My husband's family says im not going to be seen in heaven since im not mormon...

[Bob_Crowley]

The point of posting on baptism of blood and baptism of desire is to show that the Catechism (and Lumen Gentium) says that non-Catholics can go to Heaven. Both are explicitly discussing those not formal members of the Catholic Church, and yet are saved.

Those in Purgatory are not in Heaven yet, however they will be. What does that have to do with anything? There will probably be many Catholics in Purgatory as well. The point is that non-Catholics will be in Heaven, and this can include Mormons. And on that point, earlier you stated, in post #68, that Protestants can’t get into Heaven until the churches reunify. That is not Catholic teaching, and you have not posted anything to corroborate that statement. Would that mean that Catholics in Purgatory get to go to Heaven once they are purified, and Protestants will have to wait until the churches are reunifed? That is not Catholic teaching, sorry.

Now, on the last point, the article you linked to earlier addressed this:

““Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation” (LG 16).”

I do not know the hearts of all, however I can safely assume that many Protestants and other non-Catholics are not deliberately in the churches that they belong to. They most likely really do believe that they have the truth. This is completely different from knowing that the Catholic Church is the true Church of Jesus Christ, and then turning around and rejecting His Church. That is not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is what Lumen Gentium and the Catechism are talking about: those who, “through no fault of their own” do not know Christ’s Church. And they aren’t talking about knowing the name of it. They’re talking about knowing that it holds the Fullness of Truth.

So again, unfortunately Church documents do not support your claim, and I’m just trying to help you see that. No document says that Protestants cannot go to Heaven until all churches come back into union with the Catholic Church. Baptism of blood and baptism of desire are clear doctrines that say that it is possible for non-Catholics to be saved. Those in Purgatory will be in Heaven, after purification, and there is no doctrine that says that Protestants can’t leave Purgatory until the churches come into reunion. That just doesn’t make sense. And baptism of desire is NOT referring to those that deliberately turn away from the Catholic Church after knowing that it has the fullness of Truth. It is talking about those who “through no fault of their own” (the very words of the Catechism and Lumen Gentium) do not know the truth of the Catholic Church. I know many Protestants (and Mormons) that do not think that the Catholic Church is the true Church, and follow what they believe is the “full Truth” as best as they can. This is what those documents are talking about. Catholic doctrine is clearly in support of what I have said.

 

[Bob_Crowley]

Bob_Crowley:
If we take the hypothetical case of a Protestant and Catholic, both in Purgatory, both having almost exactly the same good and bad qualities and who both died around the same time. I would expect that on all isues other than the specific one of denying Christ’s demand for unity, both would progress to admission to Heaven’s Gate at pretty much the same rate.

But that’s when the crux comes. In front of them stands the man appointed by Christ to be the Rock on which His Church would be built. One of the two agreed with this statement, the other rejected it (and a few other things as well). This is no longer an issue of personal defects - this is a deliberate challenge strking at the very heart of Christian unity.

If you’re an American citizen, and you get a bit disillusioned with American government, and defect to another allied state, one which shares many of the charactertics of the US that you left, do you retain your citizenship? You might be perfectly welcome to visit, you may be as ethical a peson as any American citizen, you may even be a strong ally, you might still have superannutation rights based on your contributions, but you are NOT American. You’ve forsworn your citizenship. You have similar ethics, may admire the Constitution, etc. etc. but in fact you have stated that American Citizenship is not worthy of you.

The decision to stay removed was your own.

Sorry, but I’ll stick to the old pastor, and I think we’ll have to disagree. One day we’ll find out for ourselves which way it goes.

I also notice there appear to be no preserved Protestant saints as there is with St. Therese or Padre Pio. I’m not much into relics, but if Protestants are just as much a part of the Church of Christ as the saints, why do saintly Protestants not show the same miraculous sign of sanctified incorruption? Some of them have been quite saintly. I’d almost say my old pastor was a saint, except that he wasn’t Catholic.

unamsanctamcatholicam.blogspot.com/2008/05/padre-pio-incorrupt.html

youtube.com/watch?v=5nB7fO4z3yg

marypages.com/IncorruptBodies.htm

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

I won’t go into speculation on what God will do at Judgment, which is probably why this whole discussion between us has started: based on speculation. What we do know is what the Church teaches on this issue, and is what I have presented, namely:

-By teaching doctrines on baptism of blood and baptism of desire, we know that non-Catholics can be saved.

-Those that are saved are those “through no fault of their own” (the words of the Catechism and Lumen Gentium) do not know the truth of the Catholic Church (that it is Christ’s Church). Such people are non-Catholics not because they are rejecting something they know as the actual Truth, but because they believe that their own teachings are true (which does not necessitate an affirmation of the Catholic Church being the true Church). We are not talking about those that know the truth of Christ’s Church, and reject it.

-Those in Purgatory, whether Catholic or non-Catholic, are saved, and will be going to Heaven once purified.

-Christ’s Church is not divided, because the Catholic Church has always existed in full, with the fullness of Truth. Groups may schism off (such as the Orthodox and various Protestant groups), but there is no schism within the Church, since Christ’s body cannot be divided. To say otherwise as a Catholic is heresy. Christ’s Church is the Catholic Church, and not a collection of all churches that are called “Christian”.

-There is no Church teaching at all that says that Protestants will not go to Heaven until the churches reunify.

Who said that Protestants are “just as much” a part of Christ’s Church? I certainly didn’t. Again, see the doctrines of baptism of blood and baptism of desire (and of course Purgatory).

So yes, if you don’t see that my points are merely parroting what is found in documents like the Catechism, Lumen Gentium, and Dominus Iesus, then we will have to agree to disagree. Your former pastor sounds like a nice person, but I only advise you to listen to your Catholic pastor and the words of the Catholic Church, since you’re now a member of Christ’s Church!

 

[Bob_Crowley]

I’ll stick to my opinion, as no doubt you’ll stick to yours. However I have a question.

At what point am I expected to believe all Church documents are “infallible”?

If there is a doctrine claiming Papal Infallibility, but only under certain circumstances, then why is the Church regarded as “infallible” in every other religious field on which it chooses to comment?

I’ve had certain personal experiences for example, some of which I’ve related here. Against this I am expected to accept church documents as nullifying all these experiences. And I don’t think they do.

 

[ThuriferAcolyte]

I’ll stick to my opinion, as no doubt you’ll stick to yours. However I have a question.

At what point am I expected to believe all Church documents are “infallible”?

If there is a doctrine claiming Papal Infallibility, but only under certain circumstances, then why is the Church regarded as “infallible” in every other religious field on which it chooses to comment?

I’ve had certain personal experiences for example, some of which I’ve related here. Against this I am expected to accept church documents as nullifying all these experiences. And I don’t think they do.

I think you should read these articles:
newadvent.org/cathen/07790a.htm
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=149
cuf.org/faithfacts/details_view.asp?ffID=149

You are not expected to believe that all Church documents are infallible, because they are not. However, that does not mean that they are not doctrinally correct. For example, the Catechism is not an infallible document. However, it does contain doctrines that are infallible. On the other hand, Lumen Gentium is infallible, because it came from the Second Vatican Council, and all Ecumenical Councils are infallible.

Remember, being Catholic is also about accepting the Divine authority of the Church. So, we might not agree with a doctrine, or our personal experiences don’t point towards the truth of a doctrine, and yet, by accepting the Catholic Church as God’s Church, we know that it cannot err on matters of faith and morals (doctrinal issues). The Truth is the Truth, whether we accept it or not.

Papal Infallibility is only one type of infallibility in the Church. As said above, the Ecumenical Councils are also infallible. Please read the links I left that discuss the Infallibility of the Church. The Church is not regarded as infallible in every religious field it chooses to comment on. However, such statements can be based on infallible doctrines, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that the statement itself is infallible (unless it’s merely parroting an infallible statement, such as scripture).

Relating back to what we’ve been talking about, Lumen Gentium is an infallible document (in fact, it also talks about infallibility). The Catechism, while not infallible, references the infallible Lumen Gentium. Both documents say that baptism of blood and baptism of desire allow for non-Catholics to go to Heaven. Whether that’s directly to Heaven or after purification in Purgatory (which are also the options for Catholics), they are saved and will go to Heaven. And again, there is no document in the Church, infallible or not, that claims that Protestants cannot go to Heaven until the churches reunite.

 

[youngsaint]

Correct, only those in a state of grace can go to Heaven. You should look into baptism of desire and baptism of blood. The Church does not teach that you have to be Catholic to be saved, nor does it teach that non-Catholics cannot go to Heaven until the churches are unified (that’s the first time I’ve heard of that).

Bob Crowley said that the Church is Christ’s body, and it is divided. That is unfortunately heretical. Christ’s body has never been divided. Groups schism off, but the Church has always existed in its fullness. The Catholic Church does not depend on the various Protestant churches for its status, nor does it teach that the Orthodox and Protestant schisms caused the Church to be divided up. In our view, the Catholic Church has always existed fully, not divided, and is Christ’s Church.

Ok, I looked it up in “This is the Faith”, it says one must have a catholic baptism to get rid of original sin.

 

[Kdesiel]

Ok, I looked it up in “This is the Faith”, it says one must have a catholic baptism to get rid of original sin.

“This is the Faith” ahhh one of my all time favorite books. I think I’ll dust that off and go through it again.