about how once he went to college, that was it for him. She thinks there’s something about having a college education that ruins people’s faith. Do you feel the same way?Oh my, what a distressing post! I don’t want to derail the OP topic, but I would love to hear more about how this happened to you. Was it gradual? Did you read or hear something that drew you away from your faith? Was there some type of “higher education” involved?
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blessedtoo
Guest
I wouldn’t suggest this is always the case. However, for an interesting illustration given to us by the OP:
I’ve read enough about the scandalous behavior of “teachers” in “Catholic” universities to understand that a young persons still-forming faith can be seriously undermined by the opinions of liberal professors.
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blessedtoo
Guest
Okay. Well, you posted this:
And the question in the link I gave you was:
Seems like a pretty similar question and Jimmy thoroughly and completely dissects this question and answers it thoughtfully. If you have “heard this all before” than why do you feel your questions are still unanswered?
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Faith1960
Guest
I’m a 46 y/o cradle Catholic who was agnostic for a period of time, during my early adult years. It wasn’t a choice I made; one can’t choose or not choose what they believe or don’t believe any more than they can choose to like or dislike the color blue. I got tired of people who had the attitude I was doing something evil by not being convinced of the same beliefs they had. Over time my beliefs eventually changed and I do believe in God now but again, that wasn’t a choice, either, although I longed for God, or something to believe in even when I wasn’t sure I believed in Him.
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jack_hawkins
Guest
Faith1960, would you say that people being overly judgmental and prescriptive affected your faith at all during those early adult years?
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Faith1960
Guest
I have to agree with this. If any of you have been reading the Jesus’ Tomb thread you might see some parallels to what’s being discussed here. Forgive the cliche’, but God gave me a brain and He expects me to use it. To do otherwise leads some people to the sort of tragedies you mentioned above, though I’m not suggesting the Catholic Church is in any way like the cults you spoke about. Still, to blindly follow without question is to not use the amazing brain the Lord blessed us with.
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Faith1960
Guest
Do you mean the people who were judgemental prior to me becoming agnostic or during that period when I was unsure?
If you mean before then, I don’t think so, although I do recall even being uncertain about the existence of God periodically during my childhood. I went to a Catholic grade school so I was surrounded by other Catholics. I lived in a neighborhood with many Catholics, came from a family of Catholics and still, I wasn’t sure. Around the age of 19 or 20 I started to hear the opinions of other people who dared to admit they were agnostic, particularly a friend of mine (who, btw, was another neighbor, though she wasn’t Catholic).
I think the only person I told my doubts to was my mother, so, when I first heard my friend talking freely about being agnostic, I was shocked. The more questions she posed, the more I eventually began to wonder about the same things she did. Not so much at the time she was talking about this, but after a while she and I went our separate ways, so, over the course of about a decade I started thinking about the same things she talked about.
I think that the more people harped on me about having to believe the more they goaded my stubborn side and made me more reluctant to consider that I might be wrong and that God really did exist. I don’t recall peoples’ judgemental attitudes affecting my faith as much as the fact that the more they talked to me about this, the more stubborn I became, the more fanatical I thought they were and the less credibility I gave them.
If they would have just allowed me to have the freedom to make up my own mind, the process might have gone a bit more quickly, or at the very least, made me respect them and their beliefs more.
J
jack_hawkins
Guest
TY Faith1960 - yes that all makes sense:thumbsup: We need to find our own way in faith, and when people try to push us around then the natural instinct can be to react - I know I tend to be that way. And that is not necessarily rebellion against God, but against man’s misrepresentations of God’s will very often.
Yes, I totally agree God wants us to use our brains - look at St Jerome. Would he be put off by people saying “no, you just have to believe this because the Church must be right” - yes I think he would.
And protecting people from outside ideas just makes it all the more of a shock when we hear dissenting opinions which in some cases are better reasoned than what we hear from some Christians.
PS I didn’t mean to equate the Church with those cults merely suggesting if you extrapolate obedience to authority you can end up there
Yes, I totally agree God wants us to use our brains - look at St Jerome. Would he be put off by people saying “no, you just have to believe this because the Church must be right” - yes I think he would.
And protecting people from outside ideas just makes it all the more of a shock when we hear dissenting opinions which in some cases are better reasoned than what we hear from some Christians.
PS I didn’t mean to equate the Church with those cults merely suggesting if you extrapolate obedience to authority you can end up there
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Aleii
Guest
If you look at the comments section there, you can see that this isn’t a cut and dried “answer”. There are a lot of issues that remain.
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Janet_S
Guest
Jack Hawkins says: Yes, I totally agree God wants us to use our brains - look at St Jerome. Would he be put off by people saying “no, you just have to believe this because the Church must be right” - yes I think he would.
And protecting people from outside ideas just makes it all the more of a shock when we hear dissenting opinions which in some cases are better reasoned than what we hear from some Christians.
PS I didn’t mean to equate the Church with those cults merely suggesting if you extrapolate obedience to authority you can end up there
My response: We have brains and are supposed to use them, but not all issues about doctrine and morals are up for debate. There is objective Truth in the world. If Jesus were alive today, and you asked Him, “Is is okay for women to abort their babies if they have a really good reason,” what do you think He would say? Do you think he would say, “Use your brain, you can figure it out.” I doubt it. He did not leave us orphans. He left us a Church to guide us about objective Truth.
Christ and His Church are one. “He who hears you, hears me.” From the Documents of Vatican II, Lumen Gentium states that “Christ communicated truth and grace to all through the Church.” Therefore, for matters of doctrine and morals, listen to the Church as if it were Christ speaking directly to you.
The CC is a great defender of freedom, but there is a delicate balance between using your brain and conforming to the Church’s guidance. This quote from GKC helps to illustrate this balance:
chesterton.org/gkc/theologian/whycatholic.htm
"There is no other case of one continuous intelligent institution (CC) that has been thinking about thinking for two thousand years. Its experience naturally covers nearly all experiences; and especially nearly all errors. The result is a map in which all the blind alleys and bad roads are clearly marked, all the ways that have been shown to be worthless by the best of all evidence: the evidence of those who have gone down them.
On this map of the mind the errors are marked as exceptions. The greater part of it consists of playgrounds and happy hunting-fields, where the mind may have as much liberty as it likes; not to mention any number of intellectual battle-fields in which the battle is indefinitely open and undecided. But it does definitely take the responsibility of marking certain roads as leading nowhere or leading to destruction, to a blank wall, or a sheer precipice. By this means, it does prevent men from wasting their time or losing their lives upon paths that have been found futile or disastrous again and again in the past, but which might otherwise entrap travelers again and again in the future. The Church does make herself responsible for warning her people against these; and upon these the real issue of the case depends. She does dogmatically defend humanity from its worst foes, those hoary and horrible and devouring monsters of the old mistakes. Now all these false issues have a way of looking quite fresh, especially to a fresh generation."
And protecting people from outside ideas just makes it all the more of a shock when we hear dissenting opinions which in some cases are better reasoned than what we hear from some Christians.
PS I didn’t mean to equate the Church with those cults merely suggesting if you extrapolate obedience to authority you can end up there
My response: We have brains and are supposed to use them, but not all issues about doctrine and morals are up for debate. There is objective Truth in the world. If Jesus were alive today, and you asked Him, “Is is okay for women to abort their babies if they have a really good reason,” what do you think He would say? Do you think he would say, “Use your brain, you can figure it out.” I doubt it. He did not leave us orphans. He left us a Church to guide us about objective Truth.
Christ and His Church are one. “He who hears you, hears me.” From the Documents of Vatican II, Lumen Gentium states that “Christ communicated truth and grace to all through the Church.” Therefore, for matters of doctrine and morals, listen to the Church as if it were Christ speaking directly to you.
The CC is a great defender of freedom, but there is a delicate balance between using your brain and conforming to the Church’s guidance. This quote from GKC helps to illustrate this balance:
chesterton.org/gkc/theologian/whycatholic.htm
"There is no other case of one continuous intelligent institution (CC) that has been thinking about thinking for two thousand years. Its experience naturally covers nearly all experiences; and especially nearly all errors. The result is a map in which all the blind alleys and bad roads are clearly marked, all the ways that have been shown to be worthless by the best of all evidence: the evidence of those who have gone down them.
On this map of the mind the errors are marked as exceptions. The greater part of it consists of playgrounds and happy hunting-fields, where the mind may have as much liberty as it likes; not to mention any number of intellectual battle-fields in which the battle is indefinitely open and undecided. But it does definitely take the responsibility of marking certain roads as leading nowhere or leading to destruction, to a blank wall, or a sheer precipice. By this means, it does prevent men from wasting their time or losing their lives upon paths that have been found futile or disastrous again and again in the past, but which might otherwise entrap travelers again and again in the future. The Church does make herself responsible for warning her people against these; and upon these the real issue of the case depends. She does dogmatically defend humanity from its worst foes, those hoary and horrible and devouring monsters of the old mistakes. Now all these false issues have a way of looking quite fresh, especially to a fresh generation."
M
MTD
Guest
You are correct to a certain extent. In other words, faith is a gift from God. Those who have it believe, those who don’t have it don’t believe. BUT…1) When God does grant the gift of faith, one does have to choose to accept it, in accord with free will; God doesn’t force His grace on anyone. 2) Faith is nourished and increased through prayer and acts of faith; in other words, we must exercise our faith if we want to keep it. And that also takes a choice. So there’s a fine balance here.
Maria
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Catholic_Mike
Guest
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jack_hawkins
Guest
Well, the problem with saying that is that very often the doctrines that are the most fragile and questionable are the ones labelled “not for debate”.
If something is self-evidently objective, what is the harm in debating it?
Take abortion. I think that if a mother’s life is seriously at risk, then abortion is justified. I know some priests agree with that although I am not sure what the official Church line is.
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