My mother, and what happened this week

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But as for ME, you seem to be implying I am somehow on the road to becoming a Catholic. Trust me, nothing could be further from the truth. As a Jew I find abhorrent the idea that a priest can turn bread and wine into flesh and blood to be consumed by worshippers. Or that a woman long dead somehow mediates between God and man, or that she somehow plays a role in dispensing graces to people. Its all just TOO WEIRD to me as a Jew. But if YOU choose to believe in it, more power to you, KWIM?

Why do you wish to read more into that than there is? :confused:
What about the idea of God commanding someone (Abraham) to kill his own son? Does that strike you as a bit strange, even if he was stopped at the last minute? What about God commanding people to sacrifice animals to Him? Does that seem just a little strange to you? What about a God that requires babies to be circumcised? Can you honestly say that doesn’t seem strange?
 
What about the idea of God commanding someone (Abraham) to kill his own son? Does that strike you as a bit strange, even if he was stopped at the last minute? What about God commanding people to sacrifice animals to Him? Does that seem just a little strange to you? What about a God that requires babies to be circumcised? Can you honestly say that doesn’t seem strange?
No, it seems perfectly normal to me, because the same God who created us can ask such things.

God was TESTING Abraham, which is why he had an angel stop him at the last moment.

And, to show God loathes human sacrifice, he had Abraham substitute a ram in place of his son.

But, knowing as I do from the Bible that God forbids people to eat human flesh or eat any manner of blood (see Leviticus), I know he would never command anyone to eat flesh or drink blood.
 
No, it seems perfectly normal to me, because the same God who created us can ask such things.

God was TESTING Abraham, which is why he had an angel stop him at the last moment.

And, to show God loathes human sacrifice, he had Abraham substitute a ram in place of his son.
It’s easy for you to say you don’t think those things were strange now, but what if you had only recently been told about them? You’ve grown up knowing those stories so they don’t seem “strange” to you, but if you were honest you would admit that it does seem a little strange. A God who forbids killing the innocent commands a father to kill is son!
But, knowing as I do from the Bible that God forbids people to eat human flesh or eat any manner of blood (see Leviticus), I know he would never command anyone to eat flesh or drink blood.
O contraire, He does command that we eat his flesh and drink his blood, sacramentally. We don’t consume the physical properties of flesh and blood, but we do receive the substance sacramentally

BTW, are you aware of the miracle of Lanciano? If so, how do you explain it?

In case you are not familiar with it, here are a few details.

In the 8th century, a Priest was consecrating the host and wine, when the host turned into human flesh and the wine into human blood.

These have been preserved to this day. In the '70’s scientists were allowed to perform tests on them. The test results were that the flesh was human heart that was still alive, and teh blood was human blood - type AB.

The host, which turned into a human heart, has been alive in the relequary for 1200 years. How do you explain that?

Here’s a link therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html
 
Grandfather,

I give up. It is evident you think I’m on some mystical road to Damascus. I don’t know how to make you understand otherwise.

Let me only say that if you knew me offline, you’d know that my interest in other religions is purely academic. I have always tried to be tolerant of the religions of others, maybe sometimes too much, which has led people to think wrongly that I am interested in their religions for conversionary purposes. Maybe I need to be more hostile, like other Jews, so you won’t get the wrong idea.

Actually I’ve had a similar problem with Buddhists. I’m involved in the campaign to help the Tibetans who are under Communist Chinese oppression. In the course of working with Tibetans, some assume I must have an interest in Tibetan Buddhism because of my involvement (many of the Americans involved in the movement are in fact converts to Buddhism so its natural for them to make that assumption, I suppose.) But I’m not; I’m just interested in helping Tibetans have religious freedom in their own country.

I happen to know a woman who is Jewish, but who is a Professor of New Testament studies. I guess you’d think she, too, is somehow mystically headed for a road to Damascus experience. But she’s not, I know her too well.

I have always tried to be a compassionate, understanding, tolerant person when it comes to those of other religions, and complicated religious situations (such as my late mother’s.) That is why I called a priest.

I see now that I made a mistake; I should not have called the priest. If I am ever in such a situation again, I will not call a priest unless the person plainly requests one. Because you are right–my mother had no awareness of it anyway, and it has only been grossly misunderstood by some Catholics. So I have learned my lesson, not to be too tolerant because my actions will then be misunderstood, and I don’t want that.

I regret having done that; I will never think to do that again if such a situation again ever arises.

Goodbye.
 
Not all catholics feel you must convert-true conversion is putting God first in your life.

Some people are just misguided by their own will, as opposed to doing God’s will.

I think you are a fine example of a true Jew, one of God’s chosen.

May God always Bless you and your family.
 
I’m totally new to this forum (indeed, I found it after doing a websearch to look up a legend my mom had told me about ,pertaining to deaths during Holy Week).

A little background: my mother was raised Roman Catholic many decades ago, and the last time she’d been in church was around 1940. She converted to Orthodox Judaism a few years before marrying my father, who was Jewish by birth. My older sister and I were raised as Orthodox Jews, although I am still Jewish I am not Orthodox (though I am somewhat observant.) My husband is a convert to Judaism also, originally from a Baptist background.

Anyway…for the past year I had been taking care of my mother, because she had grown very ill. The last 2 months she became terminal, and they put her into hospice care. I decided on March 10th to have hospice bring her home so I could take care of her here. She passed away on March 17th, in my home, surrounded by her grandchildren, my husband and myself.

On Sunday, the day before she passed, I awoke with a very stiff neck from work I’d done a few days before, cleaning out her apt so I could close it out. My neck pain was such that I could only turn my head one way, to the left (where the TV was.) The TV had a movie on, called The Messenger, about the life of St Joan of Arc. I watched it because I’d always been enamored of Joan of Arc since childhood (I’d even become a tomboy because of my attachment to her!). This was a movie about her I’d not seen before.

Anyway, I happened to start watching it at the point where she was begging the priest to give her the Last Rites. He refused because she had been condemned as witch and heretic. The look of horror that came over her face at being refused made an impact on me.

In a daze, I decided what I needed to do was call a priest to give my mom the Last Rites. I figured it couldn’t hurt, esp. since she was now unresponsive, alive yet unable to talk. She did not even open her eyes, and I think she had already entered the pre-death coma-like state many terminally ill people go into before they die.

In ten minutes, a priest was here and he gave her the Last Rites (Anointing of the Sick, he called it.) I did not find out until later that it had been Palm Sunday, perhaps one of the busiest days of the year for priests! (which made me feel bad that I’d called him out like that on such short notice.)

The next morning she died, at 5 AM on March 17th. She died on the 2nd day of Holy Week…and I remember a legend she had told me years ago. She said that many Italian Catholics (what she was raised) believe that someone who dies during Holy Week goes to Heaven. How eerie that this is when she ended up dying.

The chaplain at the hospice told me that terminally ill people are often able to telepathically communicate their spiritual wishes to those they are closest to, before they die. He felt my mom communicated to me that she wanted to die reconciled to the church (and no, this chaplain was not Catholic either!)

This part will sound silly, but here goes. In the 25 yrs I’ve been married, my mom always told my husband that “it always rains on Good Friday, from 12 noon to 3 PM”. He became determined to prove her “superstition” wrong, so he would watch every GF from 12 N to 3 Pm to see, and it ALWAYS rained where we live. Without fail. It was weird, but I did recall it always raining when I was growing up too, because she used to tell me that.

Today, IT DID NOT RAIN. For the first time in my life, and esp. the last 25 years. My husband mentioned it, because it has spooked him out. The sky was not even cloudy or dark, it was a very bright, sunny day. My husband said that he feels God rewarded my mom’s faith in her belief about GF, by not letting it rain even once until after she died.

That might not mean anything, but evidently to him (and me), it does.

I’d be curious to know what you all think of this?

BTW I decided to post it in this board because the last time my mom ever went to church was long before Vatican 2, and because I am very aware of the “old church” vs “new church” controversy (I have many Traditionalist Catholic friends from my involvement in pro-life and homeschooling communities). The pre-V2 church is the ONLY Catholic church my mom was familiar with, and because of that its the only one I’m familiar with too.

In case anyone is curious, although I have a very strong faith in Judaism and would never convert away from it for anything in thew world…I have always felt a very strong love for the traditional Catholic church externals, esp. the Tridentine Latin Mass (I had 5 yrs of Latin in pub sch, and I love classical music and Gregorian chant, so that helps!) My only problem is with the theology.

I know this is a lot to dump on all of you at once (!), but I feel at peace with the way my mom passed.

I bet she is the only person to receive the Last Rites of the Roman Catholic church, and then have an Orthodox Jewish funeral and burial in a Jewish cemetery! Yet for some reason, it all feels so RIGHT, considering her background. She loved being Jewish, yet she did retain some love for the religion of her childhood.

Carols Daughter
Hello and God bless you for being your mother’s daughter. 😉 I am so sorry for your loss. You heard a call on behalf of your dear mother and listened.

Pray about what exactly it is you are adhering to within the faith you were born into. And for a man to go from Baptist, believing in Jesus Christ as Messiah to forget all of that? The Son of Man here then never existed? I mean no disrespect; I am just offering you an observation. You said:
I am still Jewish I am not Orthodox (though I am somewhat observant.)
I know you have been offended by the proselytizing of others, but let me ask you this:

If you knew the joy and understood with all of your mind, body and soul the way to life eternal and earthly life filled with a taste of that joy yet to come, would you share it with me or keep it to yourself? I sure hope you would share it with me. If you can’t handle evangelization on behalf of Catholics, let me warn you to never go to an evangelical forum as you would probably be extremely offended. 😉

Rosalind Moss, convert from Judaism to Catholicism.

I understand you have absolutely zero interest in Catholicism except for the historical context, etc. I appreciate that.

I also find it interesting that you are so captivated by what happens on Good Friday, the most sad and moving day for all Catholics. Jesus Christ was Emmanuel and was unfairly judged, bones numbered, garments divided and murdered on a cross on Good Friday. If He was not the Son of Man, the I AM, then I don’t know why you would make much note of Good Friday if it is merely a Christian fairytale.

I have probably offended you, and I am sorry if you misunderstand my intent. I think of what Peter said to the Sanhedrin in Acts 4. A cripple had been healed and because of this Peter and John were brought before the council.
  • On the next day, their leaders, elders, and scribes were assembled in Jerusalem,
    6 with Annas the high priest, Caiaphas, John, Alexander, and all who were of the high-priestly class.
    7 They brought them into their presence and questioned them, “By what power or by what name have you done this?”
    8 Then Peter, filled with the holy Spirit, answered them, “Leaders of the people and elders:
    9 If we are being examined today about a good deed done to a cripple, namely, by what means he was saved,
    10 then all of you and all the people of Israel should know that it was in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarean whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead; in his name this man stands before you healed.
    11 He is ‘the stone rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.’
    12 There is no salvation through anyone else, nor is there any other name under heaven given to the human race by which we are to be saved.”
    13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and perceiving them to be uneducated, ordinary men, they were amazed, and they recognized them as the companions of Jesus.
    14 Then when they saw the man who had been cured standing there with them, they could say nothing in reply.
    15 So they ordered them to leave the Sanhedrin, and conferred with one another, saying,
    16 “What are we to do with these men? Everyone living in Jerusalem knows that a remarkable sign was done through them, and we cannot deny it.
    17 But so that it may not be spread any further among the people, let us give them a stern warning never again to speak to anyone in this name.”
    18 So they called them back and ordered them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.
    19 Peter and John, however, said to them in reply, "Whether it is right in the sight of God for us to obey you rather than God, you be the judges.
    20 It is impossible for us not to speak about what we have seen and heard."Carol’s daughter, it is impossible for me not to speak about what I have seen, heard and know to be true.*
Peace be with you always,

Kelly
 
I see now that I made a mistake; I should not have called the priest. If I am ever in such a situation again, I will not call a priest unless the person plainly requests one. Because you are right–my mother had no awareness of it anyway, and it has only been grossly misunderstood by some Catholics. So I have learned my lesson, not to be too tolerant because my actions will then be misunderstood, and I don’t want that.

I regret having done that; I will never think to do that again if such a situation again ever arises.
Is it really a mistake? You responded to an innate urging within you to have the Sacraments administered to your dying mother. Whether it be out of obligation or, possibly more deeply, urgings from God, who knows? Like you said in prior posts, you found no harm done when you called the priest. Looks like the only harm that has come from this is your fear of being misunderstood, as evident in the amount of time you have spent here trying to explain yourself.
 
😦 I’m sorry to hear about your mother passing away.I still miss my parents.My mom died in 1982 and my dad in 1996.
I don’t think you did anything wrong by calling the priest. Maybe there was some spiritual or telepathic connection between you and your mother,and you felt that since she was dying,that she
desired the consolation of her former faith when the end was near,even though she couldn’t say so.There had to be some reason you didn’t call the rabbi to pray for her in the last moments.
Who are any of us to presume to know the mind of God or His son,Jesus when it comes to the dying.Despite what others may think,there was a reason you called the priest and something prompted you to do it.never be ashamed of your actions in that moment.
 
😦 I’m sorry to hear about your mother passing away.I still miss my parents.My mom died in 1982 and my dad in 1996.
I don’t think you did anything wrong by calling the priest. Maybe there was some spiritual or telepathic connection between you and your mother,and you felt that since she was dying,that she
desired the consolation of her former faith when the end was near,even though she couldn’t say so.There had to be some reason you didn’t call the rabbi to pray for her in the last moments.
Who are any of us to presume to know the mind of God or His son,Jesus when it comes to the dying.Despite what others may think,there was a reason you called the priest and something prompted you to do it.never be ashamed of your actions in that moment.
Actually, I did call a rabbi to see her…it was my rabbi, in fact. That was when she was still aware and awake (the week before she died). He helped her say the Viddui, which is the Jewish prayer for forgiveness of sins when one is close to death.

But I also called a priest the next week…because I wanted to honor all “parts” of her, and every aspect of her entire life.

I realize how contradictory it all sounds, but considering my mom’s complicated religious background, it just made sense to me to do it that way.
 
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