My mom: “The Church should sell all her buildings, use that money for the poor, and hold Mass in a run-down building.”

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A few days ago, my mom and I were discussing the fire at Notre-Dame and how the Yellow vest protestors were angry at how much money was raised in 48 hours while people lived in poverty (or at least that was what they were protesting last Saturday). I mentioned how the French government owns it, and a few other things. She basically said that she thinks the Church is too rich and should focus more on the people rather than buildings and stuff. What she doesn’t realize that the Church is there to help people discover who Jesus is and help people get to heaven. She doesn’t want to talk about it anymore, as she would accuse me of being obsessed over this topic, as I am autistic and tend to do so. She also hates it when she is corrected, and feels like she is “always wrong about everything” as of late.
A little help, here?
 
It is not polite to correct your mom. Give her a hug and be kind to her.

Maybe you could compare how she cooks her best food, uses the good dishes fresh flowers when there is an important guest coming for supper.
 
Dealing with our parents can be very challenging sometimes. Trying our patience, maybe even getting on our nerves. And I know in certain discussions uncharitable things can even be said, even when we aren’t intending to.

I agree with TheLittleLady in what she said. But perhaps you could also remind your mother than the Catholic Church actually doesn’t own Notre-Dame, it is in fact property of the French government. In fact the French government seized all Catholic Church property at around 1905 during a dispute with Pope Pius X.

The French government demanded greater control over Church affairs on French soil, or else they would seize all churches. Pope Pius X refused to bend his knee, and so the French government seized Church property on French soil.

So even if the Church wanted to sell their churches in France, they could not do so.
 
Scott84 said:
But perhaps you could also remind your mother than the Catholic Church actually doesn’t own Notre-Dame, it is in fact property of the French government. So even if the Church wanted to sell their churches in France, they could not do so.
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I did. At first she didn’t believe me, but my dad also said that this was correct.
However, I think she meant the Catholic Church in general. She thinks that all the parishes should be sold and Mass should be held in any old building because it is all “stuff”, using Matthew 18:20 as her reason.
 
What your mother dials now to realize is that the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world; it does more for the poor than any other institution in the world.

That being said, I’m only saying this to help you personally. I would suggest your mother’s wishes and not discuss it again. Just pray for her.
 
LiveSkype said:
She thinks that all the parishes should be sold and Mass should be held in any old building because it is all “stuff”, using Matthew 18:20 as her reason.
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While we ought to help the poor, the job of the Church isn’t to help the poor. It’s to give God His due worship. Non-Catholics help the poor, they do it all the time. It doesn’t take a Catholic church to do so. What it does take a Catholic Church to do is worship God in the fullness of truth. If you love someone, you don’t settle on giving them scraps of your time and affection. You give them your best. The same goes for God. If we prioritize the poor over Him, then we’re not actually helping the poor, because there is no greater assistance the Church can give beyond the Sacraments.

Lex oriandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
 
Fauken said:
While we ought to help the poor, the job of the Church isn’t to help the poor. It’s to give God His due worship. Non-Catholics help the poor, they do it all the time. It doesn’t take a Catholic church to do so. What it does take a Catholic Church to do is worship God in the fullness of truth. If you love someone, you don’t settle on giving them scraps of your time and affection. You give them your best. The same goes for God. If we prioritize the poor over Him, then we’re not actually helping the poor, because there is no greater assistance the Church can give beyond the Sacraments.

Lex oriandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
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Ding! Ding! Ding! Finally someone who understands!!!
 
But then the funds are depleted and then you have to keep selling stuff, or you can open a museum and charge entry fees and it’s a continual source of funds.

The catholic church is the largest charitable organization IN THE WORLD…google the stats onhow much the church donates, share that with her.
 
Remember Judas, who expressed frustration with Mary when she poured the precious ointment on Jesus’ feet, and how Jesus validated her action. It is an old argument and there will always be some who make it.
 
Really? Hold Mass in a run-down building? How does she expect us to focus on the service when is either too hot or too cold and the roof can cave in at any moment? Art and stuff needs to be bought only once and maybe restored if it’s a historical piece. Most of the costs of church buildings is basic maintenance you’d expect for any building.

EDIT: Also, I feel your pain OP. So many parents find it hard to concede that their adult children can be right.
 
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I think it’s the Book of Exodus where God gives very specific instructions as to the construction of the arc, altar, menorah, etc. Can someone help me out here?

We are to build our churches as ornately as our budgets allow. It’s all about worshiping God. Other posters, above, have said as much.
 
ioannes_pius said:
What your mother dials now to realize is that the Catholic Church is the largest charitable organization in the world; it does more for the poor than any other institution in the world.

That being said, I’m only saying this to help you personally. I would suggest your mother’s wishes and not discuss it again. Just pray for her.
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I agree that it’s best not to bring it up unless she does. I also agree with the point about the Church being the largest charitable institution on the planet. The Church is certainly doing her part.

To add to this, when I get into these types of conversations, I like to bring up the example of the American parishes built by immigrants in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. These communities were often dirt poor Germans, Poles, Italians, etc, yet they still managed to build strikingly beautiful churches to glorify God. The Church offers aid to people’s material needs, but also aid’s people’s spiritual needs. It’s not either/or!
 
Fauken said:
While we ought to help the poor, the job of the Church isn’t to help the poor. It’s to give God His due worship. Non-Catholics help the poor, they do it all the time. It doesn’t take a Catholic church to do so. What it does take a Catholic Church to do is worship God in the fullness of truth. If you love someone, you don’t settle on giving them scraps of your time and affection. You give them your best. The same goes for God. If we prioritize the poor over Him, then we’re not actually helping the poor, because there is no greater assistance the Church can give beyond the Sacraments.

Lex oriandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
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That argument could read as counter to the plain meaning of the apostolic teaching found in the New Testament.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17

Having said that, what fine building and what beautiful things will the poor have, if not in a church? What we do for the church, we offer to the spiritual needs of the poor as much as for the rich, and what else do the poor have? They cannot provide these beautiful things for themselves, as the wealthy can.

In the end, I totally agree with you, only disagreeing–or more likely, clarifying, true?–with the idea that serving the poor and providing for the church are competing interests. These two things do not compete any more than the two great commandments compete.
 
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LiveSkype said:
I did. At first she didn’t believe me, but my dad also said that this was correct.
However, I think she meant the Catholic Church in general. She thinks that all the parishes should be sold and Mass should be held in any old building because it is all “stuff”, using Matthew 18:20 as her reason.
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Churches and the things in them are made beautiful for the edification of all, without regards to status or wealth. What other place can say that? Do the symphonies or the museums open their doors for free? Rarely, if at all, and yet these cultural institutions are worthwhile as part of our human patrimony.

How much more should we contribute towards the spiritual patrimony that is carried out equally for all? We only fail if we furnish our churches with beautiful things meant to elevate the soul and give glory to God but then do not give the poor a way to participate just as fully as anyone else.

Let us be blunt, too: few of us are confronted with the choice of spending either on the needs of the altar or the needs of the poor. Most of us are confronted with parting with money we use on ourselves, and we’re not giving like the poor widow, not by a longshot. We really don’t have any room to criticize anyone else’s generosity, regardless of where they are aiming their generosity.

As for Matthew 18:20, I’d point her to the incident in Bethany (Matt 26:6-13)
Now when Jesus was in Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, a woman came up to him with an alabaster jar of costly perfumed oil, and poured it on his head while he was reclining at table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and said, “Why this waste? It could have been sold for much, and the money given to the poor.” Since Jesus knew this, he said to them, “Why do you make trouble for the woman? She has done a good thing for me. The poor you will always have with you; but you will not always have me. In pouring this perfumed oil upon my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. Amen, I say to you, wherever this gospel is proclaimed in the whole world, what she has done will be spoken of, in memory of her.”

We can spend on the alabaster jar and still have enough for the poor, provided our personal wants are put into third place. (And, by the way: Allowing buildings of any kind to become really run down is poor stewardship, since buildings generally have a longer, more useful and less expensive lifespan if they are properly maintained.)
 
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PetraG said:
That argument could read as counter to the plain meaning of the apostolic teaching found in the New Testament.
What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well,” but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it? So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. James 2:14-17
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Not if you consider the greatest commandment:
“22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
22:37 Jesus said to him: Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart and with thy whole soul and with thy whole mind.
22:38 This is the greatest and the first commandment.
22:39 And the second is like to this: Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
22:40 On these two commandments dependeth the whole law and the prophets.”
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If you love God, then you’ll set Him and the worship of Him as your priority. And from that love will come your love of neighbor and help of the poor. As I said, Lex oriandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
 
Fauken said:
If you love God, then you’ll set Him and the worship of Him as your priority. And from that love will come your love of neighbor and help of the poor. As I said, Lex oriandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi.
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As I said, the two are not in competition. If they are–and it does happen that love of ritual can supplant the love of God that has resulting love of neighbor as its hallmark–there is something very wrong. Likewise, when love of neighbor pretends to supplant the love of God, the results are catastrophic, as numerous attempts at secular utopia demonstrate. When love of God and real worship of God is deemed irrelevant or of minor importance or when relationships with people are presumed to be a primary source of grace and capable on their own with regards to providing a personal relationship with God, it is not long before people become objects. (The history of France can attest to this…)
 
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My spouse is a Lutheran pastor as I’ve mentioned before. One hallmark of dying churches is that they have become fixated on their property and related items. Let’s be honest, what does a Catholic Church need? An alter, maybe a tabernacle and a cross? Sure beautiful buildings are nice…but is it keeping you from building your congregations or even keeping it open and relevant? Or from serving the needy?

I’m not discounting that stained glass, statues, paintings, relics, and the like are important to the experience of worship or connection with the past for some people. But Jesus didn’t exhort his followers to make beautiful buildings. He wanted the to go out and evangelize.
 
PJH_74 said:
I’m not discounting that stained glass, statues, paintings, relics, and the like are important to the experience of worship or connection with the past for some people. But Jesus didn’t exhort his followers to make beautiful buildings. He wanted the to go out and evangelize.
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Our Lord praised the widow who gave her two pennies, all she had to live on, to the Temple treasury.
What was she contributing towards? Yes, he criticized those who would eat up such contributions on self-indulgent things, that is true. Yet, he corrected those who were outraged at a woman who spent an exhorbitant amount of money to annoint him with a very costly perfume as well. Why did he say that the story of what she did would be told in memory of her?

Yes, it is a mistake to place more importance in buildings than in the people whose gathering the buildings are meant to shelter and support or to presume that sacred objects accomplish worship in and of themselves. That doesn’t mean that there is something wrong with sacred buildings or sacred objects or even objects or buildings that aren’t sacred.

Let’s remember that Judas didn’t actually object to the “waste” of money because he was really so concerned with the poor:

Mary took a liter of costly perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and dried them with her hair; the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil. Then Judas the Iscariot, one of his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said, “Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?” He said this not because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief and held the money bag and used to steal the contributions. So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial." (John 12:3-8)

When a church is healthy, the buildings aren’t just churches being built or just monasteries or gathering spaces, but also hospitals and orphanages and schools. Meaningful outreach to those in need usually takes place in buildings. Even the Missionaries of Charity have buildings. They don’t just tend to the poorest of the poor out on the street. They also have monstrances, and they aren’t made of tin.

We shouldn’t think there is a competition between worship and charity. There isn’t. When everything is given its proper importance, there is enough for everything important.
 
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