My first encounter with a Jehovah's witness

[Nicea325]

I agree. None of that would have meant anything to me when I was a JW. I would not have even understood the language. It takes an emotional break to even get a chance to introduce cognitive dissonance. If you really want to try and “plant seeds” in a JW you better off reading a book on cults and high-control groups than on apologetic theology. Author Steve Hassan has a good one. Look it up on Google or Amazon.

Go to an XJW site for more suggestions, like www.jwsupportforum.com

or

Jeff Schwehm’s site : catholicxjw.proboards.com/index.cgi

That is good advice coming from an ex-JW…

 

[Nicea325]

Even if a jw has an interest in what you are saying, they may not shopw that interest or the other jw with him/her will go straight to the elders to report it and make plenty of trouble for the person to whom you were speaking. That person may even be reprimanded in front of the entire congregation. They humiliate their people frequently.
The best you can hope for is that the person takes what you have pointed out home and look for more information behind closed doors.
I know all this is true as I once was associated with the jws.

That is a mind-control game and it is very common of cults.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

one of the problems you would have in having a theological debate with a JW is that they are completely uneducated in anything but their own religion-if even that. They are not allowed to go to college and to even think about studying Comparative Religion or even Theology 101 or Philosophy would get them disfellowshipped. They are not allowed to read books on these subjects. So unless you are talking to someone who already had an education before they converted to JW or someone who has enough doubts to do the forbidden and look online, it is considered with the utmost suspicion and rejected out of hand. They are told to only use their own books for reference and not to go beyond their own dogma.

If someone started talking to me with those ideas and concepts I might just nod my head and let them keep on talking all day and count the time on my slip as me doing the preaching. That would be an easy day instead of walking around out in the heat and getting doors slammed in my face! If you started to make sense I would immediately hear the warning bells of demons in my ears and put a halt to the conversation, or if I was feeling paritcularly sharp that day I might even quote random scriptures back at you out of context from a poor translation (their own New World Translation).

I can tell you what got me out intellectually. It was not anything anyone had ever said to me. And I had many many people try to jog my logic thru the years. It was a mistake I found in their own Interlinear Greek Translation in Revelation chapter 7 that completely dissolves their doctrine on who will go to heaven. They translated a Greek word two different ways to support their doctrine. the mistake was in thinking that everyone was too dumb to notice it. I found it totally by mistake. (well kinda–you know Holy Spirit and all!) What I mean is I was not looking for it. Right there in their own book! And no one could explain it away. I said–if they lied about this what else did they lie about? And I went online. That was it. there was no turning back. BUT—and this is a BIG BUT…that last year I was in I saw murder, suicide, lost my house, foster children, all my possessions and even my job and my pets due to fraud by another JW and the elders told me I could do nothing about it because they were my “brother”. I was emotionally devastated. I had nothing left to lose but my faith in the Watchtower.

 

[mark_a]

yeah–I had heard that and forgot! well I guess it proves my point. I wonder if they are ever even in the same room together? wouldn’t you like to be a fly on the wall at that family reunion?

Actually, the pope encouraged her to follow her faith.

noticiasteocraticas.org/pope-remembers-steffie/

 

[mark_a]

that last year I was in I saw murder, suicide, lost my house, foster children, all my possessions and even my job and my pets due to fraud by another JW and the elders told me I could do nothing about it because they were my “brother”. I was emotionally devastated. I had nothing left to lose but my faith in the Watchtower.

Wow.

Peace be with you.

 

[wmscott]

I was born and raised third generation JW and went as far as I could go as a female in that religion (most former JWs will tell you it is a cult, and by some definitions it definitely is!) I did not leave until I was 34 years old. I was even a regular pioneer—which is their lingo for a local missionary required to get in 1000 hours a year(at the time) of evangelizing work. I did that for 15 years! It is very discouraging to say the least to try to even make any points of logic with JWs. The training against any other indoctrination but their own is akin to brainwashng. We were trained to handle any argument/any situation, even with our own text books to respond ‘properly’ (“Reasoning from the Scriptures” is the right hand of every JW knocking on doors. It has word-for-word responses for ‘overcoming every objection’. Anyone who wishes to engage JWs in conversation needs to get a copy of this–oftentimes on eBay but impossible thru JWs.)

The only thing that jars a JW out of their mind-control is cognitive dissonance which most of the time starts with internal challenges. Either internal to the individual–like in their own lives and kept secret from the “Organization” ie doubts, marital troubles, addictions, abuse; or internal as in people trouble in the social network ie gossip, affairs, even criminal activity like pedophilia. This is the only thing that breaks up the mental block to be fertile for theological doubts and the introduction of logic. Truly, without this vulnerability even the Pope is wasting his breath trying to convert a JW! Very rarely a “new light” on an old doctrine of theirs will bring about a minor exodus of members. But then it is turned around and blamed on the ones leaving as lacking faith.

Recently such a thing has happened with one of their main doctrines of the timing of the ‘End’. They have in the last 50 or so years claimed that the “generation” alive to see 1914 (which was their target date for the coming of the Kingdom, invisibly) would see Armageddon in their lifetime. Well obviously that didn’t happen! So the “new light” on the subject as of this passed Summer is some kind of convoluted explanation of the meaning of what a “generation” really is and claiming it to be more abstract and covering ‘overlapping’ lifetimes. (Such as grandchildren still being included in the ‘generation’ if they were born while the original grandparents were still alive…) Even to hardliners this is a stretch. But to stay faithful to the Organization and remain in good standing to avoid being completely shunned and cut off from everyone in your family, friends, and even your job and life in general, JWs have to accept this explanation without question or any evidence of doubt. This is a vulnerable time for many JWs and if handled properly, could be the eye-opener for some.

But there is fail-safe built in to their religion that makes it nearly impossible to break thru. They are told everyone who is not a JW is from Satan the Devil, is out to get them killed, and not to even touch or look at other options or they will be absolutely cut off from this life and receive ‘second-death’ in the future. So if your conversation edifies you, they by all means continue. But it is most likely only supporting their theories that Satan is out to get them and they are being persecuted by you and tempted by your demonic teachings.

I do recommend however that if you engage a JW in conversation that you do not do it at your own home. I was trained to be relentless in returning to convert the householder even if they refused me and turned me away–but were still friendly about it. And every time I was not chased away or threatened–it was potential conversion that I counted by number on a monthly Time Slip they all have to turn in. So you can be sure that what you said to that old woman–did not make a bit of difference to her, except maybe to strengthen her faith that you were wrong and she was right, and she counted her time with you!

All I can do now as a former JW is manitain a type of ministry for those who have already managed to leave or get kicked out. And pray for the others. There is a huge XJW presence on the internet. Which is why JWs are not supposed to be online. (but they are.)

I have a font at the front door, will the JW melt if I sprinkle them after letting them know I was Catholic and that it is Holy Water I am sprinkling on them?

 

[Nicea325]

one of the problems you would have in having a theological debate with a JW is that they are completely uneducated in anything but their own religion-if even that. They are not allowed to go to college and to even think about studying Comparative Religion or even Theology 101 or Philosophy would get them disfellowshipped. They are not allowed to read books on these subjects. So unless you are talking to someone who already had an education before they converted to JW or someone who has enough doubts to do the forbidden and look online, it is considered with the utmost suspicion and rejected out of hand. They are told to only use their own books for reference and not to go beyond their own dogma.

If someone started talking to me with those ideas and concepts I might just nod my head and let them keep on talking all day and count the time on my slip as me doing the preaching. That would be an easy day instead of walking around out in the heat and getting doors slammed in my face! If you started to make sense I would immediately hear the warning bells of demons in my ears and put a halt to the conversation, or if I was feeling paritcularly sharp that day I might even quote random scriptures back at you out of context from a poor translation (their own New World Translation).

I can tell you what got me out intellectually. It was not anything anyone had ever said to me. And I had many many people try to jog my logic thru the years. It was a mistake I found in their own Interlinear Greek Translation in Revelation chapter 7 that completely dissolves their doctrine on who will go to heaven. They translated a Greek word two different ways to support their doctrine. the mistake was in thinking that everyone was too dumb to notice it. I found it totally by mistake. (well kinda–you know Holy Spirit and all!) What I mean is I was not looking for it. Right there in their own book! And no one could explain it away. I said–if they lied about this what else did they lie about? And I went online. That was it. there was no turning back. BUT—and this is a BIG BUT…that last year I was in I saw murder, suicide, lost my house, foster children, all my possessions and even my job and my pets due to fraud by another JW and the elders told me I could do nothing about it because they were my “brother”. I was emotionally devastated. I had nothing left to lose but my faith in the Watchtower.

You know Ryan you are so correct about your introductory paragraph. I once had a roommate who was a JW and he had no formal education and told me everything I had shown him (early church history,ECF writings,scripture,etc) were all from apostate websites and sources. Oh my GOD! How ignorant and brain-washed.How can one allow themselves to fall into such narrow-minded traps?

 

[Padrej]

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

you might want to also counter with Exodus 34:14
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) (New king James Version)
EVEN in their own New World translation:
14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;
Sounds like God’s proper name is not Jehovah to me if you take things literally.
So why do they not call themselves “Jealous Witnesses?”

 

[Nicea325]

you might want to also counter with Exodus 34:14
14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God) (New king James Version)
EVEN in their own New World translation:
14 For you must not prostrate yourself to another god, because Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, he is a jealous God;
Sounds like God’s proper name is not Jehovah to me if you take things literally.
So why do they not call themselves “Jealous Witnesses?”

Actually you know what Padrej? My ex-roommate who is a JW stated that JW’s existed long before any Christian Church? Oh dear!

 

[Padrej]

Actually you know what Padrej? My ex-roommate who is a JW stated that JW’s existed long before any Christian Church? Oh dear!

Why then are there no historical writings to back that statement???

 

[Nicea325]

Why then are there no historical writings to back that statement???

Well we both know the answer,but I’ll give you the JW answer: The Bible.

 

[Ravyn_Guiliani]

JWs are taught that Adam “witnessed” Jehovah when he walked and talked with Him in the Garden of Eden. But the first faithful JW was Abel. Then Enoch, Noah, up to Abraham who “witnessed” Jehovah more than once in his lifetime and so on.
They also claim that their modern religion did not start with Charles Russell in 1879, but had been continuously maintained in secret, underground to save it from the apostasy that started after the last apostle died. And all the faithful men of old before Jesus were also JWs who would be resurrected to the earth (not heaven) to be Princes. In fact they even had a prophecy that claimed it would happen soon after their target date of 1914 for God’s Kingdom to return invisibly to the Earth, and they built a house in San Diego called Beth Sarim to house them. Google ‘Beth Sarim’. It was a small palace.

 

[Nicea325]

JWs are taught that Adam “witnessed” Jehovah when he walked and talked with Him in the Garden of Eden. But the first faithful JW was Abel. Then Enoch, Noah, up to Abraham who “witnessed” Jehovah more than once in his lifetime and so on.
They also claim that their modern religion did not start with Charles Russell in 1879, but had been continuously maintained in secret, underground to save it from the apostasy that started after the last apostle died. And all the faithful men of old before Jesus were also JWs who would be resurrected to the earth (not heaven) to be Princes. In fact they even had a prophecy that claimed it would happen soon after their target date of 1914 for God’s Kingdom to return invisibly to the Earth, and they built a house in San Diego called Beth Sarim to house them. Google ‘Beth Sarim’. It was a small palace.

Oh yes…heard that one a million times,even though historically and scripturally there is no sound evidence supporting such a claim.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

My suggestion is to read Jason Evert’s book “Answering Jehovah’a Witnesses” if you are interested in discerning the differences of our faith and their belief system.

Take a highlighter to that book and your bible.
Make a “cheat sheet” for each chapter; condensing the points, scriptures.

JW and LDS both have different meanings for the same words. They do not believe in the Trinity or Divinity of Jesus Christ = no Christianity without those doctrines.

A big thing to focus on is John 8:58 (NW Translation, 1984 ed, page 1341) WHY would people attempt to stone Jesus for the JW interpretation “I have been” normally known as “I am.”

An amazing scripture is John 6:66. People left Jesus Himself when they couldn’t believe him that the Eucharist was real. The CD by Dr. Scott Hahn is a mind-blower “The Fourth Cup” (Lighthouse Catholic media?) - hang on to your hats over that one! One of the gems of my collection.

Ask JW’s about their PRACTICAL application of scripture in terms of the Beatitudes?
Where are their Hospitals? Schools? Orphanages? Universities? Cemeteries?
Retirement homes? Etc.

When I asked my JW friend where are their hospitals, schools, etc, she was FROZEN, silent, maybe embarrassed; she couldn’t answer. It was a real GOTCHA MOMENT.

Do we only:
feed the Roman Catholic poor
clothe the Roman Catholic naked
bury the Roman Catholic dead…
NO, WE SEE CHRIST IN ALL (ala Blessed Teresa of Calcutta).

Also, the old JW books speak of the CROSS & such; A good one is Harp of God.

Another interesting point:
New World Translation see Jn1:1 “…, and the Word was a god.” (1984 ed., Page 1327)
JW printed “The Bible in Living English (Byington)” see Jn 1:1 “…, and the Word was God.” (1981 ed., Page 1365)

Amazing comparison and I have plenty more.

Bottom line: no matter how strong YOU THINK you are in YOUR FAITH, don’t fool yourself, GET PREPARED! Either group can twist you into a doctrinal pretzel faster than you can say Order of Melchizedek! After all the LDS converted Isaiah Bennett, former Roman Catholic Priest - he’s back though & he has a book or 2 about LDS.

 

[Rkirby]

one of the problems you would have in having a theological debate with a JW is that they are completely uneducated in anything but their own religion-if even that. They are not allowed to go to college and to even think about studying Comparative Religion or even Theology 101 or Philosophy would get them disfellowshipped. They are not allowed to read books on these subjects. So unless you are talking to someone who already had an education before they converted to JW or someone who has enough doubts to do the forbidden and look online, it is considered with the utmost suspicion and rejected out of hand. They are told to only use their own books for reference and not to go beyond their own dogma.

If someone started talking to me with those ideas and concepts I might just nod my head and let them keep on talking all day and count the time on my slip as me doing the preaching. That would be an easy day instead of walking around out in the heat and getting doors slammed in my face! If you started to make sense I would immediately hear the warning bells of demons in my ears and put a halt to the conversation, or if I was feeling paritcularly sharp that day I might even quote random scriptures back at you out of context from a poor translation (their own New World Translation).

I can tell you what got me out intellectually. It was not anything anyone had ever said to me. And I had many many people try to jog my logic thru the years. It was a mistake I found in their own Interlinear Greek Translation in Revelation chapter 7 that completely dissolves their doctrine on who will go to heaven. They translated a Greek word two different ways to support their doctrine. the mistake was in thinking that everyone was too dumb to notice it. I found it totally by mistake. (well kinda–you know Holy Spirit and all!) What I mean is I was not looking for it. Right there in their own book! And no one could explain it away. I said–if they lied about this what else did they lie about? And I went online. That was it. there was no turning back. BUT—and this is a BIG BUT…that last year I was in I saw murder, suicide, lost my house, foster children, all my possessions and even my job and my pets due to fraud by another JW and the elders told me I could do nothing about it because they were my “brother”. I was emotionally devastated. I had nothing left to lose but my faith in the Watchtower.

I had some JWs coming to my home for about 2 years. They came to the door one day and I decided to take them on. At first we would just visit and talk about things. I got on the internet and educated myself about their teachings. They would make copies of things and bring them to me. I would read them and make notes and then we would discuss them the next time. I did show them where one of their documents was mistranslated. The word Catholic was left out of their translation. One of the women (let’s call her Ladyone) seemed to study it for a while. I just continued talking with the other lady so the first one wouldn’t be interrupted. She got a look in her eyes that I think showed that she was a little disconcerted. Later when we got into the bible study they provide we talked about baptism. I turned to Matt where Jesus sends the Apostles out to Baptize in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Ladyone went into study mode again and looked real hard at the verse so I again talked with the other lady so she wouldn’t be interrupted. She acted slightly different but I didn’t want to study her too hard after that or say anything to her. You know what happens to those who try to learn something. Anyway, the sessions came to an end when we got to Chapter 4 of their bible study book. I mentioned something about taking on their teaching that Jesus was only human and that we were going to be disagreeing on a lot. Basically, I told them I was looking forward to the fight. They never came back after that. Oh, well. I knew I would have a hard time stomaching that chapter.

All in all I learned a lot about my Catholic faith in refuting their teachings. I never planned on converting and neither did they. I provided them with a nice refuge and hours of witnessing to put on their charts. I hope they leave the JWs someday.

 

[RonTheNewJew]

I always appreciate the honesty and complete authenticity of the Jehovah’s Witnesses who come to our door with their various tracts or booklets. We actively discuss scripture with them. They keep the simplified (Protestant) version of the “Lord’s Supper” when the modern Jews start Passover with the Seder celebration.

Also, I like their dedication to separation from the world’s worldliness. I don’t know how far that goes in their daily lives, but they appear to be dedicated to serving the needs of others even if at their local I guess what they still call Kingdom Halls.

I think what they have tried to do is to try to find a way to unite the Bible in such a way as not to lose sight of what I believe, and I think they believe, is the pre-Christ-on-earth Christianity as it connects through Christ to the spreading of the Gospel that was spelled out in Ezekiel, the prophet’s description of God’s “laws, statutes and judgements” whereby believers would learn of God’s ways and “do them.”

While they believe that Jesus was created by God, and I believe that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit have always existed, I note that while Jesus was on earth as a human being, He always prayed to His Father. I think that all three members of the Godhead have always existed because only they know how long time, itself, has existed. We humans are too finite to be able to fathom such a concept. As followers of God, it is not our business to try to understand what God is beyond that which he has let us know about.

 

[RazzsMom]

My DH worked for our local phone company for over 30 years and spent nearly 20 of those years working with a very nice man who was a “big deal” in his JW chapter. “Charlie” would ask my DH to ask me questions re: Catholic belief. (At the time, I was in RCIA.) After both DH and I joined the Catholic Church, Charlie stopped any real “witnessing” to us. What really struck DH as so weird about the JW was when he visited Charlie’s house. Although Charlie was making the same money that DH made, Charlie’s house had packed dirt floors. Rather than pay to have flooring put into the home he built, he gave that money to his Kingdom Hall. He felt that packed dirt floors were good enough. I felt very sorry for his wife and kids.

BTW: The JW stopped coming to my door when I began to keep Catholic pamphlets to give to them when they tried to give me a copy of the Watchtower!

 

[Eklecktika]

Even if a jw has an interest in what you are saying, they may not shopw that interest or the other jw with him/her will go straight to the elders to report it and make plenty of trouble for the person to whom you were speaking. That person may even be reprimanded in front of the entire congregation. They humiliate their people frequently.

:imsorry:

 

[remjsmom76]

:shrug:You know something similar happend to me about a month ago. We had just moved to our new house and dh and I were taking boxes from the garage to the house and we had our garage door opened. Then we saw the “parade” of people and I thought to myself “Lord not today please I dont have time” I took a box in, and dh came in and said to me he saw a friend in that group that didnt acknowledge him…he did feel hurt. anyways about an hour later, a woman comes into my drive way and askes me if I can speak with her. I kindly told her I was busy but I had a few minutes.

she told me me almost the same thing that old woman told you. That Gods Name is Jehova and he wants us to call him by his name, because it gives him great pleasure to hear his name.

I said to her “I am a Catholic and nothing will make me change that. I have taught catholic doctrine to children for a long time now and so has my husband. For us GOD is our Father not our friend. Would you call your father by his first name?” she answered “no” I said “so why would you call your Heavenly father by his name. It is disresepctful to call our Father by his name.” She stammered for while and then said to me “Well I can appericiate your views on this and I would love to leave you this pamphlet that explains why Jehovah wants us to use his name.” I took it and she said “Later maybe we can sit down and discuss it further” I said “yes, that would be good. I can teach you my religion so you understand it better and you can teach me yours so I can understand your mind better. that way we can both have tolerance for each others religon and not spread negativity about each other in the future.” She has yet to come back.

I don’t know if this is in the right palce, but anyways…

I had my first encounter with a Jehovah’s witness who attempted to covert me I suppose. I was sitting down and she was just standing there so I moved over, since she was elderly. She started talking about the Bible and stuff and I guessed her religion.

She talked about how we must call God by the right name: Jehovah.

My rebutal: Names are symbols. If we say the word “house”, the word house is not really a house. Its a symbol for a real house. Because we are human and we are limited, we need symbols and names to explain higher meanings. That is why we have so many symbols- things that are tangible for us- in the Church, so we can more easily connect with God.

On the other hand, God is unlimited. The names we come up with are simply for us to have something to call him. It doesn’t mean he has a name. So there is no proper “name” for him. To me, using “God” shows how he is unlimited.

Anyways, thats what I said, more or less. Thats what came to my head. At first I was annoyed with her, but I was actually quite glad by the end. I enjoy discussing religion with other people. It helps **me ** learn more. I just thought I would share.

 

[dj_dave]

[SIGN]

If you hope to move the JW people toward Christianity, take the time to study their beliefs, though not from their publications until you truly understand the errors. Catholic Answers has some pretty good books that will arm you with the knowledge that you need.

The JWs have been victimized by teachers of simple platitudes, thin research, and zero qualifications. I always talk to them and let them know I feel they are victims and that I will be praying for them. Because I have studied their teachings, as they are for the moment, I always take their literature under the understanding that I will contribute nothing. I use it for further study, comparing it with what the Church teaches and I always take the time to research the cited verses. Seeing how loose the links are from a real Bible to JW teaching always reinforces my belief that their faith is poorly placed.

Slamming the door on the JWs is what they expect. They have been taught that it is a sign that they “are in the truth” and that the door slammer is rejecting God. They always seem very uncomfortable when they are sent off with a smile and a promise of prayer.

[/SIGN]

…"*though not from their publications???" *…If you are going to pray for us…pray that we reach you soon.

web.archive.org/web/20031204162016/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/pageindex.htm

web.archive.org/web/20031212165947/mysite.freeserve.com/newworldtranslation/minorcriticisms_pages.htm

primitivechristians.com/Bible-Files/index.htm

jehovah.to/xlation/fp.html

vindication.xanga.com/649437175/item/