My Local TLM

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattheus09
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Brooklyn said:
The transitional Mass from 1965-1969 is not the TLM. Close, but no cigar. It is already starting to lose the beauty of the TLM. Maybe it’s okay for some, but I wouldn’t be happy with it.
Click to expand...
I agree. The “as it was before the Second Vatican Council” integrity of Blessed Pope John XXIII’s missal is compromised severely with any of these post-1962 changes.
 
I agree. The “as it was before the Second Vatican Council” integrity of Blessed Pope John XXIII’s missal is compromised severely with any of these post-1962 changes.
Click to expand...
Yes, but the Missal of John XXIII is a living liturgical form of the Church. It is not a “fly in amber” as Pope Benedict said. Therefore, it is subject to change and it has already been changed by the revised Good Friday prayer. And more changes will come with additions to saints and more prefaces.
 
ProVobis said:
I agree. The “as it was before the Second Vatican Council” integrity of Blessed Pope John XXIII’s missal is compromised severely with any of these post-1962 changes.
Click to expand...
Personally, I don’t have much against the “interim Missal” of 1965 itself (except, perhaps, the abbreviated communion formula), so I wouldn’t go so far as to say it (and I mean the 1965 version and not the second version of 1967 which was nothing more than a prelude to the Novus Ordo) was particularly severe.
 
Crusader90 said:
Therefore, it is subject to change and it has already been changed by the revised Good Friday prayer. And more changes will come with additions to saints and more prefaces.
Click to expand...
These kinds of changes would hardly be noticed, whereas the vernacular-only Epistle and the Gospel in vernacular would be noticed. I have that at many of the EF’s I attend and it bothers me, since I can’t see how suppressing the Latin is beneficial. Prior to Vatican II, the readings were both in Latin and vernacular.
 
If Rome approves of it, then is there anything I can do? Certainly if the congregation doesn’t want the changes it would be un-pastoral.
 
I would go to the F.S.S.P parish. You will probably be happier in the long run. The F.S.S.P is awesome.
 
Sounds to me like your Priest is trying to turn the Mass into the Novus Ordo service of 1969. I would go to an FSSP or SSPX instead of this.
 
I would go to an FSSP or SSPX instead of this.
Click to expand...
I might just have to. Is what this priest doing common in other places? I have read reports of it happening at other parishes, but I never thought it would happen at mine.
 
I wouldn’t stay in your parish if the pastor is trying to create some sort of hybrid TLM/Novus Ordo liturgy. You said the F.S.S.P is only 30 minutes away. That’s nothing. A few songs, a couple of commercial brakes, and before you know it your there.

The F.S.S.P and S.S.P.X will not tweak the liturgy. Both groups are hard core traditionalist and faithful to the Traditional Latin Mass.
 
What is really distressing me is why would Rome approve of such changes? Crusader90 posted a link and it seems like my priest is correct. I will go to the FSSP parish, but it still bothers me that what is happening is approved.
 
  1. We may ask why the priest is making such changes? Cui bono?
  2. Currently, those who want a Latin Mass, want the TLM. They tend to want to get away from local variation. Changes like this are distressing.
  3. A priest here in London did something like this. Attendance gradually dropped and the Mass was stopped.
 
  1. A priest here in London did something like this. Attendance gradually dropped and the Mass was stopped.
Click to expand...
When was this? Because the previous indult for England was for the traditional Missal with the changes in 1965.
 
Just something a pal mentioned. I kind of saw this chap in action at one TLM he said. He wasn’t as meticulous about the old rite as he could have been, despite the congregation specifically wanting the TLM.

My pal said he made Novus Ordo style changes to the TLM and it just didn’t ‘take’. Attendance petered out. To clarify: no one in authority said ‘stop’. Attendance just petered out.
 
I wouldn’t push it too much with the chancery, after all most chanceries don’t like traditionalists much anyway and too much communication with the chancery over these matters could trigger the liberals prohibiting the TLM altogether. The liberals are always looking for divisions and problems among our ranks to discredit us and to look for excuses to do away with the Traditional Mass or to “contain” it.

Just be happy you have an alternative to the Novus Ordo. And if you want the 1962 Missal just go to the FSSP.
 
Most of these changes describer below were implemented in 1964 and 1967

divinumofficium.com/www/missa/rubrics1967.html

by Paul VI. As far as I know the Clear Creek monks in Oklahoma celebrate the mass in similar way.

These changes were explicitly mentioned in the Sacrosanctum Concilium
mattheus09 said:
I have attended a bi-monthly TLM in my local area for a fews years now and it has been by the book. However, they have started to implement some changes into the Mass starting in the summer of this year. The epistle (read by one of the altar boys) and Gospel (chanted by the priest) are only in English facing the people, I much prefer the way it was done before. The priest doesn’t privately say the parts that are sung by the choir (the creed, sanctus, agnus dei and even some of the propers), he chants the secret prayer aloud as well as the doxology at the end of the canon. We all sing the Pater Noster together and he chants the prayer after the Pater Noster aloud. He omits the psalm (I think 42) at the prayers at the foot of the altar and the Last Gospel (could this be an advent thing?)

New changes on the the 1st Sunday of Advent included: the priest changed the prayer said when administering communion. He now says “Corpus Christi” and we are supposed to respond “Amen”. We know have prayers of the faithful after the “oremus” of the offertory.

Is this correct? Can he do this? The congregation is split half and half in regards to these changes. Is there any recourse that I can have? I have talk to those in-charge of the “latin mass community” and they claim bishop, as wells as the chaplain for the latin mass community, supports these “minor” adaptations and they say that these changes are permitted under “official documents” and that benedictine communities follow this as well. Is there anything I can do? Or should I just go to the FSSP about a half an hour away where none of these changes have been enacted.
Click to expand...
 
I talked to the priest yesterday again. He said that the changes are here to stay. He said they implement Sacrosanctum Concilium and, in his opinion, is what the Mass of Vatican II should look like. The Bishop has approved and those involved making the decision have checked with various persons in authority and confirmed that the changes are permitted. He also said that the Mass is using the 1962 Missal, but in 1965 a new Ordo Missae and Ritus Servandus were issued, not a new missal. So he said the Mass celebrated at the parish is more properly described as the “1962 Mass with the 1965 Rubrics and Ordo Missae.” This past Sunday, Gaudete Sunday, he introduced the Liturgy of the Word being said at the chair. The prayers at the foot of the altar were said at the foot of the altar, but after that he went to the chair.
 
mattheus09 said:
I talked to the priest yesterday again. He said that the changes are here to stay. He said they implement Sacrosanctum Concilium and, in his opinion, is what the Mass of Vatican II should look like. The Bishop has approved and those involved making the decision have checked with various persons in authority and confirmed that the changes are permitted. He also said that the Mass is using the 1962 Missal, but in 1965 a new Ordo Missae and Ritus Servandus were issued, not a new missal. So he said the Mass celebrated at the parish is more properly described as the “1962 Mass with the 1965 Rubrics and Ordo Missae”
Click to expand...
They could have implemented SC well before the 2007 SP was released. I would only question why now when the SP allowed all priests to say the 1962 Missal or use the 1970 Missal.
 
Most of these changes describer below were implemented in 1964 and 1967
Click to expand...
divinumofficium.com/www/missa/rubrics1967.html
Click to expand...
by Paul VI. As far as I know the Clear Creek monks in Oklahoma celebrate the mass in similar way.
Click to expand...
These changes were explicitly mentioned in the Sacrosanctum Concilium
Click to expand...
When I talked to the priest and asked him if the 1967 changes would be used he said no as there was no typical edition issued for the 1967 updates. The last typical edition of the Ordo Missa and Ritus Servandus was in 1965 (or 66), he said the 1967 changes were clearly transitory.
They could have implemented SC well before the 2007 SP was released. I would only question why now when the SP allowed all priests to say the 1962 Missal or use the 1970 Missal.
Click to expand...
Good question.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top