My mistake in marrying the first time

[juliasmith]

What if your first husband will not consent to the annulment? Then what? Sorry…I am just out of luck? I am now feeling the OP’s frustration.

Actually, the annulment can still go through it just slows down the process even more. I was afraid my ex-husband would be uncooperative and discussed it with Fr. He assured me that it would take longer but the annulment would still be possible.

 

[dianaballein]

I guess I don’t see how its relevant. I was not a Catholic when I got married at 19. We divorced over 10 years ago. He is remarried. Why should all of that keep me from becoming a Catholic? Can’t I just confess? Absolve my sins? Repent?

 

[jmcrae]

What if your first husband will not consent to the annulment?

It’s not up to him; it’s up to the Tribunal.

He can stall the process by not answering the questionaire, but if he waits too long, they will simply call other witnesses in his place - he can’t stop the process forever.

 

[jmcrae]

I guess I don’t see how its relevant. I was not a Catholic when I got married at 19. We divorced over 10 years ago. He is remarried. Why should all of that keep me from becoming a Catholic? Can’t I just confess? Absolve my sins? Repent?

If you’re not married right now, and have no plans to get married, then yes, you can do this.

Getting divorced is not the problem; it’s getting “re-married” that causes the problems.

 

[dianaballein]

I am remarried, to a non-practicing Catholic.

 

[jmcrae]

I am remarried, to a non-practicing Catholic.

Then it’s relevant, and you need to have a Declaration of Nullity, because it relates to the validity of your current marriage.

You will also want to make sure that any previous marriages of your spouse are dealt with, as well.

 

[dianaballein]

Then it’s relevant, and you need to have a Declaration of Nullity, because it relates to the validity of your current marriage.

You will also want to make sure that any previous marriages of your spouse are dealt with, as well.

This is going to take some serious reflection on my part.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

guess I don’t see how its relevant. I was not a Catholic when I got married at 19. We divorced over 10 years ago. He is remarried. Why should all of that keep me from becoming a Catholic? Can’t I just confess? Absolve my sins? Repent?

The Catholic Church starts with the presumption of a validity of a given marriage. For Catholics, for a marriage to be valid requires that Catholics follow Catholic norms such as marrying in Church. A nonCatholic who follows the ‘presumption of validity’ for HIS church, or a nonChristian who follows the presumption of validity by marrying in a legal civil ceremony, is considered validly married.

Therefore when you married, as a nonCatholic, you married legally, correct? You didn’t have any particular other requirement, but you did marry ‘legally’ and your marriage is presumed to be valid on that basis.

For your marriage to turn out to be invalid means that there must have been something AT THE TIME OF THE MARRIAGE OR BEFORE that would have interfered with your (or your husband’s) ability to make a valid contract of marriage. Such things would include, for example, if your husband had a mental illness and did not tell you of it. . .because if you had known, you would not have married him. Therefore, there was fraud. There are other grounds as well. Perhaps, at 19, you (or your spouse) had no idea of staying married ‘forever’. Perhaps one of you just wanted the ‘wedding’ and never intended to ‘stick it out’. That kind of immaturity could lead to there not being a capacity to enter a valid marriage, etc.

Things that happen AFTERWARD are a different story. You cannot get an annulment 'because he left me and remarried." That was wrong of him, and tragic. . .but it is no ‘reason’ to declare the marriage itself invalid. However, if he left you because at the time of the marriage, he had never intended to ‘stay’ in the marriage, because this would have been his state of mind AT THE TIME OF THE MARRIAGE, it could be grounds for an annulment. Adultery, divorce, and even remarriage are not grounds themselves, though.

What would you do, then, if the Tribunal found the first marriage valid, and meanwhile you had met and married somebody yourself? Then, as a Catholic, you would be in the position of either ‘giving up’ the new man, or defying your catholic faith to live in sin with the new man. Fearsome choices. But not, you’ll note, choices that "the Church’ has forced upon you. The Church is a great defender of marriage. As a person who was married, the Church assumes (until proven otherwise by its investigators, if explored) that your first marriage was valid, because you did, after all, marry, and you and your ex-husband did make vows.

I know and I understand–I was married, my ex likewise divorced me and has remarried–and even after all that I still waited 3 years before seeking the decree, and it took 11 months (and no, he wasn’t that cooperative either). . .and if it had found the marriage valid I would have accepted that finding with just as much ‘acceptance’ (I trust) that I accepted that the finding was that the marriage was not valid and I am free to marry. Actually I was almost as relieved for my ex (since he has remarried) because I didn’t have to worry about HIM living in sin.

Trust the Church. It is hard. . .but it is so worth it.

I don’t know if YOU have remarried yourself–that makes it harder because if you HAVE remarried, then there is no WAY you can ‘confess and repent’, is there? If you have remarried, without a decree of nullity, with your FIRST marriage still presumed valid, then you are living in sin with your ‘second’ husband (even if it is a ‘legal marriage’) and you’d still be living with him, and still in sin. That is usually the biggest hangup for people seeking an annulment–they can’t understand why if their FIRST spouse’ dumped them’ and is remarried, that they can’t do exactly the same thing, get the ‘decree’ (because hey, if the first guy cheated, then the marriage was obviously defective). . .so let me have my second! But it doesn’t work that way. . . Vows are ‘for better and for worse’ not, "unless he dumps me in which case this marriage is null and void.’ IOW, a marriage doesn’t become defective because of things that occur DURING the marriage. The marriage is ONLY ‘defective’ if there was a problem RIGHT AT THE START.

 

[MomblessedX3]

Why is everyone ignoring my question about my husband will divorce me if I ask him to live as brother and sister, and telling me all sorts of other things instead?
If he divorces me, how would the church possibly say that is a good thing? Thats an outright contradiction!

I just recently went through something similar to this. I have always been a Catholic. I love my faith. I however married someone outside of the Church because he wasn’t Catholic. I was given bad information from a priest at my hometown Church. I operated under that misguided information for over 14 years until I stumbled upon this wonderful forum and learned that I should not be recieving the Precious Body and Blood of Christ at mass since I was not validly married in the the Church.

I lived with my husband as brother and sister until we could have our marriage convalidated. He loves and respects me enough that is wasn’t something that was going to put our marriage at risk.
I had the priest explain to him why it was necessary and it wasn’t an issue. At no point did it ever seem as an outright contradiction. It was just a humbling sacrifice to be made to honor God. It was much more difficult to me to be denied of the Eucharist at Mass than it was to refrain from marital relations.

 

[dianaballein]

The Catholic Church starts with the presumption of a validity of a given marriage. For Catholics, for a marriage to be valid requires that Catholics follow Catholic norms such as marrying in Church. A nonCatholic who follows the ‘presumption of validity’ for HIS church, or a nonChristian who follows the presumption of validity by marrying in a legal civil ceremony, is considered validly married.

Therefore when you married, as a nonCatholic, you married legally, correct? You didn’t have any particular other requirement, but you did marry ‘legally’ and your marriage is presumed to be valid on that basis.

For your marriage to turn out to be invalid means that there must have been something AT THE TIME OF THE MARRIAGE OR BEFORE that would have interfered with your (or your husband’s) ability to make a valid contract of marriage. Such things would include, for example, if your husband had a mental illness and did not tell you of it. . .because if you had known, you would not have married him. Therefore, there was fraud. There are other grounds as well. Perhaps, at 19, you (or your spouse) had no idea of staying married ‘forever’. Perhaps one of you just wanted the ‘wedding’ and never intended to ‘stick it out’. That kind of immaturity could lead to there not being a capacity to enter a valid marriage, etc.

Things that happen AFTERWARD are a different story. You cannot get an annulment 'because he left me and remarried." That was wrong of him, and tragic. . .but it is no ‘reason’ to declare the marriage itself invalid. However, if he left you because at the time of the marriage, he had never intended to ‘stay’ in the marriage, because this would have been his state of mind AT THE TIME OF THE MARRIAGE, it could be grounds for an annulment. Adultery, divorce, and even remarriage are not grounds themselves, though.

What would you do, then, if the Tribunal found the first marriage valid, and meanwhile you had met and married somebody yourself? Then, as a Catholic, you would be in the position of either ‘giving up’ the new man, or defying your catholic faith to live in sin with the new man. Fearsome choices. But not, you’ll note, choices that "the Church’ has forced upon you. The Church is a great defender of marriage. As a person who was married, the Church assumes (until proven otherwise by its investigators, if explored) that your first marriage was valid, because you did, after all, marry, and you and your ex-husband did make vows.

I know and I understand–I was married, my ex likewise divorced me and has remarried–and even after all that I still waited 3 years before seeking the decree, and it took 11 months (and no, he wasn’t that cooperative either). . .and if it had found the marriage valid I would have accepted that finding with just as much ‘acceptance’ (I trust) that I accepted that the finding was that the marriage was not valid and I am free to marry. Actually I was almost as relieved for my ex (since he has remarried) because I didn’t have to worry about HIM living in sin.

Trust the Church. It is hard. . .but it is so worth it.

I don’t know if YOU have remarried yourself–that makes it harder because if you HAVE remarried, then there is no WAY you can ‘confess and repent’, is there? If you have remarried, without a decree of nullity, with your FIRST marriage still presumed valid, then you are living in sin with your ‘second’ husband (even if it is a ‘legal marriage’) and you’d still be living with him, and still in sin. That is usually the biggest hangup for people seeking an annulment–they can’t understand why if their FIRST spouse’ dumped them’ and is remarried, that they can’t do exactly the same thing, get the ‘decree’ (because hey, if the first guy cheated, then the marriage was obviously defective). . .so let me have my second! But it doesn’t work that way. . . Vows are ‘for better and for worse’ not, "unless he dumps me in which case this marriage is null and void.’ IOW, a marriage doesn’t become defective because of things that occur DURING the marriage. The marriage is ONLY ‘defective’ if there was a problem RIGHT AT THE START.

I sort of sense some anger in this reply, or a condescending tone at my ignorance. Not sure which it is, but either way…let me address a couple of things.

My husband did not dump me. I left him. We had actually separated 7 years earlier and we tried to make it work again and couldn’t. My children were growing up watching two people who consistently screamed at each other, called each other names, and were very unhappy. We married very young and yes, perhaps we did not know the full meaning of what we were undertaking…so true. My daughter began to retreat into herself and was prone to outbursts of anger…and my son pulled into his shell…all warning signs that what my children witnessed was not how I wanted them to perceive marriage…and my ex-husband would not go to counseling. All that aside, now that we are not married, we are friendly…and he is happy. Something I could not achieve. Sometimes people fight so hard to make something work that shouldn’t. Both of my children have shared that they were grateful to have peace.

Sorry to get off topic…but in my haste to ask questions and understand, I felt as if all of a sudden I was being lead to slaughter…and the way this was worded to me did not make me feel very good about opening my heart to what you were espousing.

 

[jmcrae]

I sort of sense some anger in this reply, or a condescending tone at my ignorance.

Having known this poster from before, my sense of it is not that she is trying to be any of the above; in fact far from it - but rather that she is just trying to get as much information on to the table as possible, to give you the best possible chance of understanding your situation.

To the best of my understanding, all of the information she has given is accurate.

 

[dianaballein]

If that’s the case, then using the scenario that he dumped me, rather than he divorced me…might have been nicer. Especially since I was the instigator, and he is the father of my children and I do give him that respect.

I also think it has something to do with the CAPS typing. That can be construed as yelling when its done a lot.

Peace be with you that you came to her defense. That’s a sweet thing to do.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thanks, JM:

No, Diana–not any anger at all–quite the contrary! A lot of fellow feeling, in fact!

JM is right–I tend to try to put all the ‘facts onto the table’ to give the most complete picture that I can.

I have been told by my children, though, that sometimes when I do that (which I call ‘being thorough’) that to people who don’t know me and aren’t used to me that I look like I am ‘puffing off my knowledge.’ That might have looked condescending to you but it wasn’t meant to be and I am truly sorry that it came across that way!! And I’m very grateful to you for bringing it to my attention, actually, because maybe it is a good wakeup call to me not to be in such a hurry to ‘let people know’ without being a little more careful in how it might come across!!

God bless you and your family. It is hard when these things happen and I have --well, not sympathy exactly, because your situation is different in many ways–but I do know how hard it is for the children when marriages don’t work, and awful as it was for me, the very worst part was seeing the kids suffer, as they will no matter how hard we try to spare them.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Again, my apologies, Diana!

I was trained (back when the wheel had just been discovered) on those prehistoric ‘typewriters’ (yea, even beforeth the word processors) and I came ‘late’ to computers.

My own personal writing and typing style --and that of my family’s–involved the heavy use of ‘capitalization’ for emphasis. I did not know for years, in fact, that ‘all caps’ on a computer screen was shouting, and I still --try though as I may–have posts where I will forget and type the all caps! I’m so sorry!

Further, I had been typing a while (too much probably) on some other threads which were a little more casual and used terminology that would have been more appropriate there. Again, I am sorry. (I actually thought that I had referred to **my **exhusband dumping **me–**in the middle of ye mid-life crisis–and not assuming yours had dumped you–but again, I’m sure in the throes of my bad composition I got confused. --Dang, I had to go back because, of course, I had put ‘my’ and ‘me’ in all caps and I fixed them and bolded them. Boy, you really are being good for me here!) Ah, I went back. Yes, I had used ‘divorced’ earlier but went into the more casual–and obviously inaccurate’ terminology later. Mea culpa!

I hope it helps. Again, I apologize.

 

[dianaballein]

Thank you, I appreciate that very much. I was raised on typewriters myself, my dear. I am no spring chicken!!! Well, I feel like I am but my daughter tells me “I was around when the olden days were”. I love that.

You know, I suppose I am blessed. My children actually thrived after my divorce. I guess I spent so much energy dealing with the bad things that I had very little of myself left for them…so once that was settled, they had me…all of me. The good parts, the tough parts, but I was 100% there for them. My son is now 20 and my daughter is almost 16 and we have wonderful relationships. Another blessing that came from it is that my daughter now sees how she wants to be treated and that she deserves to be treated well…and my son now sees how to treat a lady. I doubt that would have happened if we had stayed married, and we would have perpetuated the cycle of unhealthy and unhappy marriage.

So now here I am…in a good stage of life and I find happiness at Mass…only to see that this may not be the path for me after all. It’s disheartening.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you, Diana. . .and you know, I’m going to hope that it is going to be the path. I know there are obstacles but hopefully not unsurmountable ones? Maybe your priest will be able to help. Forums are great–I mean, there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge, etc., but sometimes we just don’t know ‘everything’. And in any case, there’s no reason you can’t come to Mass anytime you want and make spiritual communion until things do work out, if that is something that you would like to do.

Your children sound wonderful and blessings to you. Mine are all in their 20s now. We had an extremely difficult time (my youngest is disabled and has just moved into a residential facility ‘on her own’ for the first time–I am so proud of her but I miss her dreadfully! and of course, her disability had a huge impact on her brother and sister as I’m sure you can imagine) but hopefully things are on the way ‘up’ now.

God bless and I hope that you will be able to find your heart’s–and soul’s–desire in Christ.

 

[dianaballein]

Thank you, Diana. . .and you know, I’m going to hope that it is going to be the path. I know there are obstacles but hopefully not unsurmountable ones? Maybe your priest will be able to help. Forums are great–I mean, there are a lot of people with a lot of knowledge, etc., but sometimes we just don’t know ‘everything’. And in any case, there’s no reason you can’t come to Mass anytime you want and make spiritual communion until things do work out, if that is something that you would like to do.

Your children sound wonderful and blessings to you. Mine are all in their 20s now. We had an extremely difficult time (my youngest is disabled and has just moved into a residential facility ‘on her own’ for the first time–I am so proud of her but I miss her dreadfully! and of course, her disability had a huge impact on her brother and sister as I’m sure you can imagine) but hopefully things are on the way ‘up’ now.

God bless and I hope that you will be able to find your heart’s–and soul’s–desire in Christ.

I bet you do miss her! One of my dearest friends has a middle son who is autistic, and they recently put him in a group home with other autistic adults. He is functioning rather well but after providinig that care to him for so long, she feels a bit lost. I will pray that God continues to bring you peace and love…and thank you for this last reply. You helped to give me a sprig of hope.

 

[newbetx]

I guess I don’t see how its relevant. I was not a Catholic when I got married at 19. We divorced over 10 years ago. He is remarried. Why should all of that keep me from becoming a Catholic? Can’t I just confess? Absolve my sins? Repent?

You can only marry once (until death do you part.) So if it were a vailid marriage (not in the legal sense), you are still married to him. There are many things that are examined as to the validity of the marriage. And it won’t keep you from being Catholic if you don’t marry again. You just won’t be free to marry.

I know that I’m not explaining the ‘why’ very well. I think a priest or a canon lawyer could do a much better job and probably has on a similar thread in the past. Under certain circumstances it’s easy to see that certain conditions existed that nullify the marriage. Under many other conditions, it’s not so easy. Please be patient and pray for the outcome you desire.

As I’ve heard said before: “It’s not easy. Just worth it.”

 

[dianaballein]

As I stated in earlier posts, I am already remarried. I divorced over 10 years ago, and remarried two years ago. My ex has been remarried much longer than I…but thank you for the advice.

 

[Marc_Aupiais]

No sacramental marriage dissolvable (separate living is)
"In Christian marriage, which implies the restoration, by Christ Himself, of marriage to its original indissolubility, there can never be an absolute divorce, at least after the marriage has been consummated;
Non-Christian marriage can be dissolved by absolute divorce under certain circumstances in favour of the Faith;
Christian marriage before consummation can be dissolved by solemn profession in a religious order, or by an act of papal authority;
Separation from bed and board (divortium imperfectum) is allowed for various causes, especially in the case of adultery or lapse into infidelity or heresy on the part of husband or wife. "
Imprimatur- OCE
newadvent.org/cathen/05054c.htm

May aid- only sacramental marriage absolute.

Diocese JHB

"The Church. may dissolve a valid marriage when one or (or both) of the parties is not baptised as a Christian. This was a practice of the early Church and is mentioned by St Paul in 1 Cor 7:12-15. It is known as the “Pauline Privilege”. It is preferred that Christians marry Christians rather than persons who do not share their faith, especially keeping in mind the advantage for children of the marriage. "
catholic-jhb.org.za/tracts/tract_12.htm