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estesbob
Guest
vern humphrey:
Gee Vern-I am getting vibes that you are not a fan of trial lawyers…
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otm
Guest
vern humphrey:
It may be that you give all you can to the Church monitarily. And if that is so, that is wonderful, and you are not required to do more. You may be asked to do more, but you are not required to.
Statisticaly, Catholics are among the low end of the chart when it comes to giving at the parish level; reasonable estimates put it somewhere around 2% of projected gross income. Given that the Old Testament speaks of tithing and that is generally accepted as 10%, we aren’t even close as a Church to giving what we should.
Further, you are not giving your dollar to a lawyer; the chek is always written to the victim (named first) and their attorney. So send your dollar to the Church, and the Church will send part of that dollar to the victims and their attorneys.
To begin with, you are over reacting. The whole Church is not going to collapse, but there will certqinly be a serious challenge to give more.
It may be that you give all you can to the Church monitarily. And if that is so, that is wonderful, and you are not required to do more. You may be asked to do more, but you are not required to.
Statisticaly, Catholics are among the low end of the chart when it comes to giving at the parish level; reasonable estimates put it somewhere around 2% of projected gross income. Given that the Old Testament speaks of tithing and that is generally accepted as 10%, we aren’t even close as a Church to giving what we should.
Further, you are not giving your dollar to a lawyer; the chek is always written to the victim (named first) and their attorney. So send your dollar to the Church, and the Church will send part of that dollar to the victims and their attorneys.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Actually, much of the problem was over – in dioceses like Little Rock, there was a program already in place to prevent such abuses. Now as for people like Law, Egan and Mahoney, they should have gone to prison.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Have you looked at the state of Catholic schools and other activities lately. Every dollar counts.
And if I were in a diocese paying large judgements, I might well give more – but I’d give in kind, not in cash.
Which means we should let lawyers take what little the Church gets?
No. I have no obligation to make lawyers rich at the expense of the hungry and homeless and the children.
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otm
Guest
vern humphrey:
Oh, and by the way, had the priests not abused children, then those children who have now grown up with the effects of the abuse the priests did would not need the dollar or any part of it. and they would not have hired attorneys to help them against a Church which did not protect them then, and which arguably might not be protecting their children now, had the attorneys not sued the Church.
No, I think that the victims need it as well as the homeless and the children, and if you continue to support the Church generously, as I am sure you already do, then it will not be a problem.
Oh, and by the way, had the priests not abused children, then those children who have now grown up with the effects of the abuse the priests did would not need the dollar or any part of it. and they would not have hired attorneys to help them against a Church which did not protect them then, and which arguably might not be protecting their children now, had the attorneys not sued the Church.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
How is it justice to penalize people who had no hand in the offense – who were not even born when the offenses occurred?
We have no cases of abuse in the Diocese of Little Rock – but if we did, I have no obligation to pay lawyers – and that’s who gets most of the money.
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otm
Guest
vern humphrey:
You seem to be particularly anti lawyer. I hope you never need one, since you seem to have such a poor opinion of them. Just as I hope that you never need a neuorsurgeon; I am sure you think they are overpayed too.
I wonder if anyone thinks you are overpaid for what you do?
And while we are at it, I am not sure why you insist in putting your oar in this pond; I don’t recall of hearing that your diocese has declared bankruptcy. Mine has. And I expect to have to pay.
As I will, because I feel that justice demands it. Justice for the victims. Justice for the children who would have been abused, had this not occured and caused the bishops to address the issues.
And justice for the attorneys who have brought these cases, and spent thousands of hours, literally, in preparing these cases and representing their clients to the best of their ability. Because, unlike you, I feel that attorneys are deserving of the pay they receive for the education they have to obtain, the sophistication of the work they do, the results they obtain, and the risk they take to do so.
Most of the attorneys I know are not getting rich. They are well compenstaed for what they do, and what they do is clean up the detritus you and I and everyone else leaves.
You seem to be particularly anti lawyer. I hope you never need one, since you seem to have such a poor opinion of them. Just as I hope that you never need a neuorsurgeon; I am sure you think they are overpayed too.
I wonder if anyone thinks you are overpaid for what you do?
And while we are at it, I am not sure why you insist in putting your oar in this pond; I don’t recall of hearing that your diocese has declared bankruptcy. Mine has. And I expect to have to pay.
As I will, because I feel that justice demands it. Justice for the victims. Justice for the children who would have been abused, had this not occured and caused the bishops to address the issues.
And justice for the attorneys who have brought these cases, and spent thousands of hours, literally, in preparing these cases and representing their clients to the best of their ability. Because, unlike you, I feel that attorneys are deserving of the pay they receive for the education they have to obtain, the sophistication of the work they do, the results they obtain, and the risk they take to do so.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
What detrius did I leave that had to be cleaned up by a lawyer?
No, I think surgeons and physicians are underpaid – but medicine is very expensive due to the depredations of the lawyers. Junk lawsuits cost every Amrican – man, woman and child a $1000 a year in increased medical costs. And those are only the direct costs!
I live on my own resources.
Are you saying I am not entitled to post on this thread?
Which rule is that?
And the damage they do to society.
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StCsDavid
Guest
If the allegations are proved true, shouldn’t the district attorney pursue criminal prosecution against the priests involved? Shouldn’t the bishops be charged with depraved indifference? Why is there no criminal charges being brought? I know some of the priest have already passed on to face our Lord, but there are others still around who can face a criminal court if the evidence is there. This actually where I believe the archdiocese has errored. It should air all of its dirty laundry in one fell swoop. The offending priests broke the law. If the archdiocese has evidence of that, it should aid in the prosecution of these criminals. These pedophile priests should go to jail just like any other pedophile.
Instead what has happened is a group of attornies have created a cottage industry of suing the Catholic church and promised the victims what is akin to a winning lottery ticket. Money doesn’t heal these wounded souls. Isn’t serious psychological and spiritual counseling needed? I belive the church offered that very thing, but the victims lawyers turned it down in favor of their own financial interests. “Don’t settle…we can get you more!” This puts the church in a totally defensive posture, unable to help the people it injured.
So the victims are victimized yet again. First they were exploited by the offending priests…now they are exploited by the civil defense lawyers. And, too, they have the added guilt of knowing that they potentially indirectly caused the harm to many legitimate social service agencies. It just doesn’t end for these guys.
I realize this is how the system works. It is imperfect. Tort reform is badly needed in this country. All I can really do is pray for the souls of all involved…and pay my share of the settlement.
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otm
Guest
vern humphrey:
Welcome to reality.
Would you care to share with us the contracts between the lawyers and their clients from which you make the statement that the lawyers get the most? Or is that just your opinion? I know of no factual basis on which you can make that statement; perhaps you have some?
And as far as having no cases, that may be true. Or it may be that you just don’t know about them.
and you are correct, you have no personal obligation to pay the attorneys; neither do the parishoners in the diocese in Arizona that went bankrupt, nor those in Spokane which went bankrupt, nor those in my Archdioces which is going bankrupt.
However, the Church, through those dioceses, have not only a legal obligation but also a moral obligation to pay the attorneys, and you seem to forget that the Church which has that obligation is the Church which you have an obligation to support. Or do you have some sort of moral code that says you will only support that part of the Church which you choose?
The same way that it is justice in any other law suit. whether the lawsuit is against an individual and covered by insurance, or against a corporation, everyone who has insurance in that company, or who has stock in the company sued or does business with them pays.
Welcome to reality.
Would you care to share with us the contracts between the lawyers and their clients from which you make the statement that the lawyers get the most? Or is that just your opinion? I know of no factual basis on which you can make that statement; perhaps you have some?
And as far as having no cases, that may be true. Or it may be that you just don’t know about them.
and you are correct, you have no personal obligation to pay the attorneys; neither do the parishoners in the diocese in Arizona that went bankrupt, nor those in Spokane which went bankrupt, nor those in my Archdioces which is going bankrupt.
However, the Church, through those dioceses, have not only a legal obligation but also a moral obligation to pay the attorneys, and you seem to forget that the Church which has that obligation is the Church which you have an obligation to support. Or do you have some sort of moral code that says you will only support that part of the Church which you choose?
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otm
Guest
vern humphrey:
vern humphrey:
vern humphrey:
It is interesting that the ones who scream the loudest about junk lawsuits are often associated with, or are, the persons who did the damage whcih caused the lawsuit in the first place. Doctors who commit malpractice keep on doing medicine because the medical associations won’t police their own; sort of like the Church which didn’t police it’s priests…
vern humphrey:
I am saying that you have a lot to say about something that isn’t effecting you.
vern humphrey:
Well, it was the attorneys who got the Church to quit recycling abusive priests back into parishes to harm more victims. I fail to see how that has harmed society, or the Church. It was the Church that didn’t get the problem resolved. It wa the attorneys who brought enough heat to bear that something finally is getting resolved. Perhaps you see that as a negative.
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otm
Guest
Criminal charges have been brought in some circumstances and successfully. Often, the statute of limitations has caused problems, or victims who don’t want to be drug through a criminal court trial, or the priest is dead or close to it.
And let’s quit throwing the word “pedophile” around; the great majority of the instances were ephibophile, as in teenage boys.
Actually, you are wrong about the cottage industry bit; the lawsuits against other churches, schools, and other groups simply don’t get the press attention. They are numerous. The incidence of abuse by priests is considered by many who know of the lawsuits and the police reports to be about the same as anywhere else; it is just that the Catholic church makes such a nice target; the reporting makes it sound like we are the only ones with the problem.
Maybe you need to speak with a couple of victims, to find out how really devastating this is. You seem to think that it is lawyer driven; but lawyers only give advice; the client ultimately makes the decision. Some of the client want their trial; they want to get this out into the light of day instead of having some back room deal cut.
Some of them want their pound of flesh, and before you criticize that attitude, talk wtih them. Find out how this has impacted the last ten, twenty, thirty, forty or more years of their lives; find out about the broken marriages, the job difficulties, and all of the rest of what this has done to damage their lives and the lives of those closest to them.
The counseling wasn’t turned down. It is going on now. but the lawsuits aren’t going to go away becasue we say we’re really, really sorry.
further, it is a joke (i hope) to say that the victims are being victimized by their attorneys. There sure as h…l wasn’t anyone else around advocating for them. They went to the attorneys on their own free will and choice, because they had lived with this for long enough.
Tell one of the victims they are being victimized by the attorneys and they would laugh you out of the room.
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katewithak
Guest
First of all, I have never policed my priests. Although I spent years in a parish with one of the biggest offenders, had him for my parish priest, and even knew the family of the victim, none of whom ever mentioned it until he was arrested. How would you suggest I police the priest?
Secondly, I don’t get where it was the attorneys who got the Church to quit recycling priests. Are you discussing the attorneys of the victims or the defense attorneys? Which attorneys? All of them? How about the defense? How about the ones who for years negotiated private settlements? The attorneys- give me a break. No I dfon’t think it was the attorneys.
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vern_humphrey
Guest
Next time you need surgery, have a lawyer do it.http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
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otm
Guest
It was the victims’ attorneys, by bringing the suits, who got the message across big time.
What we seem to forget it that this first broke open in the 1980’s, as then was wehn the lawsuits started in earnest. They haven’t quit; but even today, most of the abuse was from decades ago. It has simply snowballed.
With the lawsuits in the 80’s, the word was put out to the bishops that they needed to clean house and tighten things up. Moves were made to do so in some dioceses, and in some, not much effort was made; sometimes because of disbelief, sometimes because the suits hadn’t yet hit them, sometimes in what we now see as an erroneous attempt to deal with a priest with a problem, and one can speulate on other reasons.
Do I expect everyone to be suspicious of their priest? Absolutely not.
Do I expect that parents would pay more attention to the whereabouts of their children? Absolutely.
Do I expect parents to come forward if they suspect, or know of abuse? I would hope so, but given the fact that in sexual abuse cases in the home the non-abusing parent is often in deep denial, it is more a hope than anything.
Would I expect a parishoner to at least make some effort to investigate if they came upon suspicious circumstances? Again, I would hope so…
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StCsDavid
Guest
True…I forgot about the statute of limitations. My bad.
A technicality that hardly changes the gravity of the offense.
Please don’t imply that lawyers are taking these cases out of the goodness of their hearts. Of course the lawyers are driven by money. I’ve worked with dozens of lawers in my profession, and not one of them cares about the truth…only about the law and how it can manipulated to their advantage to win. I’m really not anti-lawyer. They are an excellent tool to use when you need them to navigate the law of man. But it is disingenuous to imply that money is not their primary motivation for litigating these cases. They may not have made a lot of money yet, but they are betting on a big payday at the end of the process.
All that you say is true in regard to the real damage that has been done to the legitimate victims. I say legitimate as there are many claims yet to be determined. Yet, how does causing pain to the innocent beneficiaries of Catholic charities exact justice for them? I could understand excising this pound of flesh from the offending priest and even the true property of the archdiocese (not the technical property as you know very well parishes never considered themselves to be owned by the archdiocese)…but taking it from school endowments; from programs to help the poor…surly you don’t posit this was their hope and definition of justice? Do they intend to take their winnings and continue the work of the Church? Will any amount of money reclaim the years of pain they lost?
I have no doubt you are correct. I’m sure they don’t feel vicitmized by the attornies.
What saddens me is there seems to be no opportunity or even desire for forgiveness on their part…only one of inflicting the greatest amount of pain on the people who had not one ounce of culpability in this. And you know what…these people will pay it as we do feel compassion for these victims. We all are part of this body of Christ, which means ours is a call of self-donation. I suppose my failing is not understanding how one would willfully want to hurt someone who never hurt me. This is no longer about an institution or corporation paying a claim that gets reported on an income statement at the end of the year. This is innocent people hurt by something that was no fault of their own. Perhaps that’s God’s way of giving us empathy for what they endured.
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Archbishop
Guest
Every bishop and priest who knew about the abuse and allowed it to continue in any way, shape, or form, is guilty of criminal negligence and should not be a member of the clergy any longer. Period. It does not matter that in the 70’s bishops were only acting on whatever info they had. They knew that sexual molestation of minors was a crime. By covering it up they were just as guilty as the person who committed it. Cardinal Law of Boston and any other bishop who shuffled criminal priests from one parish to another should be behind bars rather than in Rome or in charge of a diocese.
There is absolutely NO excuse, when a bishop becomes aware of criminal activity by his clergy, that he can allow it to continue or allow the criminal to continue wearing a collar.
Now the unfortunate parishioners of today must pay the price financially for the sins of the princes and fathers of the Church. The people have not cried out loud enough that criminals be removed from their positions.
I am sorry to sound so harsh. There is always forgiveness at the cross, but there are also grave consequences for serious sins. I have removed one bishop over the issue of homosexuality. It is never pleasant to ask for someone’s resignation. But the ministry must be pure. Our Lord Jesus Christ purchased his people with his own blood. Those for whom he died are worthy of only the best the Church can offer as shepherds of the flock. While no man is perfect, and we all sin and need forgiveness, no criminal can be permitted to serve as a shepherd or in the place of Christ.
My heart goes out to my Catholic brothers and sisters who must see the Lord’s money now go from other uses to take care of the victim’s of sexual abuse. But it is now the Church’s turn to take care of those whom it has wounded.
There is absolutely NO excuse, when a bishop becomes aware of criminal activity by his clergy, that he can allow it to continue or allow the criminal to continue wearing a collar.
Now the unfortunate parishioners of today must pay the price financially for the sins of the princes and fathers of the Church. The people have not cried out loud enough that criminals be removed from their positions.
I am sorry to sound so harsh. There is always forgiveness at the cross, but there are also grave consequences for serious sins. I have removed one bishop over the issue of homosexuality. It is never pleasant to ask for someone’s resignation. But the ministry must be pure. Our Lord Jesus Christ purchased his people with his own blood. Those for whom he died are worthy of only the best the Church can offer as shepherds of the flock. While no man is perfect, and we all sin and need forgiveness, no criminal can be permitted to serve as a shepherd or in the place of Christ.
My heart goes out to my Catholic brothers and sisters who must see the Lord’s money now go from other uses to take care of the victim’s of sexual abuse. But it is now the Church’s turn to take care of those whom it has wounded.
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otm
Guest
No it is not a technicality; it goes to the heart of where the abuse is coming from. And the heart of where the majority of the abuse between priests and boys is coming from is sex between adult men and teenage boys. That issue ahs a bunch of people in a dither, running around saying “we have to have a study of the issue; we can’t tell what is causing this.”
asking one simple question might bring a little light (as in, truth) to the subject: how many heterosexual men do you know who have had sex with a teen age boy? Me personally? I don’t know a one. Ever hear of NAMBLA? North American Men Boy Love Association? They are not promoting sex between men and prepubescent children of either sex.
I did not imply attorneys were taking it out of the goodness of their heart. But I know too many attorneys to ever make a statement that they do not care about the truth; nor are they any more driven by amking amoney than any other professional is; or for that matter, any working stiff.
Get off the ad hominem bit. It is not becoming to you.
as I said in a prior post, our system of justice is not perfect; it is just better than any other system out there. It is all too easy to take pot shots at it; why don’t you come up with one that works better and more fairly, since you seem to be of the opinion that it is not fair?
If you have car insurance, you help pay for every accident that occurs which results in a payment from your insurance company. You just never thought about it.
If you buy a product or service from any corporation that has been sued and had to pay a judgement, you are paying part of that judgement in higher prices. If you are a stockholder of that corporation, you are paying part of that judegement in lower earingss per share.
Whoever gave you the idea that there is anything even remotley approaching perfect justice in this world lied to you. Are the parishoners innocent? They are as innocent as the stockholders, insureds, consumers… It is just that the pool of funds is lower and the claims higher.
And as to the legal entity, most people had no clue. The Church made whatever legal decisoions in sivil law they made, and if they had simply set up each parish as a corporate sole, they would have just about guaranteed that parishes would have been shut down and sold off; this way is more likely to avoid that action.
Some do, some don’t. For those that don’t, I most certainly can understand the anger and pain they have even thinking about the Church. For those that do, they may receive it. Meeting one or more of them might teach a lot.
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