My first missionary meeting

[donbjc]

RCC defender, I know your post was not for me, but I am following this discussion and the scripture you are speaking of is the Epistle of James first chapter, fifth verse, “If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally , and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him”.
That is the first thing the missionaries say when they give you the Book of Mormon and ask you to read it, and pray about the truth of it.

To Brad,
The point is that it is either true, or it isn’t, Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he wasn’t. If you believe it is not true after studying it and praying about it simply tell them you do not believe it is true.
If you do not even follow what they ask you to do, then you will never know for sure. It takes study and sincere prayer, and is not something that comes easily.
My wife is LDS and I have taken the lessons and gone to church for 7 years now, I have to admit to not knowing if it is true or not. They have so many good qualities and have been so helpful and concerned for me in my physical disabilities. One thing I do know is that they are definitely Christian through and through. If I were not Catholic through and through, I would give Mormonism a shot, at my age 71, I am a very difficult nut to crack. As far as I am concerned it is either the Catholic church or the Mormon church and none other has any claim to truth.
The reference RCC made to the degrees of heaven did not strike me as anything like a Ouiji board, just a different understanding of heaven. Personally, I like their understanding better, it would be comforting to believe it is like that and that we would all be together as a family unit in the hereafter, but I still don’t know for sure. My wife has been doing my genealogy and the more I find out about my family the more I wish to see them and know them, at my age and with my health problems, I am getting very close to joining them and I look forward to it. I want it to be like the Mormons say it is. I want to be with my wife for eternity and my children and family. That is the one thing they have that we don’t and if it is true then that is the question to find the answer to. How do you find out without dying?
I love the Catholic pomp and circumstance, and traditions, but I love the simplicity of the LDS church and the real people that interact and live the gospel, serving and taking care of each other, in a real Christian way. I wish the Catholics were more concerned about service and showing love to each other, and not so concerned with the next bingo game or rummage sale as we had this past Sunday after Mass. It just reminds me of the trading in the temple and breaking of the Sabbath day that the Lord abhors. Just my thoughts, and I do not mean to question these things, I am sure there was a good reason, but it does cause thoughts about the propriety on Sunday.
So, here I am expounding on my feelings and that is all it is, not important. But, I do have them and they are confusing as I continue in my straight and narrow path as a Catholic in mass every Sunday, but still observing and comparing.
Don

 

[RCCDefender]

Hi Don!
Actually, I was refering to the passages from the BoM that they ask you to read, but thanks for your reply anyway.

I know the the whole celestial heaven thing has nothing to do with Ouija boards, that was just a personal thing with me considering the experience I had had. I know the Ouija board has nothing to do with the Mormon interpretation of heaven. I am sorry if I was not clear on that point.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

There is nothing wrong with a Catholic who starts the conversation. It is a brave thing to do and many famous Saints have done it througout the ages, especially since the “reformation”. It is a worthy call to catch up with people who you know are in error and do what you can to talk some sense into them. St James says at the end of his Letter:
My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.
This is a very real situation, the LDS are in grave error and their souls are in jeopardy. People who are informed and prepared to talk like BH have a duty to at least get a word or two in.

 

[amgid]

donbjc:

I just read the thread on Anti-Catholic websites and found this thread interesting in relation to that thread, which I answered. I would say the same here, if you are listening to LDS missionaries with the thought of converting them to Catholicism, or just antagonizing and trying to embarrass them, why are you having them come into your home. Just say no, I have my own religion and I am happy with it Thank You!
Don’t even waste their time unless you are truely interested in studying Mormonism with an open mind and no pre-conceived notions that come from the same hatred for them that the Anti-Catholics spout about us. How can you say they do not really feel the spirit when they read the Book of Mormon, and ask them if they feel the spirit when they read the Phone Book? That is just plain hateful and a great put-down and mockery of their faith in God.
Is this Christianity? Isn’t there a commandment “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”?
It is a good thing to have a cordial debate on the issues of each religion, in a forum where everyone comes to debate, but to outright plan an attack on young boys who are out to sincerely spread God’s word, in my opinion is not very Christian.
If you want to listen to them then listen, if not then politely say no, do not attack them and their beliefs.
Don

Thank you for your honesty and sincerity. The question you want to ask is, Why would they want to do that anyway? Under normal circumstances, why would anybody want to behave that way? It is, after all, a very odd kind of behavior. I believe there is a more fundamental reason underlying it. I think that the real reason is that these people are as much afraid of the truth of it, as they are uncertain of their own! And they don’t have the moral courage to do the right thing either, so they try to justify their own actions to themselves by resorting to this kind of strange and cowardice behavior.

Let me assure you, however, that these people are not hurting us in any way by doing theses kind of things. They only hurt themselves. Our missionaries are instructed not to mess around with people who are not genuinely interested in their message. Their time is too valuable for that. When they detect that someone is not genuinely interested, they withdraw, and take their message elsewhere. If these people don’t want to be “polite” to us, let me assure you that we will be very “polite” to them, and “politely withdraw” from them, and take our message to those who genuinely want to hear.

As for those who like to mock, you know that there have been mockers of sacred thing from the beginning. Even Jesus was mocked! If He was mocked by the wicked and the ungodly, why should we hope to escape? Let them mock! In modern LDS scripture the Lord has told us what their fait shall be:

D&C 45:

49 And the Lord shall utter his voice, and all the ends of the earth shall hear it; and the nations of the earth shall mourn, and they that have laughed shall see their folly.

50 And calamity shall cover the mocker, and the scorner shall be consumed; and they that have watched for iniquity shall be hewn down and cast into the fire.
I wouldn’t like to be them.

amgid

 

[blueadept]

donbjc:

My wife is LDS and I have taken the lessons and gone to church for 7 years now, I have to admit to not knowing if it is true or not. They have so many good qualities and have been so helpful and concerned for me in my physical disabilities. One thing I do know is that they are definitely Christian through and through. If I were not Catholic through and through, I would give Mormonism a shot, at my age 71, I am a very difficult nut to crack. As far as I am concerned it is either the Catholic church or the Mormon church and none other has any claim to truth.
The reference RCC made to the degrees of heaven did not strike me as anything like a Ouiji board, just a different understanding of heaven. Personally, I like their understanding better, it would be comforting to believe it is like that and that we would all be together as a family unit in the hereafter, but I still don’t know for sure. My wife has been doing my genealogy and the more I find out about my family the more I wish to see them and know them, at my age and with my health problems, I am getting very close to joining them and I look forward to it. I want it to be like the Mormons say it is. I want to be with my wife for eternity and my children and family. That is the one thing they have that we don’t and if it is true then that is the question to find the answer to. How do you find out without dying?
I love the Catholic pomp and circumstance, and traditions, but I love the simplicity of the LDS church and the real people that interact and live the gospel, serving and taking care of each other, in a real Christian way. I wish the Catholics were more concerned about service and showing love to each other, and not so concerned with the next bingo game or rummage sale as we had this past Sunday after Mass. It just reminds me of the trading in the temple and breaking of the Sabbath day that the Lord abhors. Just my thoughts, and I do not mean to question these things, I am sure there was a good reason, but it does cause thoughts about the propriety on Sunday.
So, here I am expounding on my feelings and that is all it is, not important. But, I do have them and they are confusing as I continue in my straight and narrow path as a Catholic in mass every Sunday, but still observing and comparing.
Don

You sound like the husband of a poster that posted a lot last year BJ Colbert. I too am married to an LDS person who challenged me to truly understand my Catholic faith. Thanks to her I have discovered the richness of Catholicism.

I understand your concerns of the way it appears Catholics keep the Sabbath with things like rummage sales and bingo. There are lots of Catholics who do a reasonable job of keeping the Sabbath. I’m a lot younger than you and it’s easy to find good ways to help others and give my time to community service throughout my daily life. With the way the LDS church is set up with the wards and their home teaching, visiting teaching, and FHE, I can appreciate why you would like the LDS setup for social support. The Catholic Church has it, it’s just more difficult to find. You have to actively look for it and for someone at your age, that would be very difficult.

I can appreciate your viewpoint of liking the LDS the idea of eternal marriages as well. It took me a while to appreciate what it meant when it says “What God has joined together…let no man tear apart,” and that the “…til death do us part” really only applies to the living spouse since I don’t believe God wants us to be alone on Earth in my opinion. So as far as I’m concerned, I will know my wife and loved ones in the next life provided I make it to heaven. But I can appreciate you liking the LDS notion that marriages can be eternal even if it isn’t biblical (my Catholic perspective).

If you believe that Joseph Smith or the BoM is true, believing the LDS has the truth isn’t too difficult. When I look at the evidence, I see no reason why I would pray about the LDS faith. I agree with you that I believe my LDS wife is a Christian as you believe about your wife, but the more I study both faiths, the more I’m content with my Catholic faith.

As far as what keeps me in my Catholic faith, I would have to say it is believing in Jesus presence in the Eucharist. All the other issues about the Catholic Church is trivial next to this.

The bottom line though is that I’m thankful for my LDS wife in challenging me. I’m just thankful we show great respect for each other’s faiths.

Don, good luck in your observing and comparing the two faiths

 

[Catholic_Dude]

amgid:

Thank you for your honesty and sincerity. The question you want to ask is, Why would they want to do that anyway? Under normal circumstances, why would anybody want to behave that way? It is, after all, a very odd kind of behavior. I believe there is a more fundamental reason underlying it. I think that the real reason is that these people are as much afraid of the truth of it, as they are uncertain of their own! And they don’t have the moral courage to do the right thing either, so they try to justify their own actions to themselves by resorting to this kind of strange and cowardice behavior.

I dont see where the the idea of coward come out of this. A person should have no problem defending thier views no matter who asks.

Let me assure you, however, that these people are not hurting us in any way by doing theses kind of things. They only hurt themselves. Our missionaries are instructed not to mess around with people who are not genuinely interested in their message. Their time is too valuable for that. When they detect that someone is not genuinely interested, they withdraw, and take their message elsewhere. If these people don’t want to be “polite” to us, let me assure you that we will be very “polite” to them, and “politely withdraw” from them, and take our message to those who genuinely want to hear.

I hear what your saying, but there is also a point where “genuninely interested” requires that questions be answerd, else its deception. You cant go up to someone and tell them their church went into apostacy and not be ready to back that up. This proof includes using sources that both camps agree on, thats the correct way to convince people. For example it is reported to me that there is “evidence in the New Testament that Linus apostatized” thats a pretty big claim and yet one that should be easily proven, just show the NT passage.
Its not enough to say “your church apostacized, come follow me”.

If Im ever asked in person to become lds because it is the true church because my church went into apostacy I will be asking for proof. Im always genuinely interested when it concerns my faith.

As for those who like to mock, you know that there have been mockers of sacred thing from the beginning. Even Jesus was mocked! If He was mocked by the wicked and the ungodly, why should we hope to escape? Let them mock! In modern LDS scripture the Lord has told us what their fait shall be:

This isnt about mocking, mocking is based on unfounded subjective claims intended to discredit or smear. It is usually the last resort of people who dont have a valid case for not accepting something.

Also I believe that missionary work should be a two way street, open to hearing the objections of other side and doing the best to find answers, eg people shoudnt offer someone literature if the missionary is not willing to genuinely accept literature in return.

 

[Brad_Haas]

RCCDefender - thanks for your comments. They just wanted me to read the Book of Mormon every day, even if I open it up to a random page and read only one column of text. I asked if there were any chapters that they’d recommend, and so they gave me 1 Nephi 13-14, 2 Nephi 28-29 and 31-33, and Mormon 8. After the first meeting, they had asked me to read 3 Nephi 11, Alma 32 and 34, and of course, Moroni 10.

donbjc:

To Brad,
The point is that it is either true, or it isn’t, Joseph Smith was a prophet, or he wasn’t. If you believe it is not true after studying it and praying about it simply tell them you do not believe it is true.
If you do not even follow what they ask you to do, then you will never know for sure. It takes study and sincere prayer, and is not something that comes easily.

Don,
They know that I don’t believe it. They’re trying to convince me that I should believe it, because they (like me) are trying to live out Christ’s apostolic mandate. Also, they’re trying because they care about me, or at least they say they do, and I’m not going to presume to doubt them.

I will do anything they want as long as it’s not a sin. I believe the way they want me to pray would be unnecessary and a sinful act of doubt on my part. Besides, it’s not always necessary to follow someone’s claims in order to know whether they speak the truth.

Personally, I like their understanding better, it would be comforting to believe it is like that and that we would all be together as a family unit in the hereafter, but I still don’t know for sure. My wife has been doing my genealogy and the more I find out about my family the more I wish to see them and know them, at my age and with my health problems, I am getting very close to joining them and I look forward to it. I want it to be like the Mormons say it is. I want to be with my wife for eternity and my children and family. That is the one thing they have that we don’t and if it is true then that is the question to find the answer to. How do you find out without dying?

Actually, we Catholics do believe that we will exist as a family unit in the hereafter. In fact, our family will include not only those to whom we’re related by marriage or blood in this life, but to everyone who’s a child of God! Our unity with each and every single person in Heaven will be closer than the best of bonds between husband and wife in the best of marriages in this world. Further, there will be no division among those whom Christ has redeemed. Someone who was not as virtuous as another will not be eternally separated from them. There will be no enormous group of people eternally separated from the company of the Father because they were not sealed in a celestial marriage. At first glance, and because of the way they sometimes caricature the Catholic vision of Heaven, the LDS version sounds better, but I do not envy it.

I love the Catholic pomp and circumstance, and traditions, but I love the simplicity of the LDS church and the real people that interact and live the gospel, serving and taking care of each other, in a real Christian way. I wish the Catholics were more concerned about service and showing love to each other, and not so concerned with the next bingo game or rummage sale as we had this past Sunday after Mass.

Your concerns are valid, and I hope you’ve done everything in your power to redirect the energies of the Catholic community. Many of the laity of our Church have grown lax in the generation of my parents, but many are returning to their mission as anointed Christians, and many in my generation are rising to it. Remember, it is as unfair to judge a religion by any but the best of its members as it is to judge a medicine by those who throw it away. If you want to see simple faith and charity exercised by Catholics, just go to the nearest convent or monastery. Look at the life of Saint Teresa of Calcutta. Look at missionaries who devote their entire lives to spreading the Gospel. I do not mean to suggest that the LDS church lacks in charity - not at all - but neither is the Catholic Church as dim as you hint.

 

[mormon_fool]

Brad,

I missed your initial post about meeting the missionaries a couple of weeks ago. What I wouldn’t give to tag along with the sister missionaries in your discussions . But you’re in Nebraska and I am in Utah. I admire your willingness to participate and attend LDS church and hear them out. There are things to learn about Mormonism that can’t be had from apologists, since apologists appeal to reason and evidences; while missionaries focus on helping a person gain a spiritual witness which is subjective and non-transferable.

I may comment on some of your observations in the future. The common LDS understanding of the apostasy is terrible! You can quote me on that, if you need too.

–fool

 

[mormon_fool]

Brad,

I am back from participating in “family home evening”, but since I go to a college single’s ward, it was sans family. Now I have a little time to make some observations.

I enjoyed the exchange about when it is appropriate to pray whether something is true, what kind of answer one should expect to such a prayer, and what kind of weight should be given to such an answer. Many other questions can be raised, but let’s start with these.

I think you are that you shouldn’t pray about something that violates your conscience. There are just not enough hours in a day to test every truth claim through prayer. I can accept someone’s existence without having it confirmed through supernatural means. Likewise, my cumulative experience allows me to trust the phone book as a mostly reliable guide for contacting people. I don’t think someone should pray about something that is clearly wrong as if to tempt God or engage in sign seeking. I understand that most non-mormons put the LDS church in this category.

While I don’t encourage praying about things that are easily verified through ordinary methods, I think we should bring weighty matters before the Lord and patiently wait for His answer in whatever form it might come. Choosing a religous affiliation and maintaining it is one of the weightiest matters there is. I highly respect Catholics who pray and receive spiritual confirmation that their choice is pleasing to God. A well answered prayer is icing on the cake for the impressive intellectual traditions of Catholicism. I hope we can all take a cue from Oliver Twist and want “more” from our religion and not be satisfied with human reasoning alone to back our choices. Praying for a witness can set the bar very high to compare competing truth claims to. One should not change affiliation unless both the head and the heart can fully embrace the new one. Both spiritual experiences and the intellect should be considered, because sometimes believing is see.

I think many people are justified for not scrutinizing other faith’s teaching and truth claims. There is always a risk/reward analysis on whether the time spent understanding others will pay off. We should use wisdom about how much time we can spend on a problem before moving on to something else. Everybody’s situation is different. Your situation, as I understand it, is one where you have done a tremendous amount of homework and have come to a firm conclusion that the Book of Mormon is not true. My advice would be to pray for a confirmation of that conclusion, surely there is a lot riding on you being right. Try comparing the response you get to that prayer to less risky prayers that your conscience allows you to offer.

Answers to prayers about truth can come in many different ways. This apologist does not strictly differentiate between “feelings” and a “spiritual witness”. If one doesn’t have an emotional response to receiving a witness it would be odd. A lack of an emotional response might very well be the sign of the lack of recognition that a prayer is being answered. Likewise it would be odd that a spiritual witness would be devoid of intellectual content. A third component of a spiritual experience defies description, for one is experiencing the presence of the divine, sometimes strongly, sometimes faintly. It is easier to explain the fruits of the experience than the experience itself. I think a person loses the desire to sin, has a love of God and man in his heart, and has an inner peace and conviction at least for a few hours before the experience wears off. I do think a spiritual witness is testable, but some of the tests should be done after a spiritual witness happens.

–fool

 

[LittleDeb]

mormon fool:

I enjoyed the exchange about when it is appropriate to pray whether something is true, what kind of answer one should expect to such a prayer, and what kind of weight should be given to such an answer. Many other questions can be raised, but let’s start with these.

I think you are that you shouldn’t pray about something that violates your conscience. There are just not enough hours in a day to test every truth claim through prayer. I can accept someone’s existence without having it confirmed through supernatural means. Likewise, my cumulative experience allows me to trust the phone book as a mostly reliable guide for contacting people. I don’t think someone should pray about something that is clearly wrong as if to tempt God or engage in sign seeking. I understand that most non-mormons put the LDS church in this category.

Very well put! One of the best responses I have heard. Thank you for giving the concerns of non-LDS proper weight and perspective.

Overall, a great response!

 

[Brad_Haas]

Fool,

Thank you, your post was indeed wonderful. I say again, wonderful.

Now, what if I feel that I’ve received answers of all types already, even without praying and asking for them? Both my mind and my heart have been given all I could ask for, and more: knowledge, moral assurance of the truth of my beliefs, real and definite benefits in my day-to-day life… You seem to understand my position very well (again, thank you), so I wonder what else you would advise me to do.

 

[blueadept]

Fool,

Thank you for your great reply. Sometimes last year when I was investigating my wife’s LDS faith and thought that I had done about everything that I could reasonably do, I asked her what else I could do. She questioned my way of properly praying about it all but agreed that I was earnestly investigating her faith. I appreciate your response to Brad and I will keep track of this thread.

In order to appreciate the LDS viewpoint from a positive aspect, I’ve been hanging out at the forums at fairlds.org. I may not totally buy the LDS perspective, but I’ve come to appreciate that LDS are not totally out in left field either. It has helped me to understand my wife’s LDS faith vs. the many anti-LDS sites that are out there.
Thank you mormon fool for your time in coming to this site.

 

[amgid]

Catholic Dude:

I hear what your saying, but there is also a point where “genuninely interested” requires that questions be answerd, else its deception.

I quite agree. We do try to answer questions. I am always ready to answer other peoples’ questions. But it is often possible to tell if someone is genuinely asking questions, or whether they are just wasting your time.

You cant go up to someone and tell them their church went into apostacy and not be ready to back that up. This proof includes using sources that both camps agree on, thats the correct way to convince people. . . .

I entirely agree with that. I believe there are adequate signs and indications that an apostasy occurred in the early Christian Church; and I have already discussed them on this board before. That does not mean that the Catholic Church became wicked, or that Christians ceased to be true Christians. It means that the divine authority which was present in the primitive church was lost, and the church was no longer led by direct revelation from heaven as it was through the Apostles anciently. It means that as a result of this loss of divine authority, errors in doctrine practice began to creep into the church unchecked, which undermined its doctrinal purity and integrity. It means that as a result of the loss of that divine authority, valid ordinances (you call them sacraments) could also not be performed in the church. That is why the LDS Church does not recognize baptisms of other churches; and that is why we even perform vicarious baptisms on behalf of the deceased.

Its not enough to say “your church apostacized, come follow me”.

I hope that we don’t do that. I am sure that we don’t. Our message is one of hope, not of despair! If our message was just one of apostasy, it would be a very negative one. Our message is the message of the Restoration! We claim that the true Church has been restored, by divine authority and revelation! We invite you to examine it impartially and sincerely; and the promise is that if you do, you will come to know for yourself that it is true.

If Im ever asked in person to become lds because it is the true church because my church went into apostacy I will be asking for proof.

So you should. See above.

Im always genuinely interested when it concerns my faith.

I am glad to hear it. I hope you will continue. That is the right way.

. . . mocking is based on unfounded subjective claims intended to discredit or smear. It is usually the last resort of people who dont have a valid case for not accepting something.

Very well put. I entirely agree.

Also I believe that missionary work should be a two way street, open to hearing the objections of other side and doing the best to find answers, . . .

Yes, I agree. I hope that our missionaries do that.

. . . eg people shoudnt offer someone literature if the missionary is not willing to genuinely accept literature in return.

That depends on the circumstances. As a general rule, I would say that is right. That is how I try to act towards others when I discuss my religion with them. But remember that our missionaries are in a different situation. They are not there to debate and argue, or hear “alternative points of view,” or even be “converted”. They have been specifically commissioned by the Church (at the commandment of the Lord) to go out into the world and spread the message (the good news) of the restored gospel, to as many as are willing to hear. If somebody does not want to hear, or just wants to debate and argue, then it is not their mandate to hang around and debate with them. They move on to the next person to spread the gospel message to. When they come out their missions, than they are free to debate and argue with people as much as they like, like I do here! But they have a very specific and narrow mandate, and that is to spread the message of the restored gospel, as commanded by the Lord:

D&C 63:

57 And again, verily I say unto you, those who desire in their hearts, in meekness, to warn sinners to repentance, let them be ordained unto this power.

58 For this is a day of warning, and not a day of many words. For I, the Lord, am not to be mocked in the last days.

59 Behold, I am from above, and my power lieth beneath. I am over all, and in all, and through all, and search all things, and the day cometh that all things shall be subject unto me.

60 Behold, I am Alpha and Omega, even Jesus Christ.
amgid

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

Now, what if I feel that I’ve received answers of all types already, even without praying and asking for them? Both my mind and my heart have been given all I could ask for, and more: knowledge, moral assurance of the truth of my beliefs, real and definite benefits in my day-to-day life… You seem to understand my position very well (again, thank you), so I wonder what else you would advise me to do.

I see a contradiction between what you are saying here and what you said in post #19. There you said:

I’m going to sacrament meetings, talking to missionaries, holding dialogue with LDS apologists, and so on, because I want to give the religion every possible chance to show me why it’s true. If it is the truth, I’ll believe in it.

That implies that you have not come to the conclusion that it is false, and therefore you are willing to give it a chance to prove to you that it is true.

But here you are saying what is diametrically the opposite. You are saying that you have received convincing divine assurances that Catholicism is true and Mormonism is false. So which one is it? If you are so convinced that Mormonism is false, why are you “going to sacrament meetings, talking to missionaries, holding dialogue with LDS apologists, and so on,” as you say, in order to “give the religion every possible chance to show me why it’s true”? That does not make a lot of sense.

amgid

 

[Brad_Haas]

That I’ve received those things already doesn’t mean I couldn’t receive more or better knowledge, experience, etc. from the LDS church. But if I don’t receive more or better of any of them, it wouldn’t be right to change…

 

[majick275]

amgid:

I entirely agree with that. I believe there are adequate signs and indications that an apostasy occurred in the early Christian Church; and I have already discussed them on this board before. That does not mean that the Catholic Church became wicked, or that Christians ceased to be true Christians. It means that the divine authority which was present in the primitive church was lost, and the church was no longer led by direct revelation from heaven as it was through the Apostles anciently. It means that as a result of this loss of divine authority, errors in doctrine practice began to creep into the church unchecked, which undermined its doctrinal purity and integrity. It means that as a result of the loss of that divine authority, valid ordinances (you call them sacraments) could also not be performed in the church. That is why the LDS Church does not recognize baptisms of other churches; and that is why we even perform vicarious baptisms on behalf of the deceased.

I have to disagree. While we have certainly covered this in other threads, I (and many others) believe very strongly that there has never been a complete, universal apostasy. Jesus came at the perfect time and set up his church perfectly. Just as the Bible tell us in Hebrews there is no longer a need for human prophets to lead his church or any further need for Temple ordinances. Christ leads the church and provided all necessary revelation. As to errors in doctrine and practice, we can see how the LDS church has not only strayed from Christian doctrine and practices but from its own. We have seen so many examples of LDS leaders denouncing the teachings and practices of previous “prophets” as well as LDS scriptures undergoing changes that affect core doctrines. God is a God of the living, there is no need to perform sacraments for the dead. The divine authority that Christ gave his apostles was passed down in a direct traceable line to the current bishops in the Catholic church.

amgid:

I hope that we don’t do that. I am sure that we don’t. Our message is one of hope, not of despair! If our message was just one of apostasy, it would be a very negative one. Our message is the message of the Restoration! We claim that the true Church has been restored, by divine authority and revelation! We invite you to examine it impartially and sincerely; and the promise is that if you do, you will come to know for yourself that it is true.

You have hammered at this here in these very forums over and over again. The “first vision” is ( I believe) still taught in the first missionary discussion. Joseph Smith Jr. is said in this to have been told by God that he should join none of the churches then on the earth as all of their creeds were an abomination in his sight. Mnay of us have examined it sincerely and in great detail and found it to be false.

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

That I’ve received those things already doesn’t mean I couldn’t receive more or better knowledge, experience, etc. from the LDS church. But if I don’t receive more or better of any of them, it wouldn’t be right to change…

How do you expect to receive “more or better” from them, if you are not even willing to pray as they ask you to? What is wrong with praying? To my way of thinking, there is something fundamentally wrong with that approach. It seems to me that you both want to know the truth, and you don’t!

You have already received from them the best, indeed all that they can offer. There isn’t anything more that they can give you. This is not their church. It is the Lord’s Church. He does the convincing, not us. If you don’t want to approach Him, you will never know. Nobody ever obtained a witness of the truth of this thing in any other way.

amgid

 

[Catholic_Dude]

amgid:

How do you expect to receive “more or better” from them, if you are not even willing to pray as they ask you to? What is wrong with praying? To my way of thinking, there is something fundamentally wrong with that approach. It seems to me that you both want to know the truth, and you don’t!

You have already received from them the best, indeed all that they can offer. There isn’t anything more that they can give you. This is not their church. It is the Lord’s Church. He does the convincing, not us. If you don’t want to approach Him, you will never know. Nobody ever obtained a witness of the truth of this thing in any other way.

amgid

Here is the main problem with praying as far as I can see: what about those who do pray and the “answer” comes back in the negative? What then?

If someone honestly prays and it the response tells them the lds is incorrect then who do you believe?

 

[amgid]

majick275:

I have to disagree. . . .

You would! No surprise in that!

You have hammered at this here in these very forums over and over again. The “first vision” is ( I believe) still taught in the first missionary discussion. Joseph Smith Jr. is said in this to have been told by God that he should join none of the churches then on the earth as all of their creeds were an abomination in his sight. Mnay of us have examined it sincerely and in great detail and found it to be false.

For everyone who examines Mormonism and finds it to be false (or at least, claims to have examined it, and found false), there are a thousand who examine it, and find it true! The reason why the majority of those contacted by our missionaries don’t join it is not because they examine it, and find it to be false. The reason is that they don’t examine it at all! They are just not interested.

The ratio roughly goes something like this: for every one person who sincerely examines Mormonism and finds it to be true, and joins our Church; there are a thousand who do not examine it at all! They aren’t interested. Then, for every one person who says (or claims) to have examined it and found it to be false, there are a thousand who examine it and find it to be true. So who cares that you are among the tiny minority who say they have examined it and found it to be false? If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the verdict of the vast majority who have examined it, and found it true!

amgid

 

[Brad_Haas]

amgid:

How do you expect to receive “more or better” from them, if you are not even willing to pray as they ask you to? What is wrong with praying? To my way of thinking, there is something fundamentally wrong with that approach. It seems to me that you both want to know the truth, and you don’t!

I hope this will demonstrate the mistake in your logic: How do you know the Catholic Church is true without renouncing all other affiliations, professing the Catholic Faith, being baptized, and receiving the Sacraments? You won’t even give the Catholic Church a chance! You’ll never know whether it’s true! You can’t!

amgid:

The reason why the majority of those contacted by our missionaries don’t join it is not because they examine it, and find it to be false. The reason is that they don’t examine it at all! They are just not interested.

Not as man sees does Amgid see, for Amgid looks on the heart.

amgid:

So who cares that you are among the tiny minority who say they have examined it and found it to be false? If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the verdict of the vast majority who have examined it, and found it true!

Since the people who truly examine it must find it true, those who don’t find it true did not examine it. “Who cares,” you ask? Apparently not you; you’re happy to criticize non-members’ beliefs and intentions, leave them where they are, and toss out scriptures in which Jesus says they’ll be damned. Amgid, this is why I don’t generally interact with you.