My impressions of the Evangelical Lutheran church I visited

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PietroPaolo said:
No, there are three conditions that need met for a sin to be mortal.
  1. Grave matter (present here - violates the 3rd c)
  2. Deliberate action (present here - she wasn’t forced to skip Mass)
  3. Full Knowledge (unknown here)
If all three conditions are met, the soul is in a state of mortal (deadly) sin. If the person dies in this state they will go to hell forever. Such is the teaching of the Church. Remember, St. Augustine taught the humanity was a “massa damnata” with most people going to hell. I’d suggest you read his writings more widely than that one pull quote.

You might also remember that God doesn’t damn people to hell in the way you are envisioning. We all choose whether we go to hell or heaven, not just by our words but by our actions and whether we repent or not. Those who love God will be saved. But they will also avoid mortal sin like the plague and repent when they do fall. You might be interested in what St Catherine of Siena, doctor of the Church, had to say about this. I go into some detail here:

The Hell We Choose. An Advent Call to Holiness.

Freely choosing to commit a mortal sin is basically telling God to get lost. We can’t blame God (or appeal to some sentimental idea that God loves us so much He forces us to be with Him against our will - a spiritual marriage replaced by a spiritual rape) when we’ve reject Him, die outside of His friendship, and end up in hell. It isn’t His fault. It’s always the sinners.

This is basic Catholic 101 stuff. Do you happen to have a Catechism of the Catholic Church on hand? Reviewing some of the Church’s teachings on sin and hell might be helpful.
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Yes, to two questions. I did know of Augustine’s massa damnata, however, I was using this quote in context of the conversation, and the judgement passed on a individual’s soul. I also do own a Catechism of the Catholic Church, but I will repeat that I am not a Catholic as shown on my profile toolbar, therefore instructing me to take a Catholic position on mortal sin would not be appropriate considering I have objections to certain Catholic dogmas.

However, as I said earlier, I see the Catholic church as a light in a dark place and I respect it wholeheartedly. I just do not believe some of it’s doctrines, therefore, I cannot in full conscience be Catholic, and I never was at any point. 🙂
 
JonNC said:
How? I am encouraging her to attend Catholic Mass to receive the sacraments and hear the word. Am I not supposed to encourage a Catholic to do that?

Jon
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"As for your decision not to attend mass, from my own Lutheran perspective, needing nor desiring a response, forget the obligation. I’d encourage you to go because you need and want word and sacrament. That’s the reason to go. Don’t deny yourself these wonderful, miraculous gifts of grace because of a particular priest. "

It is unclear in your second sentence that you are encouraging her attend a Catholic Mass b/c of her need for word and sacrament or whether you are encouraging her to forget her Mass obligation and attend the Lutheran service for word and sacrament.

You meant the former, I apologize. Perhaps you can see how I misread your comment.
 
Aslan10 said:
Yes, to two questions. I did know of Augustine’s massa damnata, however, I was using this quote in context of the conversation, and the judgement passed on a individual’s soul. I also do own a Catechism of the Catholic Church, but I will repeat that I am not a Catholic as shown on my profile toolbar, therefore instructing me to take a Catholic position on mortal sin would not be appropriate considering I have objections to certain Catholic dogmas.

However, as I said earlier, I see the Catholic church as a light in a dark place and I respect it wholeheartedly. I just do not believe some of it’s doctrines, therefore, I cannot in full conscience be Catholic, and I never was at any point. 🙂
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You are not a Catholic, but the OP is. If she was Anglican then I’d agree, she can blow off Anglican service for Lutheran service without a problem. Being Catholic, she is bound to attend Mass.

Think of it like this. If the UK doesn’t have a law against smoking pot, but the USA does and the OP is an American, you ought not advise her to smoke pot b/c such is okay in England (where you are). You’d, hopefully, advise her to follow the laws of the USA. Likewise, she is bound to follow the law of the Church.
 
PietroPaolo said:
"As for your decision not to attend mass, from my own Lutheran perspective, needing nor desiring a response, forget the obligation. I’d encourage you to go because you need and want word and sacrament. That’s the reason to go. Don’t deny yourself these wonderful, miraculous gifts of grace because of a particular priest. "

It is unclear in your second sentence that you are encouraging her attend a Catholic Mass b/c of her need for word and sacrament or whether you are encouraging her to forget her Mass obligation and attend the Lutheran service for word and sacrament.

You meant the former, I apologize. Perhaps you can see how I misread your comment.
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Perhaps I was unclear. To be more precise, so that Country Gal and everyone else understands. I am encouraging her to attend her Catholic mass, not the Lutheran mass, not because of an obligation, but because she needs and wants the gift of grace found in word and sacrament.

Thank you for pointing this out, giving me the chance to clarify. 👍

Jon
 
PietroPaolo said:
I’m not offended and I certainly understand what I wrote. Deliberately missing the Sunday obligation is grave matter and precisely does mean the person “would possibly be going to hell for all eternity” if they died without repenting. Such is the teaching of the Church, even if you find it offensive or “heinous.” See Canon 1248 and CCC starting at 2180. Such an action is a violation of the Third Commandment. If the action was taken deliberately and with knowledge that such an action violates Church teaching, it is a mortal sin and the person, again if they do not repent, will go to hell.

Of course, we only know, in this case, that the OP deliberately chose to miss Mass. We don’t know whether or not she understood what she was doing, which is why we can’t pass judgment on her actual situation (which we wouldn’t do even if we knew - such isn’t our place). It is, however, an act of charity to suggest she gets right with God. Certainly, she knows now that what she did violates her obligation to attend Mass each Sunday and Holy Day of Obligation. Thus, I’d hate to see her freely choose to miss Mass again.

But, I will return the favor and give you the benefit of the doubt now. Certainly you don’t think the immemorial teaching of the Holy Catholic Church (founded by Christ Himself) is “heinous.” Maybe you’re confusing a Sunday Obligation with apparently some kind of Sunday Suggestion. You’ll note “in good conscience” is meaningless here. You either fulfill the obligation or, if impossible to fulfill it for some reason beyond your control, the obligation is removed. Not liking the pastor, obviously, would not amount to such a reason.

Remember, “mercy flows within the Godhead,” but we have to be willing to accept that mercy - which requires repentance and a firm will to “go and sin no more.”

I do hope the OP came to this Catholic forum precisely to hear this, at the promoting of the Holy Spirit, of course. Repent and believe the Gospel, not do whatever your conscience bids, is after all the most charitable thing ever said. God bless and have a Merry Christmas.
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I also hope that is what the OP was looking for as well.
Mary
 
PietroPaolo said:
You are not a Catholic, but the OP is. If she was Anglican then I’d agree, she can blow off Anglican service for Lutheran service without a problem. Being Catholic, she is bound to attend Mass.
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I apologize if it seemed I was “advising” the OP to “blow off” mass. It was not my intentions, in fact, I never even addressed the OP. I objected to the deductions that one was hell-bound for attending a different service on one Sunday. God bless.
 
Look back through this tread…post by post…and tell me if you are feeling particularly proud, or a little bit embarrassed for some of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters.🤷

I’m not at all sure how I feel, or how I should feel.
 
Aslan10 said:
I apologize if it seemed I was “advising” the OP to “blow off” mass. It was not my intentions, in fact, I never even addressed the OP. I objected to the deductions that one was hell-bound for attending a different service on one Sunday. God bless.
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The reasons for that are really two.
  1. Catholics are bound to follow Church law. Breaking Church law is sinful and can be (in this case is) mortally sinful.
  2. The Catholic Mass isn’t “a different service.” It, unlike a Lutheran service, is a re-presentation, in bloodless manner, of the once for all sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. A Lutheran service, lacking a valid priesthood, is a gathering of Christians singing songs and praying to God (good things all, but not a replacement for the sacrifice Christ Himself desires us to attend). Going to both on Sunday is a valid option for the OP. The Church doesn’t forbid that and it isn’t sinful. It could open one up to heretical teachings, but a Catholic mature in the Faith shouldn’t have any problems.
 
commenter said:
If you go back, take notes on what they do that is effective; and note what they do, that was not so successful. There are lessons to be learned here. Give them encouragement for their reaching out to the poor, friendly greeting, and all else that was good. You might ask them how they managed to recruit and train volunteers for their ministries.

Then go back to the Catholic Church. Do NOT come across as holier than thou. But DO pick out some people who might, possibly, be interested in making things better. Talk to them. A few people then gently go a parish leader, with a suggestion for one improvement at a time. The reason for helping the poor is not because the Lutherans are doing it, but because Christ did it. Tactfully point out what Pope Francis is saying! If people are open minded they might be willing to listen to the person who organized volunteers at the Lutheran Church to come over and share how they did it, to the Catholic group. If you get some practical ideas, share them on CAF, too.

But the most important thing you can do is pray. It sounds like the Catholic parish needs someone like you, to shake things up.
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Best post I’ve read in some time. 👍

Sounds like an opportunity for linking efforts between two parishes in order to answer Christ’s call to help the least of His children. :yup:

Jon
 
PietroPaolo said:
The reasons for that are really two.
  1. Catholics are bound to follow Church law. Breaking Church law is sinful and can be (in this case is) mortally sinful.
  2. The Catholic Mass isn’t “a different service.” It, unlike a Lutheran service, is a re-presentation, in bloodless manner, of the once for all sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. A Lutheran service, lacking a valid priesthood, is a gathering of Christians singing songs and praying to God (good things all, but not a replacement for the sacrifice Christ Himself desires us to attend). Going to both on Sunday is a valid option for the OP. The Church doesn’t forbid that and it isn’t sinful. It could open one up to heretical teachings, but a Catholic mature in the Faith shouldn’t have any problems.
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:amen:
 
Neofight said:
Look back through this tread…post by post…and tell me if you are feeling particularly proud, or a little bit embarrassed for some of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters.🤷

I’m not at all sure how I feel, or how I should feel.
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Reproving sinners is a spiritual work of mercy and an act of compassion. Read the Gospels and see if you are also embarrassed by Christ’s calling out of sin. If so, meditate on that. Remember, charity isn’t telling someone to keep sinning and it will all be okay. It is joining Christ in the call to “repent and believe the Gospel.”

If you have a better approach to the OP, we’re all ears, brother.
 
JonNC said:
Best post I’ve read in some time. 👍

Sounds like an opportunity for linking efforts between two parishes in order to answer Christ’s call to help the least of His children. :yup:

Jon
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Yes indeed, Jon. Our Catholic parish wanted to be able to assist the homeless one night per week but given the size of our parish regretfully our insurance company would not insure us for that project which was recommended or even may have been necessary to meet city requirements to do so.

Peace and Blessings,

Mary.
 
MaryT777 said:
Yes indeed, Jon. Our Catholic parish wanted to be able to assist the homeless one night per week but given the size of our parish regretfully our insurance company would not insure us for that project which was recommended or even may have been necessary to meet city requirements to do so.

Peace and Blessings,

Mary.
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Sounds like you need a new insurance company. 🙂
Catholics do such magnificent work in this area, that it seems the Devil’s work when roadblocks are erected. :mad:

Jon
 
JonNC said:
Sounds like you need a new insurance company. 🙂
Catholics do such magnificent work in this area, that it seems the Devil’s work when roadblocks are erected. :mad:

Jon
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Yes the devil is at work, sometimes in City ordinances. This most certainly is true.

Mary.
 
Country_Gal said:
The service did not have anything other than the children’s excellent program and carols. This, of course, was unusual. No preaching or conventional liturgy.
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The fact that they completely omit the liturgy is telling, isn’t it?
 
Country_Gal said:
I attended a local Lutheran church this Sunday. I was greeted very warmly and personally at the door by a greeter. He really made me feel welcome.

I went to find a place in the pew, I’d gotten there a little early to have my choice. There were a few people already there. I had been told by the greeter that there was a children’s program today. I saw children preparing, dressed in Christmas story garb.

People started coming in. An older woman sat next to me and wanted to talk with her friends in the pew in front of me. She kept getting in my space to do that. People are very social before the service there. Once the service started I felt more comfortable, it does make a newcomer feel left out when people are socializing.

The children took turns in reciting a well constructed enactment of the Christmas story in rhymes and songs. It was great. This was interspersed with the congregation singing Christmas carols to a real pipe organ.The music was impressive! I love that pipe organ! The children sang very sweetly. They also had adult solos, very talented performers, one lady sang a Chinese Christmas song, she was Chinese. It was great.

After the service my greeter connected with me again. It turns out that he was a pastor there back in the 70s and 80s. He was a sharp, elderly man. He gave me a tour of the wonderful facility, showed me the indoor gymnasium that serves the children. Once a week at night the Church also serves the local homeless by providing bedding and showers. They alternate with other churches in this small town. Sadly, the Catholic Church isn’t one of them, I was disappointed to hear. A volunteer stays up all night to keep a watchful eye on the sleepers, who as you know are often mentally ill and unpredictable.

The service did not have anything other than the children’s excellent program and carols. This, of course, was unusual. No preaching or conventional liturgy.

I told the greeter that I would be back again. 👍
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Why would you go back again? Seriously?
Mary.
 
PaulfromIowa said:
The fact that they completely omit the liturgy is telling, isn’t it?
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As I said, Paul, that pastor would have heard my distress about leaving out the liturgy and sacraments.
Our choir performed a contata on Sunday, but our pastor still had Absolution, the Eucharist, and the reading of the word.

Jon
 
Neofight said:
Look back through this tread…post by post…and tell me if you are feeling particularly proud, or a little bit embarrassed for some of the posts by our Catholic brothers and sisters.🤷

I’m not at all sure how I feel, or how I should feel.
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I’m happy to see your post. Reading through this thread, all I could think is “if these people think they’re encouraging someone to return to Mass, they’re wrong.” Talk about piling on!
 
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