My first battering in the apologetics arena

[Ag_not]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

 

[bilop]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

Protetstants are very good at quoting the Scriptures, often selectively.

The thing is, as Catholics, we don’t put our faith in Scripture quotes, we put it in the Church that Christ founded, and Her teaching authority.

Do we need statutes, no, but they help many people in their worship. Do you need to pray to Mary, or the Saints, no, but they help many people and are powerful intercessors.

It is a logical fallacy that only the essential should be allowed. Why limit our Faith and worship to the absolute essential minimum? It makes no sense.

Don’t worry about one smooth Protestant, you have 2000 years of Saints, and Theologians on your side.

God Bless

 

[Lukelion]

Hi Ag_not,
Sorry you got unseated. :console:

I don’t need pictures of my children, I see them every day, but pictures sure are nice to have to bring memories. Same with religious pictures. Its a great visual reminder when I go past one in my house, to pray always.

 

[George_C]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

Your friend is well-intentioned, but misguided. You should have countered with the fact that “Protestantism” is founded on lies and half-truths, particularly where the bible is concerned. Look how many denominations there are; I’ve heard it’s somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000!

For over a millennium, the Latin Vulgate was the bible, Then men like Marcion of Sinope, Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Wycliffe, and William Tyndale took it and changed it radically. They disagree on many points. Luther, for example, removed several OT books, edited Daniel and Esther, and essentially created and propagated Sola Scriptura which is a lie. He also disputed many of the books of the NT. The Epistle of James, for instance: Luther called it an epistle of straw.

Check out this article: Aren’t We Saved by Faith Alone?. Pay close attention to the discussion of Romans 3:28. Luther changed this key scripture and changed the entire meaning of it.

You might also want to buy a great three-DVD set called Where Did the Bible Come From?. It’s almost $40, but it’s well worth it. It confirmed my decision to join the One True Church instead of a Protestant denomination.

 

[NotWorthy]

Your friend is well-intentioned, but misguided. You should have countered with the fact that “Protestantism” is founded on lies and half-truths, particularly where the bible is concerned. Look how many denominations there are; I’ve heard it’s somewhere between 30,000 and 40,000!

I don’t think this would be effective against someone who is politely telling you what’s wrong with your Church.

Maybe if you could find a way to do it less bluntly? “Say, buddy, do you happy Satan is happy with all the different churches running around each claiming to have the truth”?

 

[COPLAND_3]

Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

Don’t let this discourage you too much, but let it motivate you to learn the Faith more and to be better prepared for times like that. Forums like this and other online forums can be a great way to get you to a place where you can give clear correct answers. I have done these forums for about 6 years, and after debating doctrines over and over and over I have been able to give answers and explain them on the spot because I have done it so many times online with all kinds of opposition. One good thing about starting out with apologetics online is that you have time to research and give answers without a time limit that comes in a conversation in person.

There is a great deal of apologetic experience that you can gain on forums, and that should never be underestimated.

But like I said, don’t get discouraged, just consider it a learning experience. It has happened to me in the past. But when you run onto times that you feel a little uneasy to explain your belief in something, don’t be ashamed to say that you are not sure and that you will look it up and explain it later.

 

[MarcoPolo]

If you take a second look at what your friend said, it is built on straw. Did Paul “need” to ask others for their intercession? Isn’t going to God good enough? (Rm 15:30). And his Eucharist versus God is a false dichotomy. What is he talking about isn’t worshipping God enough? The Eucharist IS God! Jesus said, “This is my body.” Your friend may be very well polite, but he has a very “surface” view of Scripture and Jesus when the waters run far deeper.

If it is any comfort to you, I am where I am today because I could not answer Protestant challenges. I had to learn whether or not their criticisms were fair and if I was in the right place. So I went on studying Scripture on my own, and amazingly came to the same conclusions that I later found out the Church taught. So now in apologetics, it is I who try to be the polite one as best I can, and I feel at a terrible advantage to others because as long as I stick to sound Church doctrine, no counter attack can harm that sheild.

 

[paul_c]

AG not,
If you friend invited you to his church, that means he is an experienced proselytizer. Don’t feel bad that he could confuse you with his rhetoric. That’s what they do. Notice that he was poking on ancillary aspects of the faith. Candles and statues and saint worship.

Notice he didn’t ask you the real guts of the the differences between his church and ours.

He didn’t ask you whether you believed in faith alone, where the individual’s salvation is predestined by God and there’s nothing you can do to change it, good or bad. You are either 'saved" by being baptized in their church (and once you do, you go to heaven, no matter how bad you act afterwards, because God can’t lose a soul) or you are lost to Hell.

He didn’t ask you whether you believed that all the truth of the faith was in scripture and that every individual is free to interpret the will of God in it. Did he try to convince you that the traditions of the church mean nothing in comparison, even though scripture itself is an outgrowth of that traditiion. .

Did he try to convince you of the priesthood of the people, where everyone can be their own priest, no training or consecration required. And how those priests are morally and intellectually superior to Catholic priests, who give up everything (sex, money, family) and train for 6-8 years before ordination?

Did he try to convince you that the real presence of Christ in the eucharist is nothing more than symbolism, despite both scriptural and traditional documentation that asserts that jesus is really in the blood and wine.

Did he discuss with you how his religion, founded by X, is the true faith and that the Catholic Church is just wrong. Did he explain why? Did he further explain why there is one Catholic church 1.2 billion members strong and 2000 years old versus his faith, which is one of 30,000 Protestant sects.

Whenever confronted with a proselytizer from another faith. Take them right to the basics:

Salvation through faith, demonstrated by works. and the gospel of personal responsibility

The Catholic Traditions that yielded and augmented the scriptures and enable their interpretation.

The grace available through the Catholic sacrements and the sanctity of the priesthood.

You will be standing with the truth and they will have difficulty defending their positions…

 

[Genesis315]

In regards to statues, in the very chapter God forbids the worship of idols, he commands statues of cherubim be built in the holiest worship place of worship.

Anyway, if you are going to get into a verse slinging battle, here’s a good stock of ammo:

scripturecatholic.com/

These kinds can be a bit intimidating

http://bestsmileys.com/religous/3.gifhttp://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/quantacura/1.gif

but we’ll get your back!

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[ziapueblo]

One thing that I have learned is that some, not all, non-Catholic Christians that I have had discussions with jump around from one question to the other. Study up on some stuff now, lets say “idol worship,” and when you encounter him again have a discussion on just that one topic. Whenever he bounces around from one question to the other, politely stop him and keep him on the topic at hand. You will become much more effective this way.

God bless,
ZP

 

[Todd_Easton]

You may want to rehearse a response such as this: “That’s a good question. I don’t know why the Catholic Church teaches that or does that practice but I will try to find out and get back to you with an answer.”

 

[HamtramckSteve]

Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

The best answer to this question I’ve come across is from Fr. Oscar Lukefahr’s home study book “We Worship: A Guide to the Catholic Mass.”

In the frequent question section, he says

Votive candles are a way of expressing our prayers in visible form, showing our desire to pray always (Luke 18:1) and…[when they are] placed before statues of Mary and the saints, they demonstrate our wish that the saints pray for us…All candles represent our belief in Jesus, the Light of the world (John 8:12), and they remind us that the saints and believers of every age have put their trust in Jesus.

 

[Fidelis]

Some apologetics advice: Learn from your mistakes.

[1] As much as possible, don’t allow the person you are debating with to choose the topic. If you do, you are at an immediate disadvantage and are basically being led around the nose by someone who knows their own arguments very well – or at least better than you do.

[2] Ditto for letting them bombard you with multiple topics. No wonder you feel like you’ve been run through the wringer – you have been! All he has to do is pepper you with one or two objections to ten topics in which you are not confident and you are quickly crushed.

Don’t even attempt to answer them all. At some point you need to hold up your hand and say “Whoa! Let’s talk about one thing at a time.” Then you can steer the conversation to one of the topics of which you are most comfortable.

If there is NO topic on which you are confident of your logical and scriptural knowledge (yet), you need to recognize your limitations and be humble. Simply say “I don’t know, but I’ll find out and get back to you.” Then do it.

Make it your goal to learn the Faith, especially the apologetics issues. Try to learn about ONE topic (like statues) really, really well, then go on to another topic.

Head to head apologetics isn’t for everyone. You need humility, a thick skin, charity and a willingness to work hard to learn the answers. And have patience: it takes time.The fact that you have the desire is a plus. Good luck to you.

 

[Henning]

Since you work with him why not occasionally engage him in debate. Maybe focus in on one or two topics like ‘the sinlessness of Mary’ (whew tough one, debate rages in my head) that you’ve perhaps predebated here at CAF. Have patience with self over debating…
p.a…t……i…….e………n…………c………….e

 

[teachccd]

For the last nine years I have dealt with fundamentalist Christians who keep on striking me with the very Bible the Catholic Church gave them. Why do you worship statues? Why do you pray to Mary? Why do you call priests “Father”? Why do you go to a priest to confess your sins? Why do you babble with the Rosary? Why do you worship the Pope? Why do you this and why do you that???

The list is endless and then they pull out ther selected Bible verses and POW they blindside us! Well, just let me say this. We can ask them: Why are you not a Methodist or an Episcopalian or a Lutheran or a Presbyterian or a Baptist or one of the thousands of other Christian denominations that all claim the bible as their sole basis of their faith??? Why is their pastor interpreting Scripture when it is just a personal relationship with Chirst?? Why DO they go to church, take communion, get baptized, have altar calls, sing worship songs and Do so many other things when they claim that nothing you DO merits anything???

You did very well, my friend. You are in the Church that Jesus Christ founded 2000 years ago. There are answers to every question and concern our Protestant brothers and sisters can raise. Just be patient and continue to learn. You will be the strongest Catholic because of this and you will thank God for this man. I know for a fact. My ex co-worker is a Jehovah’s Witness and he wore an orange cap. Nine years later we are still friends and I became the Catholic that I am because of that same conversation that you just had…And I thank God everyday for him…Angels come in many forms…teachccd

 

[Highwayhound]

Chin up

Here are some pointers.

He rolls his eyes.

If anyone rolls their eyes at me I ask them, “Why did you roll your eyes at me?”

…I have *no problem *with catholics. I know some nice ones.

“Good! I know some nice catholics, too… when do you want to go to mass?”

My only issue is Mary(1) and Idol worship(2) and Rosaries(3).

The advice to keep such discussions to one topic is sage advice. I personally would have suggested the young man learn how to count - only means one not three. ( 3 strikes and he’s out )

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

When exchanging ideas seek to state positives - I worship God; instead of negatives - I don’t worship statues.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

This is silliness. I would be willing to wager that this young man has decorations in his house. What is the point of decorating his abode, isn’t God enough? By the way anytime someone ask a question with a negative (i.e. isn’t) they are framing the answer to suit themselves.

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture.

“Wow! Your knowledge of the bible is awesome. You would make a great catholic.”

It is okay to acknowledge others and their abilities.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

I have read enough of your posts to know are full of spirit and you have a clever mind. I have laughed many times when reading something you have posted. A suggestion would be try not to carry this sort of cross all by yourself. Trust in Jesus to help you in such matters.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

When learning how to play soccer my friends and I would sometimes get our butts whupped. Our coach would ask us what did the other team do to us? We would tell him why they “whupped” us. Then he would tell us to do exactly the same to the next team. Simple and effective.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.

On this point my young friend I have to disagree. Are you not one day closer to Easter? Are you not one day closer to joining in communion with the church that Jesus founded? By the way ask your co-worker who founded his church and remember when you ask him be nice and do not laugh.

God Bless

 

[buffalo]

I have had that feeling before. Keep plugging away and you will gain confidence and the feedback you are receiving will not unseat you. Pray for the wisdom for good answers.

 

[Ag_not]

… Are you not one day closer to Easter? Are you not one day closer to joining in communion with the church that Jesus founded? By the way ask your co-worker who founded his church and remember when you ask him be nice and do not laugh.

THIS has lifted my spirits no end. One day closer to Easter

Thank you all for your support. I promise, I did put in a defence, I didnt just lay down and take it - I just didnt do a very good job.

Think Mike Tyson v. Ugly Betty - I took a whooping, but I was still came out better looking than he did

I’m working with the guy on saturday. I’ve emailed him after reading your replies and Ive told him I appreciated our conversation today, but as someone going through initiation I dont think I did a very good job in explaining what I believe and why, so if he’s ok with it, I’d like to discuss the issue of Statues - and statues only - on saturday.

He emails back and says ‘‘cool’’

Que theme music from Rocky. I gotta get up at 4am and start pounding the road man

 

[Ag_not]

I dont quite know why - but Ive gone from feeling disillusioned and a bit flat to hyped up and excited now This is good for me I think. Im hyper on guard for being led astray which I wont be - but to be pitched against someone and hold my own defending the church I want to be part of so much with all my heart and soul - this is good for me. It’s a reality check for my understanding.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Maybe you can invite him to this forum to kick around some doctrine with us.

Glad to see that your spirits are lifted. Times like that are humbling to say the least, but for those of us who are slaves to truth we can take those times and grow from it.

One of my favorite quotes…

Advance with me when you share my certainty. Seek with me when you have the same doubts. Except my interpretation when it is you who is in error. And win me over to yours if it is I who am wrong. St. Augustine