My disillusioned marriage (UPDATE)

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IamRefreshed, of course it goes without saying that we are assuming she has already done this out of love for her husband and would never ever subject him possibly to someone else’s disease. He is an innocent party in all of this. She is looking for help to see if there is any marriage. He still loves her (obviously) and wants to make it work. Out of charity for him (and out of respect for her apparent conversion of heart) we are giving her advice that is based on presuming their marriage is valid.

I do think they need to have some outside limit to this. This can’t go on for 5 or 20 more years. At some point it comes to “fish” or “cut bait.” Out of charity to him. So he can get an annulment and move on.

But right now he is respecting his vows, she is trying to reconcile. So supporting THAT is charitable.
 
Does your husband know that you engaged in sex with someone else?

Have you been tested for STD’s? If not, please do so before following everyone’s advice to bed your husband.
Yes, and yes. For what it’s worth, iamrefreshed, through your intentionally callous responses you continue to hurt my attitude toward my marriage, rather than help. If that’s your goal, keep it up. If you do genuinely want me to reconcile my marriage, it might be best for you to resist the temptation to inject your noxious comments into this thread.
 
Yes, and yes. For what it’s worth, iamrefreshed, through your intentionally callous responses you continue to hurt my attitude toward my marriage, rather than help. If that’s your goal, keep it up. If you do genuinely want me to reconcile my marriage, it might be best for you to resist the temptation to inject your noxious comments into this thread.
I don’t think he is being intentionally callous. Have you considered that what you might be hearing from him is his pain at hearing a situation that is too familiar to him?

I’m familiar with his posts in the past and what he has been through in his marriage.

It does seem like in reading this thread and your last one, that it is all about your feelings and what you get out of the deal.

What you don’t seem to like to hear is the pain that is inflicted on the good man who has stood by his marriage.

I’m glad that you are trying to do something positive, but I don’t think you should ignore this side of the whole situation. It’s real.
 
The validity of their marriage should not have anything to do with whether or not they reconcile. If her husband wants an annulment I am sure he can get one. If the marriage is invalid and they do reconcile will they be living in sin even though they are married? Will God strike them down?

I do agree with the part about selfishness and it all being about her. Pope John Paul II said the number 1 cause of divorce today is selfishness and narcassism. But Augustana is here trying to figure things out. She came here because she is trying to do the right thing. It’s harder and harder to to that when the world is giving everyone a sense of entitlement and have to have it now mentality. There isn’t many people around that would say “hey I screwed up and I hurt the person who loves me the most in the world”. She is at least trying to change her thinking. Empathy is a thing of the past people today care more about number 1 than anything not just Augustana it is everywhere.

Augustana how long after your divorce did you find the other guy and how long after breaking up with him you went back to your husband? In the last couple years were you able to be without someone in your life to actually find herself and be happy with who you are.

As far as her husband goes he is an adult. He can only be tortured as much as he let’s himself be. If or when he won’t take anymore he will take his boys out of her purse and walk away.
 
… how long after your divorce did you find the other guy and how long after breaking up with him you went back to your husband? In the last couple years were you able to be without someone in your life to actually find herself and be happy with who you are.
Right after the divorce, I started “dating” the other man, but it started out casual (a few dates here and there) and evolved into something serious after a few months (1.5 years after we were separated.) After a month or two of “honeymoon period,” I realized that we would never be compatible and gradually spent less and less time with him. I was single for a few months before beginning this reconciliation process. (I knew I wanted to try to reconcile during this time, but wanted some time off so it didn’t feel like a rebound relationship to either one of us.)

I agree about your point that we are all selfish creatures. Our instinct is to focus on our own pain and quest for joy. I am focusing on my quest for love, meanwhile iamrefreshed is focusing on his pain and, in a way, identifying with my husband and punishing me for the way his wife treated him. Perhaps if iamrefreshed can stop trying to punish me, I could learn something valuable from him. As it is, everything he says is phrased as an assault, so my natural reaction is to become defensive. I came to this forum (and returned to this forum) to announce that I had failed and to ask for support in overcoming my own defects. There’s no need to take me down a notch, iamrefreshed. I’m already there.

Now, on to the “meat” of my latest update… We attended the first Retrouvaille post session today. It was a huge relief to me!

First, the other couples felt the same sense of “losing steam” around Thursday. Whew! I was not alone!

Second, I had thought that we would spend six more weeks dialoguing and I kept thinking “this is interesting, but it’s not going to get us anywhere!” Well, today we learned that dialoguing is a very important STEP in a greater PROCESS. Over the next couple weeks, we will learn the rest of the process and will learn how dialoguing is just a piece to the puzzle.

Last night, I took GoBison’s suggestion. I drove up to my husband’s house and watched the Greatest Hockey Team in the World take on the Second Greatest Hockey Team in the World. I made a conscious decision to be physically affectionate and slept in the same bed as him. No sex, but lots of cuddling and kissing. We let ourselves have a relaxing evening without analyzing our relationship or ourselves. This morning at Retrouvaille, we were playful and felt “in sync” with each other. (Not an unusual feeling for us, but considering my disheartened feeling earlier this week, it was refreshing.)

I am going to his hockey game now, and then to mass with him tomorrow morning. I’m trying to just take it one day at a time and not stress so much about whether or not I see love (the feeling) on the horizon.
 
Again, I have to stress, Augusta. When you ask people who were married long-term, most of them will say they didn’t always feel love for their spouse. Sometimes they couldn’t stand each other. But their marriage wasn’t about “feelings” anymore than one’s overall health and lifespan is about “temperatures” at any particular day or hour. Their marriages grew and thrived and survived because they didn’t let “feelings” get in the way of their overall goal of getting each other to heaven.
 
Again, I have to stress, Augusta. When you ask people who were married long-term, most of them will say they didn’t always feel love for their spouse. Sometimes they couldn’t stand each other. But their marriage wasn’t about “feelings” anymore than one’s overall health and lifespan is about “temperatures” at any particular day or hour. Their marriages grew and thrived and survived because they didn’t let “feelings” get in the way of their overall goal of getting each other to heaven.
I understand this, but when you ask people who were married long term (trust me, I have) they also fondly remember the “early years” of marriage/courtship in which there was passion, playfulness, and great romantic affection for the other spouse. People often talk about “putting the spark back” into their relationship. I’m aware the spark isn’t an eternal lightning show, but I would like there to be a spark to look back on fondly.

In the mean time, I am going to (1) focus on treating him lovingly and (2) pray that treating him lovingly gives me the “love” feeling that I long for.
 
Again, I have to stress, Augusta. When you ask people who were married long-term, most of them will say they didn’t always feel love for their spouse. Sometimes they couldn’t stand each other. But their marriage wasn’t about “feelings” anymore than one’s overall health and lifespan is about “temperatures” at any particular day or hour. Their marriages grew and thrived and survived because they didn’t let “feelings” get in the way of their overall goal of getting each other to heaven.
*And let me say, that can be very hard to leave our feelings out of the mix.

Augusta…I went to confession today, because my husband and I had an argument this morning, and well, I felt badly about it. Thankfully, we are past the stage of it getting ugly, but I just felt bad. But, I admit, for some reason, I still feel like I’m holding on to ‘‘something.’’ The priest told me today…’‘don’t let pride get in the way of you reconciling with your husband.’’

Pride. I don’t know if I liked his comment…or ‘advice.’ I thought that perhaps there was a bad ‘‘connection’’ or static on the line when Jesus was speaking to him, to speak to me. lol

I share this because, while your feelings do matter…your husband’s do also…but there has to be that ‘‘bigger picture’’ thinking that eventually has to take shape, for marriages to get past what you both have been through. Without the big picture thinking, I don’t know if I could have worked on my marriage during some tough times. Without the big picture thinking, my husband would have filed for divorce the second I asked for a separation. So…at the end of the day…feelings, and intimacy, and all of this DO matter…but, the bigger picture is…if you love him, and he loves you…give it all to God, take Christ’s hand, and let Him bring you through the details.

Marriage is a marathon, not a sprint. I love that adage, personally. :)*
 
As far as her husband goes he is an adult. He can only be tortured as much as he let’s himself be. If or when he won’t take anymore he will take his boys out of her purse and walk away.
*I agree. Augusta, I have mentioned this to you recently I think…that there is a feeling you might want your husband to quickly shake off the hurt, and will he ever, and how long will it take, etc etc…I felt the same way after my husband and I ‘‘merged’’ back together after our separation years ago. I remember him being hesitant, reluctant to trust that I wouldn’t want to separate again, skeptical of my desire to reconcile. This is where your husband is, it’s very very normal. Has nothing to do like others said of being a man, or not being a man. It has to do with being human. I remember having to grow in patience during that time with him…This is that very time for you. Your husband wants you back…it might take time for other areas of your relationship to evolve, however. Because he is a little hesitant. At times like that, when you feel very disheartened about this whole thing…think about how you might feel, had this situation been reversed, and your husband left you, and now he wants to reconcile. Might you be so patient. :o I honestly can say, I don’t know if I would have been as patient as my husband.

So, that’s kind of where your husband is at…I think? I say this, not knowing him, only based on my own experience…

On another note…I have never heard of that saying, Bison. (bolded) :o*
 
Greatest hockey team??? Wow I won’t argue since the team down the road doesn’t need a silly sport to stay viable. You can have your hockey.

Good for you in just having a good time with your husband without any pressure of talking about the two of you. Keep it up and just have a good time with him. Leave relationship stuff for your retro time. Don’t rush things or feel pressured to either. God will guide you back to where you need to be and when it is right.

Your expectations on how you should feel or how fast things should progress are only going to slow down your progress. Expectations = resentment.

Go have some fun with your husband lifes to short to worry about whether or not your will feel a “spark” in 40 years.
 
Again, I have to stress, Augusta. When you ask people who were married long-term, most of them will say they didn’t always feel love for their spouse. Sometimes they couldn’t stand each other. But their marriage wasn’t about “feelings” anymore than one’s overall health and lifespan is about “temperatures” at any particular day or hour. Their marriages grew and thrived and survived because they didn’t let “feelings” get in the way of their overall goal of getting each other to heaven.
This is soooo true. We have been married 20 years. We are just coming out of one of those slumps. Ebbs and flows ebbs and flows.
 
This is soooo true. We have been married 20 years. We are just coming out of one of those slumps. Ebbs and flows ebbs and flows.
*Yep…agree here, too.

I think that being disillusioned by marriage is not an uncommon feeling, come to think of it. We tend to think that marriage should make us ‘‘feel good’’ all of the time…perhaps, that is our modern culture that feeds us these lines about ‘‘putting ourselves first’’ and ‘‘doing what makes US happy.’’ Marriage sometimes doesn’t make me happy, and other times…it makes me feel like I’m on cloud nine. I think without faith, I’d let the cultural view win. :o So, Augusta…the disillusioned or loss of enchantment kind of feeling you speak of, is really more common than you think. I wish it could be snuggles, kisses, and the rest though, 24/7. :p*
 
Augusta,
I am so heartened by your desire to reconcile. God is working through you. I sometimes get frustrated by these forums b/c I see people who are so quick to judge. Yet what you are doing is exactly what our faith commands us to do. Don’t get discouraged. Matthew 18 is very clear. We are called to forgive and move forward.

All I can say is keep going. I would give away every possession I have to have to see my wife’s heart change the way your’s has. I haven’t heard a word from her in over two years. And yet I still love her. The struggles you are experiencing are real but they are not impossible to overcome. If you request it, God will give you the grace to overcome your challenge. Believe that.

Your situation was very similar to my wife and myself. She grew up in a very drama filled family. I think some people are right about you being a victim of that childhood drama. Don’t be afraid to get a counselor who can help you get to the root of the problem. It is part of the healing.

Finally, don’t be afraid to love your husband. Love him romantically, even when you don’t feel like it. Just like the lack of romantic feelings can be a death spiral, being romantic even when you don’t feel like it can spin up a new level of closeness and affection. Think of it as the caulk that can fill cracks in a broken foundation. Encourage him to continue to love you the way that Christ loves the church. Finally, go down on your knees sometime soon and thank God for this opportunity at redemption. You are SOOO blessed…and seeing that blessing will make any obstacles you face seem so much smaller.
 
I understand this, but when you ask people who were married long term (trust me, I have) they also fondly remember the “early years” of marriage/courtship in which there was passion, playfulness, and great romantic affection for the other spouse. People often talk about “putting the spark back” into their relationship. I’m aware the spark isn’t an eternal lightning show, but I would like there to be a spark to look back on fondly.

In the mean time, I am going to (1) focus on treating him lovingly and (2) pray that treating him lovingly gives me the “love” feeling that I long for.

Augusta, I too have thought about this, because I don’t feel all that good about the beginnings of my marraige. I feel terribly about my underlying motives sometimes. I am learning that I have to forgive myself, but that is my application, and may not have anything to do with your situation, but this is my point: We all want it to be easy. We all believe that the memories of good times is what will sustain our commitments, and keep us secure, but is this really true? What I mean is this, what if I had all the right things (feelings) there in the beginning, and after marraige, my husband met someone else who really tripped his trigger, and started to cheat repeatedly on me, and decided that he never loved me the way that he loves his new woman. Would my memories of how good it was in the beginning be enough to keep me committed?
I think you probably already know this, and is why you are reconciling, but considering what you have been through, marriage, divorice, another lover, attempting to reconclle with husband., That is an awful lot of tough poop to have “good feelings” about in the future when you look back at the early day.s Expecting youself to feel happy about all this hard stuff you are going through now, and have already been through might be a little unrealistic. is like asking a person to hit himself in the head with a hammer and expecting him to say it feels good. If you know that this is Gods will for you, you can look at you situation differently. You might be able to say that God was able to bring good out it, but for you and your present situation, being able to have what other successfully married couples have when they think about the original spark may not be an option for you. That doesn’t however mean that your marraige won’t be successful. You may be one of the rarer couples who can say that God is able to redeem even the most difficult marraiges.
 
I came across this in a discussion of Canon 1057 in another topic.

The “ius ad amorem”
Here it is specially important to express oneself with great precision. Love, understood as an affective feeling or impulse, does not necessarily enter into marriage nor does it condition its validity. For a marriage to be valid, it is clearly necessary that each party accepts the other truly, and gives himself or herself truly, as spouse. That such a choice or act of the will must be there is evident; but this is not the same as saying that the motive of this choice must necessarily be affective love. A person can give valid consent to a marriage, even though he or she does not feel love towards the other. If this were not so, one would have to declare invalid all the arranged marriages of the past or present. An example taken from another field would be that of the marriage accepted by a woman in order to legitimize the child she has conceived or to assure a home for him.
Code:
        In an Address to the Roman Rota, of Feb. 9, 1976, Pope Paul VI dealt authoritatively with this subject. He reconfirmed the "very high and irreplaceable" importance of conjugal love in marriage. But he insisted that matrimony as a juridic reality created by personal consent: "subsists independently of love, and remains even if love is extinguished".
The fact is that a “ius ad amorem” does not appear to be a working principle for jurisprudence [7]. It seems to defy juridic analysis or definition, precisely because of the difficulty of qualifying or quantifying it. How much love - or what quality of love - would one have the right to receive in marriage? The difficulty of answering this becomes more obvious if we complement it with a parallel and necessarily connected question: how much love, and what quality of love, has one the obligation to give in marriage? Any “ius ad amorem” can only be evaluated in the light of a reciprocal “obligatio amandi”. Some people would see love and duty as in opposition. But this is individualistic and false. There can be a duty to love, such precisely as is undertaken in marriage (and this duty also reflects the personalism of Vatican II, which says that “man can fully discover his true self only in a sincere giving of himself”: GS 24). Love owed is among the obligations of marriage. The obligation to love, when it becomes conjugal, takes on special connotations of justice. It includes the duty also to accept the other person even when he or she seems no longer lovable, or no longer loves.
Code:
        Nevertheless I think that, in a certain sense, one can speak of a "ius ad coniugalem amorem". Matrimonial consent creates no right to emotive love, nor to other desirable qualities more or less connected with love [8]. No one can give a right to what does not lie under the power of his will, and it does not necessarily lie under the power of the will of one spouse to make the other feel good or loved. One cannot give a right to affective love; but one can give a right to conjugality, for conjugality does lie under the power of one's will. The conferring of the right to conjugality - the right to be object of an exclusive and permanent sexual self-donation - does show a unique appreciation of each spouse by the other. It shows, independently of all feelings, a unique determination of the will of each in relation to the other; and in this sense it is an act of love.

        As we have seen, the essential features which make that conjugal acceptance of another unique, are precisely its exclusiveness, its permanence and its procreative orientation. To determine to establish such a conjugal relationship with another person, accepting the obligations towards him or her which it implies, is to make that person the object of a privileged choice of predilection, in which one can find all the minimum (but, in themselves, very considerable) and essential elements of conjugal love [9]. The choice (the "e-lectio") proves the love (the "di-lectio"). 

        What is essentially and distinctively conjugal is what can and ought to be given to one's spouse, and cannot or rather must not be given to anyone else. One could here usefully recall the words with which Pius XI in Casti connubii expressed the essence of the «bonum fidei»: "what belongs to one of the parties by reason of the marriage contract... may not be denied to him or permitted to any third person" (AAS 22 (1930) 546). Mere kindness or patience or respect, therefore, are not essentially or uniquely conjugal, for these modes of behavior can and indeed ought to be observed towards everyone. In other words, only those elements that characterize conjugality, and not those that characterize mere friendship, enter into the essence of the matrimonial relationship, and are to be considered as integrating the essential object of marital consent.

        It seems possible therefore to distinguish three positions regarding the juridic relevance of love to the establishment of marriage. The first, rejected by Paul VI, proposed a "ius ad amorem" (love understood in an affective sense), as an essential juridic component of marital consent. The second maintains that love does not enter juridic field at all. A third can be suggested, insofar precisely as the self-donation involved in matrimonial consent is taken to be an act of love. Given this as premiss, one can posit a right to those aspects of conjugal self-donation - conjugal love - essentially and necessarily contained in genuine consent: exclusivity, procreativity and permanence.
 
This is why I love opening myself up to this community. In the last three posts, I read some practical advice, a personal experience, and a theological discussion related to my situation. It’s all powerful and inspirational stuff. 🙂

I really am blessed. Today, I realized that while I am not “in love” with him, I am completely head-over-heals “in awe” of him. And that might be better than “in love,” anyway. (I wish I had the energy to describe this powerful emotion in words. Just trust me, it’s cool. 👍)
 
Augusta, respect and trust are the seedbeds of growth of real and lasting love. Passion and excitement are temporary delusions that mask the counterfeit nature of faux love.

Our culture tells us one is love and the other isn’t. You grew up with a family that had the real deal, apparently. But you listened to the lies of the world that told you “love” was a Disney fairy tale full of emotion and warm fuzzies and they lived happily ever after.

No! In real love, you live happily, and not so happily, and humorously and painfully and dryly, and angrily and happily ever after.

You just don’t leave when your emotions fluctuate.

The fairy tales left that part out.

Real love can’t live without respect and trust.

Respect and trust are the concrete foundations that will support a lasting marriage. Embrace the awe.
 
I understand this, but when you ask people who were married long term (trust me, I have) they also fondly remember the “early years” of marriage/courtship in which there was passion, playfulness, and great romantic affection for the other spouse. People often talk about “putting the spark back” into their relationship. I’m aware the spark isn’t an eternal lightning show, but I would like there to be a spark to look back on fondly.
Augusta, I had let this pass :
when people speak about their early years… one hears what he wants to hear, but mostly gets no further information about what precise years these people are referring to (all the more as there may not be referring to a precise time, but simply reminiscing, afterwards, a “feeling”, that maybe they didn’t even were aware of at the time !!).

To again take my own example: no doubt DH and I will remember our “early years”, “romantic years with a spark” fondly… yet, strictly speaking, these years won’t include the first year of our marriage, that was sometimes beautiful, but mostly consisted in a series of difficulties, times when we just felt like it was “so difficult, are we going to make it ?”:confused:;);… Nevertheless we may forget to specify that in front of our audience… or even have forgotten it in 20 years’time, when this year will just have blent with the other in a beautiful memory. 🙂

So Augusta, believe me: I know your feeling of “this period is supposed to be the most beautiful, so I must have done something wrong, because this period is already behind me and I had NOTHING of it”
I can reassure you : you haven’t missed your “beautiful sparking time”: it’s AHEAD of you.👍
 
This
We went to Retrouvaille. I began to see a glimmer of hope because I felt like there was a marriage that survived what we are going through, but at Retrouvaille I did not relate to the stories of the presenting couples. They had survived infidelity and obsessions with work.
Plus this
I dated someone else and felt that I was in love with him. Our dates were exciting, filled with flirtation and anticipation. The sex was incredible.
shows that you are missing something. While you may feel your marriage does not suffer from infidelity, Adam may very well feel the opposite. He is very likely scared of what you will do as whatevergirl described about her husband. He doesn’t feel safe and all you are worried about is good sex?🤷

Someone here mentioned narcissism. That is a strong word that many only equate to ungodly world despots but that is not true. I think a better description is a lack of empathy. That shows very clearly when you describe adulterous sex as “incredible” and look back on it in a good light. I hope Adam was spared that description?:eek:

You can not like me all you want Augusta. You can think my comments “noxious”. You can even think I’m somehow bad for your outlook on marriage. But I’m not posting to you for any other reason than to help you. I’m sorry if you don’t like the message but sometimes it really hurts to see something in ourselves that is dark and ugly. Selfishness is one of those ugly things.

Thanks for the kind words Dulcissima. 20 years this September and going better than ever. She has fully healed.😃
 
I understand this, but when you ask people who were married long term (trust me, I have) they also fondly remember the “early years” of marriage/courtship in which there was passion, playfulness, and great romantic affection for the other spouse. People often talk about “putting the spark back” into their relationship. I’m aware the spark isn’t an eternal lightning show, but I would like there to be a spark to look back on fondly.
But the playfulness and all that sometimes takes a good 2 or MORE years to get to. I have said it before in these forums and I’ll say it again, I believe for MOST couples, the first year of marriage is THE hardest. My first year was utterly miserable, well make that the first 18 months to two years actually. And the sexual chemistry, and getting all of that ‘down’ so that we were in sync with each other took that long too.

I think what you’re hearing people remember is how they are looking back on their relationship in the early years, which isn’t necessarily how it actually WAS. 20 years out you may fee nostalgic because of what you’ve become together and the times you’ve gone through, but time has a way of making memories look rosier than they really were literally, kind of like women forget the pain of childbirth; you have to if you’re going to move on in life. Just becasue someone tells you they had fun playful close loving times early in marriage, doesn’t meant they also didn’t have hard, distant, struggling times.
I have two definitions of love. I think my biggest problem is I was putting them in the wrong order before. I am hopeful that if I keep doing (1), (2) will follow. (And I’ll admit I’m not a very patient person!)
  1. love: to show affection for (something you choose to do)
    Treating someone with kindness, respect, patience, acceptance, etc.
  1. love: to feel affection for (a spontaneous feeling)
    Romantic attraction.
Those are nice, but you’re missing the mark.
 
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