My financial obligation

[StCsDavid]

I live in the Archdiocese of Portland Oregon. The recent priest sex abuse scandle and subsequent litigation caused our diocese to declare bankruptcy. Recently the bankruptcy judge ruled that the parishes of the diocese were fair game to be used as assets to pay the claims of those who allege they were abused. So basically, the money I’ve donated to the parish for the parish has now been made available to the archdiocese. So the moral dilima I have is do I continue to financially support my parish knowing that there’s a fair chance that my contribution will not go to support my parish, but rather pay for the settlements worked out by the archdiocese to pay legal claims of victims of sex abuse who were abused before I was even born?

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

StCsDavid:

I live in the Archdiocese of Portland Oregon. The recent priest sex abuse scandle and subsequent litigation caused our diocese to declare bankruptcy. Recently the bankruptcy judge ruled that the parishes of the diocese were fair game to be used as assets to pay the claims of those who allege they were abused. So basically, the money I’ve donated to the parish for the parish has now been made available to the archdiocese. So the moral dilima I have is do I continue to financially support my parish knowing that there’s a fair chance that my contribution will not go to support my parish, but rather pay for the settlements worked out by the archdiocese to pay legal claims of victims of sex abuse who were abused before I was even born?

Wel your could get creative and ask for the account numbers for the parish utilities and oragnize the parish so that the money goes directly to the bills of the parish.

 

[Like]

Br. Rich SFO:

Wel your could get creative and ask for the account numbers for the parish utilities and oragnize the parish so that the money goes directly to the bills of the parish.

WOW! What a great idea!!!
Mahalo, Br. Rich!
Aloha with Christ!
Like aka Rich

 

[StCsDavid]

Br. Rich SFO:

Wel your could get creative and ask for the account numbers for the parish utilities and oragnize the parish so that the money goes directly to the bills of the parish.

That’s not a bad idea. I was also thinking that perhaps I could buy the votive candles that we use and dontate them to the parish. I doubt a cheap little votive candle is going to considered an asset worth liquidating by the bankruptcy judge. It seems a little petty to me, but on the other hand the government is forcing the archdiocese to violate canon law by seizing assets that don’t really belong to the archdiocese. If it was any other religion, the media would be all over it crying foul, but since it’s the Catholic Church, there’s almost a “get-even-with-them-ism” attitude by the media. Very sad.

 

[estesbob]

StCsDavid:

I live in the Archdiocese of Portland Oregon. The recent priest sex abuse scandle and subsequent litigation caused our diocese to declare bankruptcy. Recently the bankruptcy judge ruled that the parishes of the diocese were fair game to be used as assets to pay the claims of those who allege they were abused. So basically, the money I’ve donated to the parish for the parish has now been made available to the archdiocese. So the moral dilima I have is do I continue to financially support my parish knowing that there’s a fair chance that my contribution will not go to support my parish, but rather pay for the settlements worked out by the archdiocese to pay legal claims of victims of sex abuse who were abused before I was even born?

You should contnue to support them as you have in the past. Much as i abhor the coverup perpetuated by the ineptness or criminal neglect of the American Catholic Bishops we are called upon to suport our Church’s. The Church must be there to carry on its ministry-the only way the tragdy in your diocese can be worse is if Church’s start folding because Catholics are financially walking away from their parish’s.

BTW-I have heard several people in our Church mention they are cuting their contributions back because they dont wnt their money going to pay off these lawsuits. Since Dioceses are seperate legal entities from a legal standpoint there is no way money given to a Church in the Diocese of Dener is going to be used to pay off a lawsuit in the Dioceses of Boson

 

[JimG]

This really applies to any large settlement claim against any large corporate entity.

Who ultimately pays those settlements? Not the corporation, which is after all, only a piece of paper. It is the current customers and investors who will pay, either in the form of higher prices, reduced dividends or reduced stock prices. Corporate management pays only if their personal assets (not company assets) are attached.

So, if I win a big lawsuit for a defective product, it’s all the other customers who will pay me.

If a diocese is sued for priestly malfeasance, it’s all the other parishioners, not the bishop or the priest, who will pay.

 

[HagiaSophia]

Br. Rich SFO:

Wel your could get creative and ask for the account numbers for the parish utilities and oragnize the parish so that the money goes directly to the bills of the parish.

Actually you don’t even have to do that – you can make a “restrcited” donation, that is accompanying the money you make a statement that this money is to be used explicitly for XXXX and state your purpose. That means that the specific funds can only be used for what you state.

Keep in mind howeve, that bills are bills, the parishes, the diocese have to meet these payments in some way so it’s best to think it through before you carry it out.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

You should contnue to support them as you have in the past. Much as i abhor the coverup perpetuated by the ineptness or criminal neglect of the American Catholic Bishops we are called upon to suport our Church’s. The Church must be there to carry on its ministry-the only way the tragdy in your diocese can be worse is if Church’s start folding because Catholics are financially walking away from their parish’s.

The problem is, you aren’t supporting the Church. And the money isn’t going to carry on the ministry – it’s going to lawyers (the bulk of it.)

If your diocese is on the losing end of a lawsuit, I think the idea of donations in kind, instead of in cash is a good one. Pay the utilities bill, buy and donate the things the parish needs. Don’t funnel your money to the lawyers.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

The problem is, you aren’t supporting the Church. And the money isn’t going to carry on the ministry – it’s going to lawyers (the bulk of it.)

If your diocese is on the losing end of a lawsuit, I think the idea of donations in kind, instead of in cash is a good one. Pay the utilities bill, buy and donate the things the parish needs. Don’t funnel your money to the lawyers.

So the Parish’s Catholic Education program folds? RCIA goes away? The Parish Staff is laid off? If it has a School its shut down?

IMO you continue to support your Church if some of it ends up gong to the lawsuit so be it.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

So the Parish’s Catholic Education program folds? RCIA goes away? The Parish Staff is laid off? If it has a School its shut down?

How do you keep the Catholic Education program and RCIA going? How do you keep the staff on the payroll? How do you keep the school open?

The money is going straight to the lawyers.

That’s why it’s best to donate in kind in a case like this – at least if you give books, pay electricity and water and so on – and set up a fund to pay teachers, you can use the money for what you intend it.

estesbob:

IMO you continue to support your Church if some of it ends up gong to the lawsuit so be it.

Sort of like saying you should amputate your leg, and if you die, so be it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Don’t forget Catholic Charities. I don’t know if the poor boxes can be tapped for settlements, but it would be a hard thing for the poor who depend on Holy Mother Church’s charity to do without. Can a bishop take the funds of Catholic charities in his diocese?

 

[otm]

StCsDavid:

That’s not a bad idea. I was also thinking that perhaps I could buy the votive candles that we use and dontate them to the parish. I doubt a cheap little votive candle is going to considered an asset worth liquidating by the bankruptcy judge. It seems a little petty to me, but on the other hand the government is forcing the archdiocese to violate canon law by seizing assets that don’t really belong to the archdiocese. If it was any other religion, the media would be all over it crying foul, but since it’s the Catholic Church, there’s almost a “get-even-with-them-ism” attitude by the media. Very sad.

Given the fact that the Church had ample time, given its knowledge of Canon law, to set up the parishes in civil law in a way that mirriored in civil law what Canon law required, and didn’t, I find it hard to sing the blues about the fact that civil law is being applied to the Church in the way that the Church itself operated in civil law.

To make that a little more plain English; in civil law there are provisions for trusts. If the funds for each parish were set up in a civil trust, then we would not have the question of the Archdioces having it all pooled together and then claiming in court that "well, Coanon law says we have to handle it as a trust, so that’s what we really do, even though we didn’t set up the separate trust’.

the pother side of the coin is that if each parish had been set up as a separate corporation, the victims’ lawyers would simply have sued each and every parish where an abusive priest may have been stationed. I wonder how many parishes Grammond was in…

and the results would have been even more disasterous, as most likely none of the parishes would have had sufficient coverage, each would have been fighting with the insurance companies, none had the expertise or cash flow to be able to hire the defence attorneys; the list goes on and on.

 

[otm]

sometimes I get a bit upset with this type of discussion.

Let’s deal with Attorneys first. A victim has two choices: they can hire an attorney to represent them in the lawsuit.

Attorneys most likely are going to start at a minimum of $150 per hour, and for a case as complex as an abuse suit, you are probably looking at an attorney more in the range of $300 per hour. Givne that preparation for the lawsuit may be in the range of 500 to 1000 hours of attorney time, if not more just to get through a trial, do the math.

Anyone care to put up $150,000 to $300,000 cas to sue for being abused?

Attorneys take lawsuits on contingency; they still put in the hours to prepare. Contingency lawsuits traditionally have been on a 25% 33% 40% 50% basis (25 if settled before filing suit; 33 after suit but before trial [which often means that all the trial perpearation has been done and it is settled “on the courthouse steps”], 40% after trial and 50% after appeal). Further, although the client signs and agreement that the client is responsible for court costs, etc, often the costs of investigation and discovery run into the thousands of dollars; mony the client simply doesn’t have, and the attorney pays.
It is often several years boefore the case can be tried; and if it is appealed, it may easily be 5 years before the attorney sees a dime. And then they only see a dime if they win.

By the time the attorney has gotten through the process and actually seen a check to the client, of which they get part, it may have been 5 years or more and then the case may be settled for way less than it was filed for. The attorneys get to put the (un)billable hours in on the risk that they may never get to see a settlement, and if they do, it may not come even close to a payment to reimburse them for the time they spent.

And before anyone goes off about the cost of billable hours, the standard dividsion is 1/3 goes to staff, 1/3 to office overhead that is not staff, and 1/3 to the attorney; it has been shifting to the point where the attorney is making less than 1/3 in “salary”.

 

[estesbob]

vern humphrey:

How do you keep the Catholic Education program and RCIA going? How do you keep the staff on the payroll? How do you keep the school open?

The money is going straight to the lawyers.

That’s why it’s best to donate in kind in a case like this – at least if you give books, pay electricity and water and so on – and set up a fund to pay teachers, you can use the money for what you intend it.

Sort of like saying you should amputate your leg, and if you die, so be it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon12.gif

None of this has happened-no money has been levied from Parishes to cover the settlement. Even if his money does go to setling the lawsuit it is going to take care of the needs of OUR Church.

 

[otm]

As I said, I get a bit upset about these discussions: let’s take the second point.

While not trying to let off any bishops who failed in their duties (Boston’s prior prince of the Church comes to mind), it needs to be reiterated that:

1. often the abuse simply was not known, because victims did not come forward at the time of the abuse, nor for a long time afterward. We have stuff coming out fo the woodwork that is 30, 40 and 50 years ago; how was the bishop then to fix what he wasn’t told about?

20 in the 70’ and into the 80’s, psychiatrists and psychologists, the experts the Church hired to try to deal with these issues, told the bishops that the offending priests (the ones known about; see 10 above that some they didn’t know about) could be, and were being, cured.

Tell me how we are to fault the bishops for relying on their experts?

First, it took time before the bishop was even apprised soemthing was wrong.

Second, often the bishop had no knowledge of how greviously harmfull this was to the victim (and to a large extent, neither did the average inciviudal on the street). It was the “sin no one spoke of”; there simply wasn’t enough information to understand how terribly harmful sexual abuse was. The bishops may have been disgusted with what happened, but it was considered a moral sin, to be confessed, and the sinner admonished not to sin again (who of course promised they wouldn’t).

Third, between the time lapse from the incident to the initial discovery, and from the discovery through the end of treatment, (remember, they were told these priests were being cured, and told that they would not repeat), and then from the time to the next incident, and then from there to it’s discovery (remember, many victims did not come forward), a great deal of time elapsed. It wasn’t like this was all collpsed into a 6 month period.
So why are we convicting bishoips of things that they not only had no knowledg of, but were told by experts that the priest was cured, and then for several years had no further information about more abuse?

I noted Cardinal Law above, because there were incidents there, and with other bishops, that should have clued them in that things were way beyond minor. However, factualy, many of the bishops simply had no information at the time on which to act.

 

[katewithak]

In sickness and in health, for richer and for poorer. I think to a certain extent we must just bite the bullet for the lawsuits. It is deplorable, but true. Donations in kind are a good idea, a very good idea, and should be done in order to keep the ministries going but still, I just go ahead and give my alms and offer it up to God. Ultimately, it is His money, not mine.

 

[katewithak]

Also, I think it would be a good thing for every Church member to cooperate as fully as possible. We need to move on now. We have learned a valuable lesson, but the sex scandal is not an end, but a beginning. Let’s not waste time crying in our cups over the money. Just stay the course, whether it be your weekly donation envelopes, candles, what have you. Just my opinion.

 

[otm]

And now to the third point: I see in discussions herein and elsewhere an undercurrent that the lawsuits are way out of proportion to the damages.

The Church has information, which it in many circumstances has not pulled together in a cohesive fashion that might be worth pondering; there have been a number of suicides among victims and alleged victims (alleged, as their cases have not been ajudicated or acknowledged by a settlement). Sexual abuse is not the newest sin on the block; it has been around most likely since people started sinning sexually.

It has been until very recent history, the “sin no one talks about”. Much of that lack of talk has been due to threats from the abuser; much because of intense shame about the abuse, much because of the intense harm that it has caused - most people would liken it to picking at a scab; it is best left alone. Only in the last several decades has psychology (which is not that old a science) begun to discover the phenomenal amount of harm that sexual activity between adults and minors causes. Where we have begun to put this harm out in the light of day and the light of truth, people are beginning to come to terms with the damage.

Like it or not, the only way that civil society has come up with to bring some form of resolution to the issue is through a lawsuit for money damages. Right, wrong, poorly done, not healing the damage, not changing the situation, call it what you want. Before you criticize it, I would suggest you think up a better alternative. and lest you suggest that the victim just needs to get over it, or that the victim is harming innocent individuals, or any of a long list of cockamamy responses I have heard, I would suggest that a) you walk a mile in their shoes, and b) people don’t commit suicide over minor issues.

Is a victim entitled to, sy, $50,000,000 (which is the lawsuit, along with another one in the $20 to $40,000,000 range which forced the Archdioces of Portland into bankruptcy in the first place)? I don’t know; as I have not heard any of the evidence, and neither has much of anyone else.

Do I consider juries will be fair? That is like asking whose ox was gored the worst. We can argue all day about fairness, but it is still the best system in the world. Would I be worried about prejudices about the Catholic Church? You bet. However, if none of this had happened, we souldn’t be here discussing this; and had the victims not started suing for large dollars, I fear that there would be a nubmer of bishops who simply would not have taken this issue to heart. In other words, we would have more abuse.

 

[vern_humphrey]

estesbob:

None of this has happened-no money has been levied from Parishes to cover the settlement. Even if his money does go to setling the lawsuit it is going to take care of the needs of OUR Church.

How can the same dollars do two things? If the money is going to pay the judgement, how can it be used for parish purposes?

 

[katewithak]

otm:

And now to the third point: I see in discussions herein and elsewhere an undercurrent that the lawsuits are way out of proportion to the damages.

The Church has information, which it in many circumstances has not pulled together in a cohesive fashion that might be worth pondering; there have been a number of suicides among victims and alleged victims (alleged, as their cases have not been ajudicated or acknowledged by a settlement). Sexual abuse is not the newest sin on the block; it has been around most likely since people started sinning sexually.

It has been until very recent history, the “sin no one talks about”. Much of that lack of talk has been due to threats from the abuser; much because of intense shame about the abuse, much because of the intense harm that it has caused - most people would liken it to picking at a scab; it is best left alone. Only in the last several decades has psychology (which is not that old a science) begun to discover the phenomenal amount of harm that sexual activity between adults and minors causes. Where we have begun to put this harm out in the light of day and the light of truth, people are beginning to come to terms with the damage.

Like it or not, the only way that civil society has come up with to bring some form of resolution to the issue is through a lawsuit for money damages. Right, wrong, poorly done, not healing the damage, not changing the situation, call it what you want. Before you criticize it, I would suggest you think up a better alternative. and lest you suggest that the victim just needs to get over it, or that the victim is harming innocent individuals, or any of a long list of cockamamy responses I have heard, I would suggest that a) you walk a mile in their shoes, and b) people don’t commit suicide over minor issues.

Is a victim entitled to, sy, $50,000,000 (which is the lawsuit, along with another one in the $20 to $40,000,000 range which forced the Archdioces of Portland into bankruptcy in the first place)? I don’t know; as I have not heard any of the evidence, and neither has much of anyone else.

Do I consider juries will be fair? That is like asking whose ox was gored the worst. We can argue all day about fairness, but it is still the best system in the world. Would I be worried about prejudices about the Catholic Church? You bet. However, if none of this had happened, we souldn’t be here discussing this; and had the victims not started suing for large dollars, I fear that there would be a nubmer of bishops who simply would not have taken this issue to heart. In other words, we would have more abuse.

Again, I would say people, stay the course. Do not let yourselves be distracted from the main goal. We have many good bishops who did hear and still do hear. For those who cannot view bankrupting the Church as a positive, again stay the course. Just because lawsuits are the only way we have come up with to settle these things, does not necessarily mean they are best. Return to the Gospel, return to the virtues, and stay the course. If we lose our buildings or real estate, try to remember that land ownership was illegal for Catholics in the 13 colonies. And the Church survived. We did not have our first Bishop for many years after the Declaration of Independence. And the Church survived. There were 25 priests for 250, 000 catholics in the late 1700’s. We survived. We will pay these debts and rebuild the same way our ancestors did- a dime here and a nickel there. Just don’t allow yourselves to be distracted with anger and resentment.