My Faith came under attack last night

[JustaServant]

You could even take it one step further with this simple question…“Do you really want to know the answer? Are you seriously seeking facts or are you just entertaining yourself by firing off statements like a gatlin gun…”???

Their answer to this question can help you determine whether or not you’d be wasting your time to try to engage them in any intelligent conversation. The term “blue in the face” comes to mind…

Then give them Albert Einstein’s quote…“Man should look for what is, not for what he thinks should be”

Or when you give them an answer and they reject it practically before the words leave your mouth, say "oh I’m sorry. You want a DIFFERENT answer…

 

[Pythons]

Sounds like a dog-pile to me & one which would be difficult to win in at that very moment…
…Still, everything is possible w/ God.

1st question,
The most help I got when getting into apologetics was when I realized I needed…
…To get really familiar with the basics of Catholic teaching ( talking about 101 stuff ).
…Such as the difference between the literal and literalistic interpretation of Scripture.
…That right there took “the fear” out of most everything for me.

Also, having the following was ( and still is a great help to me ).

Bible
Catechism of the Catholic Church ( one from Trent & the current one )
Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott
Early Church Fathers
Councils of the Church ( simply print them out from online )
Good theological dictionary

And most importantly PRAYER all the time.

2nd,
Give your priest a low down on what happened and try to get this girl in touch with him…
…After she realizes that what she was told was wrong she will see things differently.
…And won’t the Catholic bashers be supprised when later they learned everything turned out “ok”.

Best wishes.

 

[mexilad]

You’re lucky. My faith comes under attack everyday. Welcome to the fight. I think you got some good advice here. I recommend you go with that and remember St. Pio’s admonition, “Pray, hope, don’t worry.” God will develope you and use you as he sees fit. Just learn all you can about the faith and keep on marching.

 

[SMA_12]

Thank you all so much. All of your answers have helped a lot and have given me confidence and inspiration in defending the faith. I will continue to reference this thread so that I may soak up the wisdom inside of it. I will pray for help and guidance along the way. I just purchased a book by Scott Hahn called “Reasons to Believe”. With this and many of the other sources you guys suggested, I have a lot to learn.

God Bless you all!

 

[DoGodsBidding]

One other suggestion. Dale Carnegie has a wonderful course and book called “How to win friends and influence people”. One of the things that is taught in the course is that when you are having a disagreement or discussion it is important to recognize the other person’s dignity (a very Christian thing to do) and provide for a “win-win” situation instead of “I’m right and you’re wrong” result. This makes it much easier for the other person to move towards your position without feeling that they were wrong. I have found that this does indeed work.

DGB

 

[steve_b]

In those situations there really isn’t much you can do. As you can see, both of the people had a specific problem not with the church, but with a specific sin in their life. The one had a child out of wedlock and resented the church for teaching that she was a sinner for doing so. It only affirmed her anger when she found out (falsely) that she wasn’t able to get her child baptized.

The other one claimed that the church wouldn’t recognize her second marriage, which is true only if her first marriage was a valid sacrament. Which once again makes her a sinner. (I myself am in the process of a long, drawn out annulment so I know this can be a hard teaching to accept.)

It’s easier to say Ah the church is wrong, than to say “Maybe I should look at what I am doing and why they believe it’s a sin.” Often sin blinds us to the reality of life.

A recent friend of mine joined RCIA at the same time I did this year. I did not know her before, but became rather fond of her. She was fine till we started talking about marriage. You see, she has been in a relationship with a man for 14 years. She refuses to marry him. She said she’d accept the churches teachings etc, but when it came to that… all of a sudden the church was wrong and she wanted nothing to do with it.

Instead of facing the sin and wondering why the church taught such (we aren’t even to that point in the RCIA process) she decided she’d just go elsewhere.

I would take this as a learning process. I’d study the particular problems they have with the church, marriage, divorce, children out of wedlock… I would know exactly what to say next time, in a very concise, and non judgmental manner. They might not listen then either, but at least they will hear it and in the back of their mind it has a chance of taking hold. Plant the seed, and let the Holy Spirit do the rest.

Excellent advice. You’re doing it right. Prayers ascending for you.

I would just make one comment. It is both a learning process and a test of obedience. Our blessed mother’s last recorded words in scripture, “do whatever He tells you”. As we know from witnessing life, many don’t want to do that.

 

[jonbhorton]

You stood up for the Church and through that- Jesus Christ- via your faith.

I have found that saying I’m a Christian or saying I believe in Jesus is generally passed off. When I say I believe in the authority of the Catholic Church, I find myself getting verbally assaulted more than not.

Even around friends.

The fact of the matter is it all comes down to sin. The Catholic Church doesn’t provide a wishy-washy model for doing whatever one wants. It seeks to make people better. The only thing holding people down is SIN.

You confronted a sin by defending the Church’s position on it. That they didn’t give you a chance to explain is of no fault to you.

As others said, you planted a seed. If you know these people, or can get in touch, I’d definitely do some research. I would particularly focus this research on the advice regarding the baptism of the woman’s baby and try to get her to talk to a priest.

She obviously wants her kid baptized, grandma gave her some bad advice, and by wanting her kid baptized, she indicates she still believes in the Church and her faith enough to do that. The door is not closed to her heart. It is, however, being guarded by those who espouse lies- intentional or not.

Only way to defeat lies, is truth.

Stay strong, you did well. That it kept you up means you’re SUCCEEDING, not failing, in faith.

It’s a fight, brother, a fight indeed. And it seems you have the guts to defend. Now you just need to keep pushing on: improving your skills, strengthening your faith, and always, always, be ready for battle.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[PJM]

=SMA_12;8765288]Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

 First of all I want to state my 2 questions, because my story from last night is rather lengthy (my apologies).
1. How can I better defend "Religion" vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was concieved outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children "bastards". I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

THANKS for making the effort:thumbsup:

As one trained, tested, and certified to teach our faith my advice may sound a bit strange?

From expereince I have found it prudent to share my faith when I can either choose the battle-ground, or at least feel that I’m on a level field for discussion. In a group of party goers does seem like either [IMO]. Still I appulaud your effort. What I might have tried was taking the person asside for a brief private discussion.

In the present age, with the degree of secularism that exist and the New Age philosophy so widely accepted that professes that “it is only wrong IF I SAY IT IS” and “don’t judge me and I woun’t judge you”’ combined with the evident lack of GOOD Catholic catechesis in the past 50 years; prudence would seem to dictate that living your faith for other to see and picking your battles when there are opportunities for rational converstaion seems the better choice.

In the mean time there is no BETTER TIME than NOW to learn you’re faith and WHY and How we can believe what we do. Out Pope has made this year the “Year of the New [RE-] evangelazation”

God Bless you,
Pat
PJM on this Forum

 

[fred_conty]

I’ll give you A+ for your effort and let all else rest in His lap. You never know, but you may have planted some seed which takes time to grow. That is all anyone can do, is just plant some seed. And that is a lot. Otherwise never look for success, except in the eyes of our dear Jesus. And never give up because that is what He wants us to do.

Just a thought.

 

[jmoneyideas]

Thank you all so much. All of your answers have helped a lot and have given me confidence and inspiration in defending the faith. I will continue to reference this thread so that I may soak up the wisdom inside of it. I will pray for help and guidance along the way. I just purchased a book by Scott Hahn called “Reasons to Believe”. With this and many of the other sources you guys suggested, I have a lot to learn.

God Bless you all!

I too give you a " A "for effort, I too have had my run ins during my walk with the Faith. Mine was actually with my Ex Protestant Pastor, talk about some serious back and forth. I find it best to engage people in Charity and do what you did, come here and post questions and comments so you can rest assured in your response. You never know what may happen you may be bring someone HOME to the Church…

Here is the link to the thread in which “My ex Protestant Pastor posing questions to me” forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=623083

Also a Good Book that is simple and to the point is By Gus Llyod its called “A Minute in The Church”
guslloyd.com/?page_id=231

God Bless

 

[zz912]

I would follow up with the young lady. I would mention to her that you remembered your discussion, and her concerns about the availability of baptism for her baby. Offer to give her the name and number of a good priest and offer to introduce them if needed.

Sometimes we get intimidated and afraid to contact others who we feel are looking down on us or disapproving of us.

Your actions will speak volumes louder than your words.

 

[wmscott]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

 First of all I want to state my 2 questions, because my story from last night is rather lengthy (my apologies).
1. How can I better defend "Religion" vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was concieved outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children "bastards". I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

I know that at 21 you are at a very precarious stage in your life spiritually. There are many forces out there that are working against you and your faith. Some direct and some that are not so easy to detect.

As a father of a 21 year old who is off to college and is still very strong in her faith I would like to offer a little advice. The first thing is to learn and know what the Catholic Church teaches. Start by getting a Catechism of the Catholic Church and a Catholic Bible and get familiar with them. New Advent is a Catholic site that is very informative (newadvent.org/ ) and good resource for you. Here at CAF in the library is a wealth of information also; this is the place I most often find what I am looking for. Also get with other Catholics your age, either at a Catholic Church young adults group or if at college the Newman Center, or both.

First, when engaging in a conversation or confronted about Catholicism, silently pray to the Holy Spirit for guidance. This helps to center yourself and with the HS guiding how can you go wrong. Now do not argue, but lovingly explain and teach. Arguing will derail the issue and will lead nowhere. Take one subject at a time, not a shotgun blast of anti-Catholic falsehoods. If you do not know the answer to a question say so, but also offer that you know where to get the information and will get back with them. But do follow up.

Practice will help to make you a better apologist, but know that you will not win every debate as some folks are so entrenched in their beliefs and will also try to shake your faith. This is because they believe that what they are saying is the truth to them. It does not matter how much evidence you provide. However there may one or more listening in that a seed may be planted in them that may lead them to investigate further and find their way to the truth.

My hearts with you and I sympathize with your dilemma. Sending prayers your way. Hope all comes out well for you, stay strong in your faith, go to Church as often as you can. Peace.

 

[wmscott]

You could even take it one step further with this simple question…“Do you really want to know the answer? Are you seriously seeking facts or are you just entertaining yourself by firing off statements like a gatlin gun…”???

Their answer to this question can help you determine whether or not you’d be wasting your time to try to engage them in any intelligent conversation. The term “blue in the face” comes to mind…

Then give them Albert Einstein’s quote…“Man should look for what is, not for what he thinks should be”

I like this

 

[Calgar]

Well, I would start by not calling Southern Baptists “radical fundamentalists”.

When I engage in apologetics I ask people to prove their statements. This forces them to think through thier “belief”.

If they make a claim: “The catholic church will not accept your child” simply look them in the eye and ask them “Why do you think that?”.

They will have to explain it to you, this will give you more time to come up with an effective answer and possibly expose the flaws in their reasoning that you can exploit.

 

[SMA_12]

I apologize I did not intend to offend any Southern Baptists, I should have made it clear that this was how my friend described his own former church. And I do happen to know that church was a clear breakaway of mainstream Baptist churches. My apologies.

And once again I appreciate all of the wisdom being shared on this thread. I am trying my best to soak it all up!

 

[15thClub]

SMA_12,

Well my friend, you won’t be the first and certainly not the last to find yourself in this position. As you can see by the information posted about me, I’m Catholic but about to make it official after 18 years of attending mass and studying the faith.

Christian faith is a bit of a conundrum. It’s as simple as John 3:16 and as complex as the Vatican Councils of history. Bottom line, the faith once accepted and embraced is not for lightweights. Since you’ve stated you’re a cradle Catholic (and this is by no means a pejorative in any sense), let me join those who have said to you that you were given a tremendous gift at birth. Keep it, embrace it, love it…and STUDY IT! In all of my studies (and those studies will continue mind you), the reasons the Church gives for its positions are stated with clarity. One can disagree with the position but through all the years of my personal study, I’ve come to respect the logic and reason applied in reaching the final position on each issue of faith.

Stay Catholic! Be humble but maintain a quiet pride in this faith. It takes a minute to learn and the rest of your life to master and sometimes even I wonder if we all get right even up to the moment we “leave.” But one thing I’ve come to know, it’s a thrilling ride!

Regards,

15thClub
River Tiber All Star Swim Team - Class of 2012!

 

[JustaServant]

Well, I would start by not calling Southern Baptists “radical fundamentalists”.

Obviouly generalizations are not going to lead to dialogue.
However, as a former Baptist myself, (Southern, Independent, and American), the diversity of the various groups is hard to pin down. So, many people’s experiences cannot be simply dismissed.
Southern Baptists are a denomination that ranges from theologically liberal, mainly in the north, to fundamentalist KJV-only types in the deep south. Some are ‘mega-churches’ others are smaller. If his experiences are with the fundamentalist variety, why should we doubt him?

 

[couponfit]

Hi guys. I am 21 years old, and have been Catholic my whole life. Just recently though I have begun delving into apologetics. Since I am just a beginner I would really appreciate some advice on defending our faith, especially regarding an issue I am coming across more and more with people in my age group.

 First of all I want to state my 2 questions, because my story from last night is rather lengthy (my apologies).
1. How can I better defend "Religion" vs. a misguided idea of Spirituality, and what are some good arguements I can make?
2. How do I defend and teach the teachings of the Catholic Church accurately without pushing someone away? And how do I make them take my word for it rather than the false ideas about Catholic teaching others have put in their heads?

Last Night:

I was at a New Years Eve Party and three of us were standing outside talking about faith and God. A friend of mine began talking about why "Religion" was bad and religous people and organizations were like the Pharisees. I understand where he got this notion, as he was raised in a radical Fundamentalist Southern Baptist church, that today he considers a cult. He still is a Christian now a days, jumping from church to church frequently over the years.

But the problem arose, when a girl we were talking to began to agree with him, saying that she was raised Catholic but had fallen away. She recently had a baby (outside of marriage), and she said she wanted to baptize the baby in the Catholic Church, but her grandmother had told her that the Church would not accept the child because he was concieved outside of marriage. This is where I jumped in and explained that I am a Catholic and that her grandmother gravely misinformed her. But I could barely finish what I was saying, when two more people jumped in, irate, one complaining that the Church would not recognize her second marriage and that the Church considers her children "bastards". I could barely get in a word, and then the New Years Count Down began and everyone scattered.

This kept me up last night. I felt that I had failed in defending the Holy Catholic Church, and I missed an opportunity to guide a fallen away Catholic back home. Rather she seemed to listen to my friend and his idea that “Religion” is bad and “Spirituality” and “your own personal path to God” is the way to go.

I appreciate any advice on how to better handle the situation and how to defend the Church from misconceptions growing in people of my generation.

God Bless.

Hi, I have wrestled with some similar issues of my own, even within my own family of Catholics. Here’s some advice pastorally speaking:

1st: Write down your questions when you have them and see the Priest to discuss them, especially if you feel under attack!

When I meet someone who disagree’s with the Catholic teaching I do not try to educate them because they are usually not asking me to. Usually they are relating a personal experience and in cases like that it’s best to listen to understand where the person is coming from and what personal and life crisis they’ve lived through and of course where they are in faith and spirituality. Catholic’s who grow up separated from church by their own choice still have a seed, and will always have a desire to eventually seek out the church on their own terms. So it’s really not for you to defend the faith by challenging each persons level of faith that is not the same as yours.

As a good catholic you can look at it like this. Never deny your faith! Always look on each person as a child of God and accept that they have free will. Serve not as a defender of your faith to push forward your views or pull others from theirs! Rather, serve as a witness and as living testimony through your love and stewardship, through your faith and spirituality, through your actions and deeds as you treat others.

If others bring up issues or comments that make you question your own faith, then you must see the priest about these questions. I do this from time to time one on one and it lasts from 5 mins to one hour and is a huge blessing.

Here are some of my last questions and my best explanation of what I learned from the priest:

1. Does giving shaking someones hand mean I endorse them? The priest said, well giving the sign of peace in church is not the same as shaking hands. In church when we give the sign of peace we are passing the grace of god to his children and recognizing them as worthy of God’s love. We never endorse them by sharing with them Jesus’ word! We welcome them and let their own free will and spiritual growth develop on it’s own in church with whatever help they ask of us.

 

[Calgar]

If his experiences are with the fundamentalist variety, why should we doubt him?

So you think it’s okay to call the Southern Baptist Convention radicals?

 

[JustaServant]

So you think it’s okay to call the Southern Baptist Convention radicals?

sigh
You’re missing the point.
My first sentence dealt with generalizations.
HIS experiences with Southern Baptists may have been the radical element.
I had no problem understanding that when I was a Baptist myself.