My first indult TLM: What to bring, What to expect?

[Lux_et_veritas]

Kielbasi:

Praying the rosary is absolutely allowed during Latin mass.

You’re certainly entitled to your opinion as to whether or not its appropriate or not for yourself, but its licit and definitely not an abuse.

Have you ever asked a priest this that was saying a Latin Mass? The mass is a prayer, a high prayer to God and the Rosary is a prayer to the Blessed Mother. To do so is to have a prayer within a prayer, which from what I was taught in the convent is a big no-no.

When in mass, we should be devoted 200% to God, not the Blessed Mother. I would think even she would be disappointed that one could not find time outside of the Mass to pray the Rosary.

I attend a Latin Mass and don’t speak Latin. But years of going to Mass and I can assure you, if I pay attention, I KNOW what is being said in my heart. If one does not know, then they have a responsibility to take a book the ushers hand out and follow as best they can, or find an English Mass. At first it was easy to wander. Now I say that it is up to each individual to make sure their mass is as God-Centered as possible whether in Latin Mass or not.

 

[Kielbasi]

Have you ever asked a priest this that was saying a Latin Mass?

I didn’t , but one of my classmates did when the parish priest came to answer questions on the faith back in the 60s, and I heard the answer.

I don’t remember Fr. Bill’s exact response (it was a long long time ago, you know) but it was clearly positive to the practice. And of course back then, all we had was the TLM .

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Kielbasi:

I didn’t , but one of my classmates did when the parish priest came to answer questions on the faith back in the 60s, and I heard the answer.

I don’t remember Fr. Bill’s exact response (it was a long long time ago, you know) but it was clearly positive to the practice. And of course back then, all we had was the TLM .

Just for kicks, I would encourage you to ask again, but try two or three priests within such a parish. I’ve been told the opposite by my order at that time, and by several priests. In fact, it was the orthodox priest (Fr. Bill, also) who I recall saying this as well.

I’ll do the same when I see an opportunity. I can tell you this much, I’ve NEVER seen a nun praying a Rosary while in mass. They are fully attentive to the mass.

I’m sure the Blessed Mother would appreciate full attention on her Son for one hour.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

dumspirospero:

The Mass is the perfect prayer and I do not believe it is appropriate to pray the Rosary during Mass…that is just not right. The Rosary prior to Mass or afterwards is ok…but not during. Private prayer is not allowed during Mass.

Secondly, where do you get this “rad-trad” statement from…frankly, I am getting sicked and tired of intellectual discussions regarding tradition and the traditional mass always having those who feel the need to levy cheap shots against those of us that favor the traditional mass. It is not funny and it is not appropriate. First of all…I know some people you would consider “rad-trads” who dress in $2,000 Brooks Brother suits…cheap? I think not…secondly, I know people across the whole spectrum of Catholicism from the most orthodox to the most heterodox who has issues with Cardinal Mahoney…the man is a renegade and does not follow the directives from Rome.

QUIT TAKING CHEAP SHOTS!!! All you do is prove just how ignorant you are on the subject.

Praying the rosary was de rigueur for many at the Tridentine Mass prior to V2. In fact before V2, praying the rosary during the Mass was approved by the Church.

To be quite direct, I don’t recall too many “intellectual” discussions about the Tridentine Mass here, or in real life. Heck, people here don’t even refer to it by its real name.

I shop at Brooks. I don’t believe they even sell a $2,000 suit. If they do, it’s certainly not their main line. Brooks ain’t Brioni when it comes to $$.

Your comments about Cardinal Mahony (no, it’s not “Mahoney”) show a great deal of arrogance and ignorance on your part. The old saying “a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing” applies in this case.

 

[Pariah_Pirana]

Lux_et_veritas:

Have you ever asked a priest this that was saying a Latin Mass? The mass is a prayer, a high prayer to God and the Rosary is a prayer to the Blessed Mother. To do so is to have a prayer within a prayer, which from what I was taught in the convent is a big no-no.

When in mass, we should be devoted 200% to God, not the Blessed Mother. I would think even she would be disappointed that one could not find time outside of the Mass to pray the Rosary.

I attend a Latin Mass and don’t speak Latin. But years of going to Mass and I can assure you, if I pay attention, I KNOW what is being said in my heart. If one does not know, then they have a responsibility to take a book the ushers hand out and follow as best they can, or find an English Mass. At first it was easy to wander. Now I say that it is up to each individual to make sure their mass is as God-Centered as possible whether in Latin Mass or not.

The Mass is primarily a sacrifice…

 

[brotherhrolf]

Introibo ad altare Dei.

Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.

Ite missa est.

Deo gratias.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Pariah Pirana:

You may want to bring a rosary along to pray. With their backs turned, their propensity to mumble and use of Latin, many priests cannot be heard or understood.

You’ll also want to avoid the “rad-trads.” They’ll be the ones dressed in cheap suits carping about “Mahony.”

Thanks for adding nothing to this thread.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Pariah Pirana:

The Mass is primarily a sacrifice…

The Holy Mass is a prayer itself, even the highest prayer that exists. It is the Sacrifice dedicated by our Redeemer at the Cross, and repeated every day on the Altar. If you wish to hear the Mass as it should be heard, you must follow with eye, heart, and mouth all that happens at the Altar.

Further, you must pray with the priest the holy words said by him in the Name of Christ and which Christ says by him. You have to associate your heart with the holy feelings which are contained in these words and in this manner you ought to follow all that happens on the Altar. When acting in this way, you have prayed Holy Mass.

–Pope St. Pius X

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Some of you might find this interesting.

Specifically, this:

“Do not use abbreviated terms such as “Prots” or “radtrad” etc. that may be offensive to the group to which they refer. Full names are best.”

A word to the wise should be sufficient. :tiphat:

 

[dumspirospero]

Sure…sure…If you don’t to give God your undivided attention…that is your perogative…but read this first.

“Because the rosary is a repetitive, meditative prayer, if the time of day or the place allows for this type of reflection, then any time or place would be fine. Many Catholics wonder if it is appropriate to recite the rosary during Mass. The Mass is one time when the rosary should not be prayed because it is very important to be focused on everything that is happening during the Holy Sacrifice. Praying the rosary would only divide our attention. At the Mass, Jesus comes to us in His body, blood, soul and divinity. It is the highest form of prayer there is. Therefore, no other prayer is necessary or appropriate at this time.”
catholicexchange.com/vm/index.asp?vm_id=6&art_id=24405

There are more sources out there that say the same thing…but maybe you and Mahony feel you can change the rules…FYI, just because I mispelled his name does not mean that I am ignorant to his actions and the heterodoxy he promotes. Since when did the truth make you arrogant…oh well, I guess I am arrogant…I will not deviate from the truth or appease Mahony and his supporters. If you think I am arrogant or ignorant…that is fine…I laugh at that though as I am sure the others reading this do as well…I think people know who is being truthful here and who isn’t.

God Bless
Pariah Pirana:

Praying the rosary was de rigueur for many at the Tridentine Mass prior to V2. In fact before V2, praying the rosary during the Mass was approved by the Church.

To be quite direct, I don’t recall too many “intellectual” discussions about the Tridentine Mass here, or in real life. Heck, people here don’t even refer to it by its real name.

I shop at Brooks. I don’t believe they even sell a $2,000 suit. If they do, it’s certainly not their main line. Brooks ain’t Brioni when it comes to $$.

Your comments about Cardinal Mahony (no, it’s not “Mahoney”) show a great deal of arrogance and ignorance on your part. The old saying “a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing” applies in this case.

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Lux_et_Veritas:

Have you ever asked a priest this that was saying a Latin Mass? The mass is a prayer, a high prayer to God and the Rosary is a prayer to the Blessed Mother. To do so is to have a prayer within a prayer, which from what I was taught in the convent is a big no-no.

Although I agree with most of what you say, I think the core problem is not saying a prayer inside a prayer but saying a prayer in your mind while saying another one with your lips. If you pray the rosary during Mass, you are unable to say the prayers of the Mass with the same degree of conviction as you would if you were not saying the rosary. The Mass is itself a collection of prayers–of prayers within a prayer (the Mass). To say two minor prayers at the same time, each having a different end (as you note) tends to break down the devotion of at least one of the prayers; and so I understand and agree where you’re coming from. I just think that it is more an issue of focus and ends than it is of subsistence.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

Just because someone is fingering their beads does not mean they are “praying” the rosary. Sometimes I like to just hold my rosary, even if I’m not praying it. Although I don’t do this at Mass.

 

[Therese_Martin]

General reminder:

This thread is on the subject of attending a Tridentine Latin Mass and what a newcomer should expect. Comparisons between the TLM and the standard Roman rite of the Mass and disparaging comments about the TLM (a legitimate rubrical form of the Mass) do not belong in this thread. Please keep the subject on-topic or the thread will have to be closed. Thanks!

 

[Steve_Green]

You should expect no confusion or nonsence. After several TLM, you will invaribly say “Why in the world did we ever switch?”

 

[Adonis33]

rcn:

Why not just go in with no expectations and see what happens?

I agree with this. However - i would make sure to bring yoru missal and try to follow it as best you can. I have known individuals who have been turned off of the TLM due to not understanding it. I would try to explaing to them how to follow along the english translation - but i think they figured it was too inconveient.

At any rate - I hope you get to see a high mass.

 

[Madaglan]

Hey everyone!

I finally went to my first Tridentine Latin Mass last Sunday. Sorry it took so long, but I hope that you can comment on my reactions.

Well, first of all, I was surprised at the number of people who were there. About seventy plus older children and adults were there. There were maybe twenty small children there, too. It was held in a medium-sized chapel close to the cathedral.

It was a Low Mass, celebrated by a priest from the FSSP. I had a missal with me to follow the Mass.

To make things easier, I have decided to separate my reactions into two categories: positives and negatives, as I perceive them.

Positives:

1. The nature of the Eucharist is made evidently clear in the proceedings of Tridentine Mass. It is clearly the Sacrafice of Calvary, represented mystically but still the same Sacrafice. The priest is clearly in the person of Christ, and we and him offer ourselves up to God. Even the tabernacle is located right behind the altar, showing that Christ is eternally offering Himself to God the Father through His Sacrafice. The logistics are perfect in expressing all this.
2. Very reverent. The priest shows much humility and resignation in his gestures throughout the Mass. The priest is very careful in cleansing the Eucharistic vessels after communion, and in placing them in the tabernacle. Everyone in the congregation is well-dressed, and the women are attired in modest clothing.
3. Very Catholic language: Catholic theology is clearly respresented in the actual words of the Mass, even though they are in Latin.
4. Very meditative. For some reason, since the Tridentine Latin Mass seems to proceed more slowly than the Novus Ordo Mass, I feel that I can reflect on what is occuring and what each prayer and gesture means.
5. It’s all about God. With the back turned towards the congregation, the priest clearly is both Christ offering Himself to God the Almighty Father and an individual member of the Body of Christ. I understand that many Catholics did not like having the priest having His back towards them, but I think that this focuses attention to the Sacrificial act. While our Novus Ordo Mass still can be shown to express the concept of the priest as in the person of Christ offering Himself up, I feel that it is less evident than in the TLM
6. Cool garb. I really like the berreta (sp.), the priestly vestments and the altar boy’s white robes. I think they’re really cool looking.

Negatives:

1. Have trouble following Latin along–not because I can’t read the Latin (I have a dual translation missal) but because I can’t hear the priest! Last Sunday, I was only halfway back into the chapel, and all I heard was “low mumbling.” I do not say this pejoratively, but I can think of no better description. I can barely hear anything at this Mass.
2. Very little congregational interaction. Perhaps it’s just this particular group, but last Sunday there was almost little congregational response. All we said was someting to the effect of “And with your Spirit” and “Amen.” No Creed was said during the Mass, among other ommissions.
3. No music. No musical accompaniments. The only song last Sunday was a vocal one sung during the recession.
4. Worst of all, the moral theology as represented in the sermon. The FSSP priest who holds weekly Mass there is a nutcase. His sermon, last Sunday at least, had not bearing on what was mentioned in the Gospel reading, nor on what was read in the epistle reading. Basically he railed against those who dress immodestly, including the more reasonable examples, but even including those women who wear pants (or other “males’ clothing,” such as shorts), individuals who swim with members of the opposite sex, and young men and women who flirt (he didn’t define what he meant by flirting). He sounded like some imam or mullah ordering that all the women put on an extra burka layer, and that all the men make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. Very rigorist, in my opinion.

I just didn’t see why he was addressing a congregation which, I imagine, already has very high moral standards, even if they do wear pants with buttons, button down shirts, bow ties, etc. (why else would they be members if not traditional?)

Any comments are welcome.

 

[Scotty_PGH]

Hey everyone!

I finally went to my first Tridentine Latin Mass last Sunday. Sorry it took so long, but I hope that you can comment on my reactions.

First of all, I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it for the most part. It truly gets better each time you go, as you begin to truly understand and anticipate every step of the Mass. You and I share all the positives you mentioned, so let me address the negatives as best I can.

1. Have trouble following Latin along–not because I can’t read the Latin (I have a dual translation missal) but because I can’t hear the priest! Last Sunday, I was only halfway back into the chapel, and all I heard was “low mumbling.” I do not say this pejoratively, but I can think of no better description. I can barely hear anything at this Mass.

Remember you were at a LOW MASS (LM). LM tends to go much more quickly, with the priest speaking considerably more quietly than would be the case at a High Mass (HM). The general wisdom is that people should attend a HM for their first TLM, so they can soak in the full splendor of a TLM. HM offers much more singing, usually with a choir or group of chanters (though my congregation’s takes a break during the Summer months – this may be standard, I don’t know). Plus, the priest audibly chants many of the prayers, and we then respond in kind. LM has no singing. All of the parts are spoken by the priest and the altar boys. At LM, the altar boys respond to the priest on our behalf. At HM, we respond for ourselves. Also remember that the Priest is offering the Mass directly to God. Congregation participation is not a factor, especially at LM. While the Mass is being offered, we are expected to follow along in our Missals and pray the Mass along with the priest. As you attend more LMs, you’ll find it easier to follow along and know where the priest is.

1. Very little congregational interaction. Perhaps it’s just this particular group, but last Sunday there was almost little congregational response. All we said was someting to the effect of “And with your Spirit” and “Amen.” No Creed was said during the Mass, among other ommissions.

I’m certain the Credo was said, though you probably missed it. Like I said above, at LM, there is no congregation participation or responses.

1. No music. No musical accompaniments. The only song last Sunday was a vocal one sung during the recession.

I addressed this above. Actually, I’m surprised you even had that one song or a recession, for that matter, at LM.

1. Worst of all, the moral theology as represented in the sermon. The FSSP priest who holds weekly Mass there is a nutcase. His sermon, last Sunday at least, had not bearing on what was mentioned in the Gospel reading, nor on what was read in the epistle reading. Basically he railed against those who dress immodestly, including the more reasonable examples, but even including those women who wear pants (or other “males’ clothing,” such as shorts), individuals who swim with members of the opposite sex, and young men and women who flirt (he didn’t define what he meant by flirting). He sounded like some imam or mullah ordering that all the women put on an extra burka layer, and that all the men make themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. Very rigorist, in my opinion.

I just didn’t see why he was addressing a congregation which, I imagine, already has very high moral standards, even if they do wear pants with buttons, button down shirts, bow ties, etc. (why else would they be members if not traditional?)

I can’t really comment on this, having not heard his sermon. However, I think most people at TLMs find these kind of sermons refreshing. These are tough messages that people today need to hear. Yes, it may seem like preaching to the choir, but if that priest’s words keep one young person from slipping into an immodest act, he may have saved a soul. Plus, if a young person leaves Mass and mentions that priest’s words to another friend who needs desperately to hear that kind of message, is it not a good thing? Speaking for myself, I’ll take one of these any day over the mealy-mouth, say-little sermons I’ve heard elsewhere.

Anyway - I look forward to hearing more from you as you attend more TLMs. Hopefully you will be able to attend a HM soon. God bless!

 

[Madaglan]

Originally Quoted by Scotty PGH:

I can’t really comment on this, having not heard his sermon. However, I think most people at TLMs find these kind of sermons refreshing. These are tough messages that people today need to hear. Yes, it may seem like preaching to the choir, but if that priest’s words keep one young person from slipping into an immodest act, he may have saved a soul. Plus, if a young person leaves Mass and mentions that priest’s words to another friend who needs desperately to hear that kind of message, is it not a good thing? Speaking for myself, I’ll take one of these any day over the mealy-mouth, say-little sermons I’ve heard elsewhere.

Anyway - I look forward to hearing more from you as you attend more TLMs. Hopefully you will be able to attend a HM soon. God bless!

I indeed agree with you that much of what the priest said should be heard by the young people today, and which is unfortunately not always emphasized in less traditional Catholic settings. However, I was mostly put off by the priest’s method of delivery. His tone was loud and scathing and he didn’t really approach the matter from a pastoral perspective, in my opinion. I suppose his sermon was also carping to a degree. He was frank, and perhaps there was some merit to what he was saying, but his delivery was crude, rude and simply seemed a bit too enraged.

The priest was shaking throughout the sermon, so maybe he has some kind of nervous problem.

Despite the fact that I thought him a bit too reactionary and off-track on a few of the particulars in his sermon, I believe that the essence of what he was trying to say holds true–namely, that people should dress modestly.

 

[tcraig]

Madaglan:

I indeed agree with you that much of what the priest said should be heard by the young people today, and which is unfortunately not always emphasized in less traditional Catholic settings. However, I was mostly put off by the priest’s method of delivery. His tone was loud and scathing and he didn’t really approach the matter from a pastoral perspective, in my opinion. I suppose his sermon was also carping to a degree. He was frank, and perhaps there was some merit to what he was saying, but his delivery was crude, rude and simply seemed a bit too enraged.

FSSP priests are like other priests in that some are more pastoral, or more appealing, than others. However, they are not afraid to preach the “hard truth” to their parishioners, which is something sorely needed in this day and age. My FSSP parish is the only church I’ve attended where I’ve heard preaching on modesty, birth control, confession and penance, the Catholic Church being the one true church, etc. I know that there are NO parishes where this preaching does occur, but I’ve never attended one and heard it.

I attend a TLM parish, with FSSP priests. We’ve had several priests since I started going there three years ago, including a few visiting priests who would help “fill-in” while our pastor was on vacation. Some I’ve liked better than others, but all delivered a beautiful, reverent mass. One nice thing is that even though the sermon delivery varied, the mass was still the same. No changes, no worries about whether the new priest would be liberal or not.

 

[palmas85]

Priests are just like everyone else, some good some bad.

You have to understand that the Priest in a Traditional Mass has a quite different position than a Priest in N.O. Mass. In the Traditional Mass the Priest is not merely “presiding” at the supper. Through the power of God, and the Sacrament of Holy Orders, the Priest represents Jesus Christ himself offering our unbloody sacrifice to God in atonement for the sins of the world. The Priest in giving the Homily will often address some aspect of behavior that he finds to be against the laws of God. They usually try to tie iit in to the reading, although not always. Since most people today don’t seem to believe in sin or that they can sin, these messages can often seem petty, tyrannical and downright judgemental. I have actually had my feelings hurt because the Priest happened to hit upon something that I had done and felt guilty for. It felt as if I was being put on public display. Terrible feeling. But I survived, and grew spiritually as a result.

I can certainly understand why someone who has been led to believe that the Mass is all about good feelings and self edification would not be real comfortable with a Priest pointing out human frailities, weaknesses and sin. But understand this please, the Mass helps to prepare your soul for eternity. Even though or maybe because we live in an age where our own self worth and opinion of ourselves matters more than God, we often reject any criticisms of ourselves. We are what matters, our self fulfillment, our dreams our goals nothing else. We are what is important.

As a schoolboy I remember reading a small pamphlet that the Sisters gave out. It had been written by a Nun in some contemplative order, although I cannot remember which one. I do remember the joy and happiness that seemed to fill every page. And I especially remember the last words and I think they mean as much now as they did then and kind of put the whole thing in perspective.

GOD IS WHAT REALLY MATTERS. NOTHING ELSE IS AS IMPORTANT OR NECESSARY, LEAST OF ALL ME.

I’m glad that you found the Traditional Mass to be somewhat positive, and hope that your relationship with God will grow as a result.

COR JESU SACRATISSIMUM MISERERE NOBIS