My first battering in the apologetics arena

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Ag_not said:
Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.
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You need to assemble articles, references, and website links to do your apologetics for you.

Tell him up front that you have no intention of arguing with him.

These folks, from thousands of denominations, are educated by their pastors the target Catholics because they are easy money. There’s no need for them to go after small potato also-rans like the JWs, Mormons, etc., when all they need to do is focus on Catholics. There are over a billion of us.

It’s a cash-flow thing.
 
paul_c said:
==> Don’t ignore the fact that the enemies of the faith are quick to jump on all the controversial issues and that can highlight them for you. Its hard to digest the 1000 page + scriptures and the 500 page + Catechism without plus Chruch history without having something to focus you. You mention learn the areas of disagreement. Well the best way to do that is find someone who has different views…

I don’t think we are in general disagreement here, anyway. I think we both agree that there is benefit to interacting on blogs like these (otherwise we wouldn’t do it). And I agree also, that there is no reason to just go out a pick a fight with this guy… But if it happens, don’t shy away…
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I think you are missing my point. I am definitely NOT saying that interaction with non Catholics or anti-Catholics is a bad thing. I am NOT saying that debating on forums is a bad thing. I am NOT saying that being questioned by others isn’t helpful.

I do all of the above quite a bit---- Or used to anyway.

What I am saying is that someone who is not even Catholic yet ( ! ) but who is going through the process should concentrate on the process and not bother with all of the debating point after point after point.

There is so much beauty and depth in what this person is going through that it seems short-sighted to encourage them to go about arguing faith with people.

Listen, the views here at CAF are skewed in favor of debating others because that is largely what those of us who come here are interested in—defending the faith. But it seems to me that any spiritual director worth his/her salt would not even consider recommending that Ag go out and do this sort of thing at this stage.

A lot of us—me included—get so caught up in debating, arguing, proving, etc etc that we lose sight of the truth of our faith.
We sometimes want others new to the faith to get out there and start baggin’ debate victories more than we want the person to truly know and learn his/her faith, and–importantly—to experience and live his/her faith.

Simple question:

What is more important for Ag to do during these last few months before Easter?:

1-Debate any anti-Catholic he comes across.

2-Spend time in prayer near the Blessed Sacrament.

Don’t lose sight on what is TRULY going on with those becoming Catholic.

At this stage—more spiritual exercises and development than attempting to get into debating an umpteenth round of Sola Scriptura.

At this stage----St. Francis DeSales’ Introduction To The Devout Life.

Plenty of time later for the falsely nice, falsely humble, anti-Catholic arguer who believes you aren’t even Christian and who spends his time trying to “save” you “out of” that “evil church”.

There is a time for debating American know-nothing Christians and a time to keep your mouth shut and sit and read, say, Cardinal Ratzinger’s (BXVI) Introduction to Christianity.

At this stage—One is infinitely more important than the other.
 
Bravo! it seems we spend more time arguing with our brothren in faith instead of figuring why those differences continue to exist. humility is hard to come by. oh, we understand the concept, but taking it to heart, that’s a horse of a different color.

and that goes for everybody, everybody. as catholics, we must be humble enough to know that the Holy Spirit does not stop at the the vatican. it goes and comes like the wind.

we’d do well to remember the wisdom of st. paul, who said that the body of christ has many parts. we, different churches, are all parts of the mystical body of jesus.

united we stand a better chance of defeating the beast and his endeavors.
 
AlwaysAsking said:
Hi, …yeah–

I’m an evangelical christian. I am: a) called by the holy spirit to-- at the least-- study catholicism; and b) totally fed up with a lot of nonsense in the evangelical community.

as you can see, one is much more laudable than the other. I am doing my best not to confuse the two.

I completely believe in arming people with a little, gentle “bible-foo.” You know, respectful self-defense. Somehow, so many of my fellow evangelicals assume that, as long as they have a scripture as an excuse, they can do whatever they want. And if they want to get out of something? Then they say the relevant bible verses were just “for the culture of the time,” (like not wearing complicated hairstyles and expensive jewelry; Lord knows ‘vanity’ is just one of those outdated, medieval sins!).

Anyhoo, I don’t like to hear about christians picking on one another. I’m tired of the rationalizations for that.
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Well, y’all come on over and we’ll set a spell. :coffee: :coffee: I can’t speak to “the nonsense in the Evangelical community” (and wouldn’t if I could) but the Catholic Church * can be “nonsense central.” Still, there’s nobody at the top saying that our sins are OK. And the threads of Scripture, history, and continuity of doctrine are extremely compelling.*
 
NPS said:
I think you are missing my point. I am definitely NOT saying that interaction with non Catholics or anti-Catholics is a bad thing. I am NOT saying that debating on forums is a bad thing. I am NOT saying that being questioned by others isn’t helpful.

I do all of the above quite a bit---- Or used to anyway.

What I am saying is that someone who is not even Catholic yet ( ! ) but who is going through the process should concentrate on the process and not bother with all of the debating point after point after point.

There is so much beauty and depth in what this person is going through that it seems short-sighted to encourage them to go about arguing faith with people.

Listen, the views here at CAF are skewed in favor of debating others because that is largely what those of us who come here are interested in—defending the faith. But it seems to me that any spiritual director worth his/her salt would not even consider recommending that Ag go out and do this sort of thing at this stage.

A lot of us—me included—get so caught up in debating, arguing, proving, etc etc that we lose sight of the truth of our faith.
We sometimes want others new to the faith to get out there and start baggin’ debate victories more than we want the person to truly know and learn his/her faith, and–importantly—to experience and live his/her faith.

Simple question:

What is more important for Ag to do during these last few months before Easter?:

1-Debate any anti-Catholic he comes across.

2-Spend time in prayer near the Blessed Sacrament.

Don’t lose sight on what is TRULY going on with those becoming Catholic.

At this stage—more spiritual exercises and development than attempting to get into debating an umpteenth round of Sola Scriptura.

At this stage----St. Francis DeSales’ Introduction To The Devout Life.

Plenty of time later for the falsely nice, falsely humble, anti-Catholic arguer who believes you aren’t even Christian and who spends his time trying to “save” you “out of” that “evil church”.

There is a time for debating American know-nothing Christians and a time to keep your mouth shut and sit and read, say, Cardinal Ratzinger’s (BXVI) Introduction to Christianity.

At this stage—One is infinitely more important than the other.
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Fair enough. Your wisdom on this exceeds my own. And you are right, I read a lot before I ever entered any debates on the faith.

I like your choice of “The devout life” by St. Francis DeSales. - 400 years old but still pertinent. Life of Christ by Fulton Sheen would also be a good selection…
 
Don’t get me wrong—it seems to me that Ag’s eager interest in defending the faith is a sign that later on there will be much fruitful activity in that area. It’s just that for now it seems to me like putting the cart before the horse.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in reading DeSales’ classic, I strongly recommend the version by Msgr. Charles Dollen (Alba House) which is “cleaner” and easier to follow without the artifice of writing to Philothea. Plus, it has the added benefit of usually being the cheapest version in the store. All Pauline Books & Media stores carry this version (among other versions, of course).

jknirp.com/dollen.htm
 
NPS said:
Don’t get me wrong—it seems to me that Ag’s eager interest in defending the faith is a sign that later on there will be much fruitful activity in that area. It’s just that for now it seems to me like putting the cart before the horse.

Incidentally, if anyone is interested in reading DeSales’ classic, I strongly recommend the version by Msgr. Charles Dollen (Alba House) which is “cleaner” and easier to follow without the artifice of writing to Philothea. Plus, it has the added benefit of usually being the cheapest version in the store. All Pauline Books & Media stores carry this version (among other versions, of course).

jknirp.com/dollen.htm
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When I was an eager convert to the Episcopal Church at age 16, my pastor recommended Introduction to the Devout Life and I ate it up! Even with “Philothea.”
 
The second he rolled his eyes when you said you were becoming Catholic is the second you should have ended the conversation. This guy sounds like a royal jerk, don’t waste your time with idiots who don’t respect your personal faith.
Ag_not said:
Well today, I’m working with a guy. He invites me to his Church. Seems like one of those little independent reformed baptist uniterian free episscopalian affairs - or something like that. I tell him Im grateful for the invite but I attend a catholic church and Im going to be received hopefully at easter.

He rolls his eyes. I say, dont tell me, WOB and all that - I dont want to hear it. He’s nice and says no, I have no problem with catholics. I know some nice ones. My only issue is Mary and Idol worship and Rosaries.

So I explain my experiences, and he doesnt dismiss them. Like I said. He’s nice.

I then try to explain I dont worship statues. I dont honor Mary above God. I dont repeat pagan babbling phrases in the Rosary.

And I felt terrible. Empty. Everything he countered with made far more sense than anything I said. He was simple and polite. Asked nice easy questions. Example - Whats the point of the statues at all. I accept you dont worship them. I accept they direct your mind to God. But whats the point of them at all. You believe in transsubstanciation - so isnt just worshipping God alone enough. Why the candles in front of a statue of a saint. ???

And he had more. Tons more. And every answer I gave just seemed laughable even to my own ears. He knew his Bible. Every single phrase and statement he came out with, he backed it up with Old and new testament scripture. And it all made perfect sense. And everything I recountrered with, just sounded laughable.

But he was kind, and didnt laugh. And respected the fact I was going to join the catholic church.

But I was left feeling empty, and stupid, and dumb, and disillusioned.

Im no apologist that’s for sure - but the most uncomfortable thing was I was left feeling so inadequate.

Oh well. Every day cant be a good day I guess.
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Ah, Bruxilda, you are such a help to me. I’ve been fighting my depression lately, and your story always lifts me up. Even this “defeat.” I, too, was already practicing apologetics before I was confirmed!

Go to the CA Library and read up on Saints. You can also search it for statues, to read even more.

As others have already warned, be ready for him to try to drag you off the main subject. (Don’t take it as a subtle attack. It happens all the time in normal conversation. In fact, with my ADD, I’m very good at it…) Be prepared to say something like, “I’m not through explaining ___ yet. Let’s get back to your question later.”

And, the simpler your answer, the better. Why do we have statues?
Because we like them. There are plenty of Catholic churches that are plain and don’t have a lot of statues.

Why do we light candles? It symbolizes our prayer, and helps us remember to “pray without ceasing,” as the flame burns without ceasing - at least until the wax runs out.

Why do we pray to saints? This is a bit more complicated. Break it down.

Do we think that, if we pray to a saint to get something for us, it is that saint who says yes or no?
Of course not. That would be making that saint equal to God, and of course we don’t do that. Only our Triune God can say yes or no. The saint just asks Him on our behalf.

But why do we need saints to ask God for us? Why not go to Him directly?
Well, we don’t need them. We can go directly to God, no problem. A couple of reasons we pray to saints: One, it’s good to have more than one person praying on our behalf. Isn’t that why we ask our friends on earth to pray for us? Two, sometimes I know what I want, but I’m no expert on the subject. A patron saint of the subject will be; why not ask him or her?

But the saints are dead. What good is it to pray to dead people?
The saints’ bodies are dead. The souls of the saints are in Heaven. (Rev 6:9 & 18:20) It is our bodies which will be raised at the second coming; our souls already have eternal life. If he says that our souls sleep after death, until the Last Judgment, ask him to prove it from the Bible.

Hope this helps!

If he asks you why you have to look anywhere other than the Bible, just say we have 2000 years of teaching and interpretation to look through, and it takes a while.

It’d be a good idea to take a Bible with you, unless he habitually carries one.

God bless you, and have fun!

Love,

Ruthie
 
Awww, Intro to the Devout Life without Philothea?!?:sad_bye: No way!
 
That is nice.

We have here in my country a charismatic pastor who before used to be very much against catholics and accusing them for worshiping statues and pics.

After he went on a trip to Jerusalem and met the christians there it made great impression on him and he acctually changed his opinion about catholics and nowadays he is acctually defending what he before used to attack.

All this resulted that now he has much contact with catholics and he use to be at meetings with catholic charismatics and other christians.

He even invited our bishop to his church and they have some contact still, all this because he admitted that before he was wrong and acting without knowledge.

So even the most hopeless case can change 😃
 
Ag_not said:
Thank you all so sinclerelly for your wise words. I have taken them all on board. We met and had something to eat. I dont think he wants to talk religion with me any more. 😊
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Uh…

:eek:

:clapping:

I find it hard to believe that you were flustered with this guy on the first encounter. That was GREAT.

Maybe we should call you “The Natural” due to your sweet apologetics swing! :choocho:

The best thing you did was to keep it focused on one subject. Great job.
 
Just one thing to point out----

A lot of these guys are fake-nice and fake-accepting of Catholics.

He said he “had no problem with Catholics” except for a few issues.

Of course, he was trying to be nice to get you to later be more open to his true position:
Look, I like you, I’m concerned for you. I just don’t want you making a mistake you’ll regret forever. Your soul is at stake here you know. How awesome is that. And I don’t want you misled. Catholics are nice people. I know many. I like them. But they’re following a Gospel that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And they do, no matter how they try to disguise it, practice paganism. Worshipping a pagan Goddess, praying to the dead, lighting candles to statues, the Rosary, the mass itself is pure paganism and cannibalism for Pete’s sake!!! I’m concerned you’re going to be seriously misled and regret it. I want you to see and know the truth, before it’s too late
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This is so common. I have several evangelical friends who don’t debate me because I know a little bit about defending the faith.

Although they are nice to me they are convinced I am in deep doodoo church-wise. They don’t know how to approach me on it. LOL. I am working on them bit-by-bit. You can’t eat an evangelical elephant at one sitting. 😉

That’s why I appreciate what you’ve done here, Ag.
You kept it focused. Disarmed him on that issue. Now let what you’ve done sink in to him. He may work through it and come out the other end in a more truly tolerant frame of mind. (He may not, of course, but God bless you for trying.)
 
NPS said:
I find it hard to believe that you were flustered with this guy on the first encounter. That was GREAT.

Maybe we should call you “The Natural” due to your sweet apologetics swing! :choocho:

The best thing you did was to keep it focused on one subject. Great job.
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NPS - it was all thanks to your pointers and the many other brillant pieces of advice I received here. I kept it focused on ONE issue only. I Knew what we were going to discuss this time, I read all I could on the subject with all the pointers I got here, and I wont be entering willinngly into the apologetics arena voluntarily anythime soon 😃 I’m no natural apologist :o BUT, without a doubt I feel I know this subject quite well now, and how it conforms entirely with the teachings of scripture and the church. I have NO doubts at all. And was was better able to communicate this, this time, to Jay. I felt bad I let the church down at our last encounter. Thanks to all of you here, I think I did a bit better this time explaining the churches true position.

The exercise was good for me - it made me research a single issue thoroughly - well, reasonably thoroughly, enough to be able to justify what catholics believe and practice. So in that sense it was a good exercise to do.

As I was advised - I want to savor every minute of my journey up to Baptism and Confirmation and reception into Christ’s One True Church.

Apologetics can wait till after Easter 😛 None of you lot need my help 😛

This place is FULL of very wise people. I’m lucky to have access to you all. 👍

Bruxilda.
 
Ag_not said:
NPS -
The exercise was good for me - it made me research a single issue thoroughly - well, reasonably thoroughly, enough to be able to justify what catholics believe and practice. So in that sense it was a good exercise to do.

I know from my own experience that it was not until I had to defend my faith from an evangelical non-denom that I learned so much and came to appreciate the Faith. I too have had to research and learn which I think many Catholics in these forums are led hear to do as well. Intro to a Devout Life is awesome by the way. I like it for it’s spicific things to do. It almost read like a spiritual how to book. DeSales is my fav!!!:cool:
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140 days until Easter!

I enjoyed reading the other post -"Statues, a fish dish and the cartographiconiclast!!!

One question - you were nice to him right?

Also, remember humility 👍
 
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