My first missionary meeting

[Catholic_Dude]

amgid:

You would! No surprise in that!

For everyone who examines Mormonism and finds it to be false (or at least, claims to have examined it, and found false), there are a thousand who examine it, and find it true! The reason why the majority of those contacted by our missionaries don’t join it is not because they examine it, and find it to be false. The reason is that they don’t examine it at all! They are just not interested.

The ratio roughly goes something like this: for every one person who sincerely examines Mormonism and finds it to be true, and joins our Church; there are a thousand who do not examine it at all! They aren’t interested. Then, for every one person who says (or claims) to have examined it and found it to be false, there are a thousand who examine it and find it to be true. So who cares that you are among the tiny minority who say they have examined it and found it to be false? If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the verdict of the vast majority who have examined it, and found it true!

amgid

Yes, but werent you the one who argued against the numbers in the past? I could just as easily say the CC has over 1B members and the ones who have examined it and found it to be true and well founded are growing at a large rate.

Do I conclude the minority is wrong because the majority says otherwise?

 

[mjf001]

The ratio roughly goes something like this: for every one person who sincerely examines Mormonism and finds it to be true, and joins our Church; there are a thousand who do not examine it at all! They aren’t interested. Then, for every one person who says (or claims) to have examined it and found it to be false, there are a thousand who examine it and find it to be true. So who cares that you are among the tiny minority who say they have examined it and found it to be false? If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the verdict of the vast majority who have examined it, and found it true!

amgid

It would be interesting to see some empirical evidence to back this statement up.

I was born a Mormon and left. I found more than enough to convince me that the Mormon faith is not true. While in RCIA, on the other hand, I found what I feel to be the truth. I was taught that all truth is objective, while in my memory, the only things I was taught as a Mormon was subjective.
I find myself attracted to the ideas of science, logic, and reason. Faith should not contradict reason, yet as a Mormon, I felt as if I had to suppress logic and reason to believe. I haven’t had this same experience as a Catholic.
I don’t pretend to be an expert or as knowlegable as some of the posters here, this is just what I’ve experienced.

-Michael

 

[mormon_fool]

Brad Haas:

Fool,

Thank you, your post was indeed wonderful. I say again, wonderful.

Now, what if I feel that I’ve received answers of all types already, even without praying and asking for them? Both my mind and my heart have been given all I could ask for, and more: knowledge, moral assurance of the truth of my beliefs, real and definite benefits in my day-to-day life… You seem to understand my position very well (again, thank you), so I wonder what else you would advise me to do.

Whew, I am glad that last post went over OK. I always worry when I try to understand someone’s mindset. A lot of times I am way off. Credit any successful interpretation I have made to your well articulated blog entries.

I think you are right that we get answers even if we haven’t specifically communicated our questions in prayer. God understands us better than we do ourselves so He provides us with beneficial answers. The scriptures are a book of answers waiting for us to ask the right questions. Here is where the risk reward analysis applies to whether to pray or not.

Advantages

1. One thing to ask for in prayer is for increased ability to acquire knowledge. I seriously think that praying can accentuate our natural talents and can is essence temporally raise our IQ. I pray before taking my academic tests (some times in desparation because I haven’t studied enough!). Praying to get right answers religously seems to be an appropriate application.
2. I think prayer can help from entering into cycle of self-confirmation bias. When there is nothing to check my self-interest I tend to select knowledge-increasing materials that support my pre-formed biases. I also try to control the questions to the answers I am getting. Consider the questions that an LDS CD about the apostasy might engender: “What is bad LDS apologetics for 100 Alex?” or “What are some possible evidences the apostasy occured?” We may be too ready to assign answers into one bin or the other, haphazzardly assigning them to questions.
3. This advantage is a lot like the one above, but takes up a different angle. I think stating our questions up front helps us recognize when answers come and assign them to the right question. It also helps provides a focus and a priority level to our questions. Praying increases the rate at which we receive answers. What man gives a neighbor a stone when asked for a fish? I appreciate answers more when I know I approached my questions by praying like the answer all depends on God and studying like it all depends on me.
4. Praying helps me express faith. From that point forward I am giving God the responsibility for steering me in the right direction. For example, last night I prayed to find out if the RCC church was true. When I leave it in His hands, I feel like I am doing a better job balancing being humble enough to submit to His will and maintaining a conviction based on the past experiences He has blessed me with. God knows exactly what it would take to convince me or at least keep me on the line long enough to do so, given my weaknesses as well as my intellectual and spiritual needs. If it is my weaknesses and unrealistic expectations for an answer that cause me not to embrace the true church, I hope my prayerful efforts will allow Him to be more merciful come judgement day.
5. Prayer also gives me a way of measuring my intent. Is it real or not? Having the courage to address my Heavenly Father, the busiest person in the universe, helps me know if my question is just a passing fancy or one I really want to know the answer to. Faith can move mountains, but I can assess how much work it would take if someone gave me a shovel and as long as I needed to complete the task. Using the do-it-yourself philosophy, I would grab a shovel and show I have a real intent to get that mountain moved. I would hope that if the Lord really wanted that mountain moved, he would take pity on me before too long and intervene. He’d wait long enough for me to demonstrate my intent, but move in before my heart fails me and I move on to other tasks. If I were to answer my own question affirmatively about the RCC I would have shovel more knowledge into my bins that seek to understand what catholics find sustaining to their faith. I would have to read Catholic answers and let them address the questions I would have as if I were a Catholic. Thinking positive thoughts about catholicism creates a fertile ground for a seed of personal revelation to take root and confirm those thoughts, if that is how God wants to answer my question.

I’ll continue on with disadvantages.

 

[mormon_fool]

Before I move on to the disadvantages I will confess my pro-prayer bias and recognize that others can state these better than myself.

Disadvantages

1. I think a lot of self esteem comes from being to able to handle a question by one’s own resources. It is like the clydesdale pony pulling the big wagon all by himself :dancing:I think LDS truth claims can be perceived that way by non-LDS. Strong Catholics, whose participation in the catholic faith has honed their self-reliance and intellectual and spiritual muscles can easily prove mormonism to be false to their own satisfaction. In the pony commercial, ignore the fact that the pony may be getting outside help that he isn’t aware of as well as the problems of a mormon using a beer commercial that aired on the Sabbath to show a point.
2. Praying for something that is obviously wrong may violate one’s conscience has already addressed.
3. Competing interests. I think both Brad and I have 2 hats we try to wear that are at odds with each other. On one hand we are seekers wanting to be lead to truth, on the other hand we work at apologetics. The latter discipline often looks at texts (especially the other faiths) with an eye of skeptism and searching for weaknesses and mistakes that can be exploited. In apologetics mode we read the literature of our own faith very charitably and provide creative defences for it, so we can maintain our convictions (and help others as well). The seeker mentality is hard to get into. Texts would have to be evaluated from all sides equally skeptically and equally charitably.
4. Been there done that. Sometimes the window of opportunity to be convinced of a diametrically opposing position has passed and it is time for that person to ask questions that provide more productive answers.
5. The timing factor. Going back to the prayer about doing well on a test. When is it actually appropriate to make such a prayer: Do you pray well in advance while you are studying for it? It seems harder to tell if your prayer is netting any help while you are going through the grind of every-day study and you may be doing fine on your own, anyway (ie perhaps selfishly asking for help when you don’t need any.) The prayer before the big test might have the most spectacular results: your concentration is perfect, your memory has rapid access, you have some inner peace, and you luck out that the parts you didn’t study weren’t on the test; so you conclude someone was watching out for you. But on the other hand, in praying one might feel guilty for not doing enough homework. Or they have done enough homework so they are confident enough already from the unassisted study already put in and choose not to pray. So even if one wants to involve God somewhere in the learning process, it is not always obvious what stage to petition him. I think Moroni’s promise can provide such a dilemna when it challenges reading, pondering, and concluding before getting a confirmation. Unlike the school test which imposes a deadline to prepare for it, Moroni’s test (and a lot of religous decisions we make in our lives) doesn’t tell us how much studying we need prior to it. Sometime it seems we manufacture an emergency or impose deadlines on God when we aren’t sufficiently prepared. We fear He will respond with disappointment or not respond at all. For instance in the school test scenario where He leaves us to face the consequences of not doing enough homework, so we will learn our lesson and be more self-reliant next time. Not knowing when the right time to ask can deter us from asking at all, hence the timing factor works against prayer.
6. The potential for delusion factor. Prayer may open someone up to accept something that is less than divinely inspired as an answer. For example interpretting a fortuitious event as answer to a prayer when the event was a mere coincidence. Or mistaking a natural reaction to some stimuli as a divinely (name removed by moderator)utted feeling or thought. Or misapplying some scripture in a new way that seems to resolve the question. (I respond to this in the advantages column to where I hold God somewhat responsible for allowing me to delude myself, if I ask a sincere question of Him.)
7. The intent factor. Sometimes we know we aren’t up to challenge where we have to get into the mindset of trying to move the mountain with a shovel to show we have real intent. We might also very well become unhinged if God doesn’t answer the way we think He will. There are big risks to getting an answer that requires aligning with another faith. The social factors, the lifestyle changes, the change of relationship with loved ones, a disruption of career plans, the sense of loss in one’s prior investment to his faith, the sense that prior participation in that faith will have to be re-evaluated; these are all things that have to be put on the line if prayer is attempted. Sometimes prayer can violate our comfort levels as much as our conscience.

[cont]

 

[mormon_fool]

continued for Brad

Because the advantages and disadvantages to praying about something are often mixed, I think it is worthwhile to discuss what you should pray about in the prayer itself. As I direct my thoughts heavenward, I will sort out pros and cons, expectations, and ways to word my request. Some of my thoughts seem to get more spiritual feedback than others (or at least I develop stronger feelings for them), so I return to them more often as I plead my case. I try to have faith that the Spirit will teach me what to pray for as I pray or while I am premeditating for a prayer.

After discussing some advantages and disadvantages of praying, I think I can more directly respond to your request for advice. I get the impression that Catholics like to pray responsibly where as Mormons like to experiment. Only you can know whether you prayed fervently enough about the right questions and have patiently given God enough of a window of opportunity to make a course correction if that is what He would have you do. I will presume you have. Still I can’t help myself but invite you to give God and Mormonism one more chance, making as direct appeal in prayer regarding LDS claims as your conscience will allow. I am like the guy that is spotting you while you are lifting weights. You’ve already completed all your reps and nearing exhaustion, but I am the guy that thinks you have enough left for “just one more.”

Just some thoughts from a sentimental fool. Take it is easy on me, I usually avoid discussion about subjective experiences in public exchanges. Let us know how things turn out with the sister missionaries and whether you are successful in enlightening them why “the apostasy” isn’t such an open and shut case.

Later,
fool

 

[amgid]

Brad Haas:

I hope this will demonstrate the mistake in your logic: How do you know the Catholic Church is true without renouncing all other affiliations, professing the Catholic Faith, being baptized, and receiving the Sacraments? You won’t even give the Catholic Church a chance! You’ll never know whether it’s true! You can’t!

I don’t get your point here. You mean I must necessarily join the RCC in order to come to any conclusion whether it is true or not? I don’t see that.

Not as man sees does Amgid see, for Amgid looks on the heart.

Not sure what you mean by that either!

Since the people who truly examine it must find it true, those who don’t find it true did not examine it.

Not true. That is not what I said.

“Who cares,” you ask? Apparently not you; you’re happy to criticize non-members’ beliefs and intentions, leave them where they are, and toss out scriptures in which Jesus says they’ll be damned. Amgid, this is why I don’t generally interact with you.

I respond to different people and different posts in different ways. Each requires a different response. The response given to one is not necessarily applicable to another. I don’t claim to always get it right either. But I do the best I can to come as close to the truth as I can, and I think that most of the time I manage to get there.

In conclusion, as a general response to your post, I should add that if you have sentimental attachments to the Catholic Church, and don’t want to give it up, that is understandable. Even Jesus acknowledged that:

Luke 5:

39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
I have never been one to try to put down the Catholic Church, or call it all kinds of nasty names as the Protestants do. The Catholic Church is a great institution, and has had a great history. No doubts about it. We are offering you the “new wine”. You are stuck in the “old wine,” so you think that that one is better! We recognize that. Our motto is not that you should give up any good thing you have found in the Catholic Church. Our Church leaders have often said that. Their counsel has always been, “You keep all the good you have found in your own church, and come to us and get some more!” We are not asking you to give up any good thing you have found in your old church. What we are offering you is a lot more good stuff in addition to it.

amgid

 

[amgid]

Catholic Dude:

Yes, but werent you the one who argued against the numbers in the past?

I don’t recall having said that. I may have. Don’t remember everything I have said. But whether it would be applicable to this context or not I wouldn’t know.

I could just as easily say the CC has over 1B members and the ones who have examined it and found it to be true and well founded are growing at a large rate.

No, that was not the argument I was making. See my reply to mjf001 below.

Do I conclude the minority is wrong because the majority says otherwise?

No you don’t.

amgid

 

[amgid]

mjf001:

It would be interesting to see some empirical evidence to back this statement up.

According to the Church’s own statistical records, our missionaries have to knock on approximately 1000 doors to get one conversion. (The convert ratio is a lot higher with member referrals, that is why the Church tries to get those up). Out of those 1000 who are contacted by our missionaries but not converted, not all of them slam the door on their face. Some of them do let the missionaries in, and listen to their message; but for all kinds of various reasons, no conversion comes form it (the parable of the sower comes to mind). But it is extremely rare (unheard of in my personal experience) that somebody says that they have actually prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a revelation that it is false! That is extremely rare. I have never come across it. The only people who actually say that are apostates and anti-Mormons, who have made it their business to launch a vicious attack on the LDS Church, and who have a proven track record of dishonesty and deception. The Internet is full of their websites. Their credibility is absolute zero. And their testimony is outnumbered by more than 1000/1 from many faithful LDS who would tell you that they have prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a personal revelation that it is true; and whose credibility is intact. They have a proven track record of honesty, sincerity, and integrity. So in your opinion the overwhelming weight of evidence for prying and receiving a divine manifestation that the Book of Mormon is true rests on whose side?

I was born a Mormon and left. I found more than enough to convince me that the Mormon faith is not true. While in RCIA, on the other hand, I found what I feel to be the truth. I was taught that all truth is objective, while in my memory, the only things I was taught as a Mormon was subjective.

I find myself attracted to the ideas of science, logic, and reason. Faith should not contradict reason, yet as a Mormon, I felt as if I had to suppress logic and reason to believe. I haven’t had this same experience as a Catholic.
I don’t pretend to be an expert or as knowlegable as some of the posters here, this is just what I’ve experienced.

Thank you. You sound like a sincere individual to me. All I can say in answer to that is that you had never understood the LDS side of things correctly, and it sounds as if you never had a strong testimony of it in the first place either. So the course of action you took does not come as a great surprise.

Elder Marvin J. Ashton (Apostle, now deceased) once related a story at general conference by way of an analogy. He said that once a little boy came to his mother one night, crying. His mother said to him, “Why are you crying?” the little boy replied, “I fell out of bed!” His mother said to him, “Why did you fall out of bed?” He replied, “Because I was not in far enough!” Then Elder Ashton concluded that the reason why a lot of people fall out of the Church is because they are not in far enough! You give me the impression of being one of those.

amgid

 

[blueadept]

mormon fool:

After discussing some advantages and disadvantages of praying, I think I can more directly respond to your request for advice. I get the impression that Catholics like to pray responsibly where as Mormons like to experiment. Only you can know whether you prayed fervently enough about the right questions and have patiently given God enough of a window of opportunity to make a course correction if that is what He would have you do. I will presume you have. Still I can’t help myself but invite you to give God and Mormonism one more chance, making as direct appeal in prayer regarding LDS claims as your conscience will allow. I am like the guy that is spotting you while you are lifting weights. You’ve already completed all your reps and nearing exhaustion, but I am the guy that thinks you have enough left for “just one more.”

Awesome posts mormon fool. I’m planning on printing the posts on prayer out and sharing them with my LDS wife. Brad sounds like where I was about 18 months ago.

I don’t know about others here, but I agree that I currently try to pray responsibly and I don’t pray about things that consciously bugs me. I find myself somewhere in the middle of your 2 lists of advantages and disadvantages in prayer.

Obviously when I investigated both churches 2 years ago for about 6 months, I walked away enjoying the Catholic perspective. I realize in true honesty that I didn’t use the best LDS resources at that time and as you’ve pointed out, I looked at LDS material critically and Catholic material apologetically. Definitely not a fair way to analyze two faiths. It definitely didn’t help me to appreciate my wife’s point of view in religious matters. In order to try to gain a more positive aspect of Mormonism, I’ve spent a majority of my forum time on the computer over at the fairlds.org site. A more positive spin on the LDS faith occurs over there (because of the sheer #'s defending the LDS faith vs the anti’s). IMO, the moderators over there keep the flame throwing anti’s in check as well. The point is that I’ve been able to at least appreciate a few more LDS viewpoints than I had before. I still have to develop a positive point of view about a couple of major issues of Mormonism before I’m really willing to honestly pray about the LDS faith, but I’m at least continuing to try to understand my wife’s point of view.

I appreciate your analogy of the spotter in weight lifting. I’m not there yet, but I’ll keep it in mind. I’m taking my wife down to the San Diego Temple this weekend. While she is in there, I’m sure I will contemplate a few of my issues.

I hope everyone has a good day.

 

[majick275]

amgid:

According to the Church’s own statistical records, our missionaries have to knock on approximately 1000 doors to get one conversion. (The convert ratio is a lot higher with member referrals, that is why the Church tries to get those up). Out of those 1000 who are contacted by our missionaries but not converted, not all of them slam the door on their face. Some of them do let the missionaries in, and listen to their message; but for all kinds of various reasons, no conversion comes form it (the parable of the sower comes to mind).

verifiable references please. Anyone can make up spurious statistical claims. Let’s see it. I would point you to Jehovah’s witnesses as but one of many examples of churches with a sale based missionary model that is concerned with closing rates and such. I also think you tend to trivialize the various reasons for people listening to LDS missionaries and not converting. The sweeping generalization that they are all lazy or whatever seems unfounded and awful convenient. Where are the empirical examples? surveys? any real data from these contacts as to why they really don’t join? I’d sure like to see it. We have only your own biased opinion on this and no facts. In any case what on earth do numbers have to do with anything? If over a billion muslims believe in the Koran should that be taken as a statistical proof that thye all received a valid spiritual witness on the truth of the Koran?

amgid:

But it is extremely rare (unheard of in my personal experience) that somebody says that they have actually prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a revelation that it is false! That is extremely rare. I have never come across it. The only people who actually say that are apostates and anti-Mormons, who have made it their business to launch a vicious attack on the LDS Church, and who have a proven track record of dishonesty and deception. The Internet is full of their websites. Their credibility is absolute zero. And their testimony is outnumbered by more than 1000/1 from many faithful LDS who would tell you that they have prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a personal revelation that it is true; and whose credibility is intact. They have a proven track record of honesty, sincerity, and integrity. So in your opinion the overwhelming weight of evidence for prying and receiving a divine manifestation that the Book of Mormon is true rests on whose side?

what a perfect example of global ad hominem! So you have never come across anyone who sincerely studied the LDS church and found it to be false… and that’s statistically valid? oh…the qualifier…“apostates and anti-mormons”. Please. You make it sound like there is a profit motive in these people who have “made it a business”. I have no website and I don’t make a dime off of anything I say regarding the LDS church. Proven track record of dishonesty and deception? would that describe the LDS church publishing canonized scripture from 1835-1876 claiming that polygamy is a crime and they don’t practice it? what about revisionist history? (see Michael Quinn) I think the credibility of scholars publishing facts is greater than those making spurious claims of a Jewish family being the principal ancestors of the american indians or claiming that ordinary egyptian funeral scrolls are somehow the actual prophetic writings of Abraham. Do we really think because 4 million of the “on paper” 12 million LDS in the world believe they have felt the spirit testifying that their church is true (without many of them even studying their church) that makes it true? what about all of the catholic martyrs? how many of the billion plus catholics in the world will tell you they are part of Jesus Christs church? Let’s look at what the Bible tells us and actually study and pray and analyze and come to rational conclusions instead of just getting a “perception” (Gordon B. Hinckley’s explanation of modern “revelation”) or a good feeling. The fact that so many LDS leaders have blatantly taught and practiced things that were specifically wrong according to divine scripture should be sufficient evidence of the falseness of the LDS church.

 

[Catholic_Dude]

amgid-

But it is extremely rare (unheard of in my personal experience) that somebody says that they have actually prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a revelation that it is false! That is extremely rare. I have never come across it.

There are a couple of thins to say here. First of all its subjective, “unheard of in MY personal experience” and “extrememly rare”. This doesnt discredit the people who actually did sit down and think it over even if they are a minority.

Second it goes back to my question a few posts back, how many people who converted actually read the entire BoM?
Just tossing out some numbers here, I would guess out of 1000 doors, at least 50 were the reading type and would have sat down and read the whole BoM. Would that 1 who converts be part of the 50? If yes then what about the other 49? However if he isnt part of that 50 and didnt read the BoM and converted what doest this say?

The only people who actually say that are apostates and anti-Mormons, who have made it their business to launch a vicious attack on the LDS Church, and who have a proven track record of dishonesty and deception. The Internet is full of their websites. Their credibility is absolute zero.

Sounds like something a Catholic would say about how people treat the CC.

And their testimony is outnumbered by more than 1000/1 from many faithful LDS who would tell you that they have prayed about the Book of Mormon, and received a personal revelation that it is true; and whose credibility is intact. They have a proven track record of honesty, sincerity, and integrity. So in your opinion the overwhelming weight of evidence for prying and receiving a divine manifestation that the Book of Mormon is true rests on whose side?

This is totally subjective. In this case someone who is credible to you is only lds, you dont count the ones who study or even leave the lds as credible. How do you define “overwhelming weight of evidence”? And not to mention of course the nod for the BoM is going to come from the LDS side, just like how a Catholic would view the Pope in light of non Catholics.

 

[mormon_fool]

blueadept:

Awesome posts mormon fool. I’m planning on printing the posts on prayer out and sharing them with my LDS wife. Brad sounds like where I was about 18 months ago.

I don’t know about others here, but I agree that I currently try to pray responsibly and I don’t pray about things that consciously bugs me. I find myself somewhere in the middle of your 2 lists of advantages and disadvantages in prayer.

blueadept, thanks for your kind words here. I also find your posts on the FAIR message board to be refreshing. I like lurking in on conversations between people of faith more than I like watching the exchanges with athiests. The latter seems to pre-dominate on the FAIR boards and for me the athiest tactics and viewpoints get quite depressing. Which is why I appreciate level-headed contributions you and other Catholics make both here and at FAIR.

Later,
fool

 

[mormon_fool]

Brad’s blog reads:

She asked me if I would read Alma 32 and pray about it. I told her I’d read it, but I wouldn’t violate my conscience. I told her that she was asking me to put myself into her shoes, to approach things the way she thought it was best to approach them. She acknowledged this, and said she understood how much of a request that is. I asked if I could get her to do the same thing, and put herself in my shoes to some extent. She said sure, and so I asked if I could bring her some of the writings of the aforementioned early Christians. She said that missionaries only read scriptures and LDS publications. I asked if she would read it if I could clear it with her mission president, and she said yes. I asked how I could contact him, and she said she would have to ask him. I asked if I could bring the documents in a sealed envelope for him to read, and she said she would just have to ask him.

While I doubt the sister missionary will be allowed to study other materials besides ones that will help her teach the LDS faith, perhaps Brad will allow me to take her place? Yes this is the Read and Pray about it challenge. Fool promises to read the equivalent of the Book of Mormon or 531 pages (we will keep a running word count up to 300,000 words). I will let Brad select the readings himself, which should be accessible over the internet or in the USU library. I will reserve the right not to read something that violates my conscience or literature that works harder at painting mormonism in a bad light than it does at presenting catholicism in a good light.

For each selection, I will post a brief charitable response and summary to show that I am grasping the main ideas. I will perhaps ask follow-up questions and allow some discussion about what the others here think I should have got from the reading. Before, during, and after the reading I will pray for comprehension, the ability to read the article with a non fault -finding eye, and that I will be able to recognize the truth in that selection. In the meantime I will keep my LDS apologetic activities to a minimum. I won’t enter any new discussions. I will stay away from any site that is anti-catholic or provides a rebuttal for any of the readings given to me. I will pray daily (until I get my word count in) for a witness that the RCC is true and welcome any people to pray in my behalf that this will happen.

I will do all this in exchange for Brad doing the same (well as much as his conscience will allow) with regards to whatever reading selections the LDS missionaries give him until Brad or the missionaries call their visits off.

Deal?

–fool

 

[Brad_Haas]

Ooh. Let me think about that one.