My name is Peter. Please help

[Xantippe]

I think that a big part of the problem with the early years of visiting with my in-laws was that my in-laws quite naturally thought of themselves as being the parents, so during those years they didn’t do much (if any) consulting with me or my husband with regard to our preferences for how to spend our visits. I think they were just used to being the parents and making all of the scheduling decisions without (name removed by moderator)ut, even when my husband was 30+ at the time and we had two kids. It took me nearly another decade to feel confident and experienced enough that I feel like I have a right to have a say as to our schedule when we are together.

I will try to remember this in the future when I have kids-in-law.

 

[UbiCaritas]

Do you have any hope of getting through to your husband–ever? Maybe he needs longer child-care stretches to help him get the idea? If you guys are going to have more kids, he needs to get used to spending more one-on-one time with the kid.

I also have a more hopeful addendum.

My in-laws used to live in a far-out suburb with huge lots and nothing within reasonable walking distance but a playground (20+ minutes?) and a coffee shop (30 minutes?) with (as I recall) practically no sidewalks. Problem is, that area is famous for chilly rain, so on any Christmas visit, we were guaranteed to be locked up at home. It was almost OK during the summer. We rarely went to the Cool Big City, because it was a very far out suburb.

However, the good news is that my in-laws recently bought a lovely close-in home within long walking and close driving distance of many of the amenities in Cool Big City. I haven’t seen it yet, but it’s everything I would have loved during the Christmas Jail years. Also, this past visit, they put the big kids into a half-day sailing camp and they had all sorts of scheduled activities for the kids. (Big Girl was exhausted. Middle Kid LOVED it.) So, they obviously learned a lot from having full-responsibility for the big kids the previous summer.

Every month or so, I take part of a Saturday to myself and leave DD with DH for 4-5 hours or thereabouts. She absolutely adores her daddy, and vice versa. I go to Adoration and/or Confession, then shopping and lunch on my own.

The thing is, he has an absolutely atrocious short-term memory. Always has. So, for example, I can say before I leave “DD will need a smoothie at X time; I’ve made it up, and all you have to do is give her the sippy cup that’s on the second shelf of the fridge. Then she’ll need a diaper change, and you can put her down for a nap. When she gets up, she’ll need a snack; I’ve set out crackers, cheese, and fruit in this container.”

He’ll then forget about either the smoothie or the snack. Not maliciously, but because he simply doesn’t remember. If I write a schedule down for him with times and what to do, he’ll forget to look at the schedule. If I set an alarm on his phone, he’ll forget what the alarm is for. He insists, and his parents have mentioned it separately, that it’s always been this way with him. I honestly don’t know (seriously, how can anyone survive long-term like this?), but he’s not prone to lying, so I choose to believe him.

Then I’ll come home, and the snack, if she got it, will be smeared all over the kitchen or living room, he’ll have left plates and food wrappers on the floor, DD may well have gotten into the trash can, and she may or may not have actually napped, no one knows, because DH will have forgotten to get the baby monitor out of the bedroom so that he can hear when she wakes up, and she’ll probably be hangry. I’ll spend an hour or more cleaning the mess and DD, and changing/feeding DD, which does not leave me in an especially pleasant mood because I don’t like walking into a crisis as soon as I get home.

I used to have a “me” activity I did every Saturday morning, but I gave it up at the end of the last season because I couldn’t stay caught up on the house repairs and chores while being gone every Saturday morning.

Insofar as more kids, I’m pregnant right now. If this baby makes it (I had a miscarriage two months ago), I’ll be very glad indeed; I want DD to have a sibling closeish in age, and yes, I’ve got serious baby fever. However, from a common-sense perspective, I’ve come to realize in the last few weeks that unless something changes drastically that’s going to have to be it for a long time. We wanted a big family, but he’s not doing a whole lot to show that he’ll help with a big family. As it is, he spends most weekends watching TV and gaming while I clean, take care of the toddler, and fix stuff around the house.

The thing is, he grew up in a messy, disorganized house, so he sees most of the cleaning and fixing as not being necessary. To him, they’re leisure activities because they aren’t required; if I choose to do them, that’s my choice, but he’s not going to do something unnecessary that he doesn’t enjoy on the weekends just because I do. And he grew up in a really big family, there was always someone for everyone to play with, so the kids were, I suspect, a bit less demanding of mom than only-first-child DD, and thus he doesn’t think one has to entertain kids. Probably truer when there are more than one, but that’s not the case here, at least, not yet.

ETA: I think there’s a possibility that his perspective may change after I have the “I’m at the end of my rope, I can’t balance any more kids with the workload I’m carrying, so either you pick up some of it or we avoid for 4-5 years” talk. That may shock him. I’m not pinning all my hopes on it, but it just might, as it’s really important to him to have a big family. I’m not trying to use this as some sort of blackmail: I honestly don’t see how I can chase multiple toddlers and handle a newborn while trying, for example, to rebuild a toilet that’s decided to run all the time.

 

[Xantippe]

Every month or so, I take part of a Saturday to myself and leave DD with DH for 4-5 hours or thereabouts. She absolutely adores her daddy, and vice versa. I go to Adoration and/or Confession, then shopping and lunch on my own.

The thing is, he has an absolutely atrocious short-term memory. Always has. So, for example, I can say before I leave “DD will need a smoothie at X time; I’ve made it up, and all you have to do is give her the sippy cup that’s on the second shelf of the fridge. Then she’ll need a diaper change, and you can put her down for a nap. When she gets up, she’ll need a snack; I’ve set out crackers, cheese, and fruit in this container.”

He’ll then forget about either the smoothie or the snack. Not maliciously, but because he simply doesn’t remember. If I write a schedule down for him with times and what to do, he’ll forget to look at the schedule. If I set an alarm on his phone, he’ll forget what the alarm is for. He insists, and his parents have mentioned it separately, that it’s always been this way with him. I honestly don’t know (seriously, how can anyone survive long-term like this?), but he’s not prone to lying, so I choose to believe him.

Then I’ll come home, and the snack, if she got it, will be smeared all over the kitchen or living room, he’ll have left plates and food wrappers on the floor, DD may well have gotten into the trash can, and she may or may not have actually napped, no one knows, because DH will have forgotten to get the baby monitor out of the bedroom so that he can hear when she wakes up, and she’ll probably be hangry. I’ll spend an hour or more cleaning the mess and DD, and changing/feeding DD, which does not leave me in an especially pleasant mood because I don’t like walking into a crisis as soon as I get home.

I used to have a “me” activity I did every Saturday morning, but I gave it up at the end of the last season because I couldn’t stay caught up on the house repairs and chores while being gone every Saturday morning.

Insofar as more kids, I’m pregnant right now. If this baby makes it (I had a miscarriage two months ago), I’ll be very glad indeed; I want DD to have a sibling closeish in age, and yes, I’ve got serious baby fever. However, from a common-sense perspective, I’ve come to realize in the last few weeks that unless something changes drastically that’s going to have to be it for a long time. We wanted a big family, but he’s not doing a whole lot to show that he’ll help with a big family. As it is, he spends most weekends watching TV and gaming while I clean, take care of the toddler, and fix stuff around the house.

The thing is, he grew up in a messy, disorganized house, so he sees most of the cleaning and fixing as not being necessary. To him, they’re leisure activities because they aren’t required; if I choose to do them, that’s my choice, but he’s not going to do something unnecessary that he doesn’t enjoy on the weekends just because I do. And he grew up in a really big family, there was always someone for everyone to play with, so the kids were, I suspect, a bit less demanding of mom than only-first-child DD, and thus he doesn’t think one has to entertain kids. Probably truer when there are more than one, but that’s not the case here, at least, not yet.

ETA: I think there’s a possibility that his perspective may change after I have the “I’m at the end of my rope, I can’t balance any more kids with the workload I’m carrying, so either you pick up some of it or we avoid for 4-5 years” talk. That may shock him. I’m not pinning all my hopes on it, but it just might, as it’s really important to him to have a big family. I’m not trying to use this as some sort of blackmail: I honestly don’t see how I can chase multiple toddlers and handle a newborn while trying, for example, to rebuild a toilet that’s decided to run all the time.

That’s not blackmail–that’s just facts.

I think he will probably do better with children of an age to say, “Daddy, I would like a peanut butter sandwich and water in the yellow sippy” or “Daddy! Let’s play Monopoly!”

 

[UbiCaritas]

That’s not blackmail–that’s just facts.

I think he will probably do better with children of an age to say, “Daddy, I would like a peanut butter sandwich and water in the yellow sippy” or “Daddy! Let’s play Monopoly!”

I agree entirely. As it is, he’s already much better than he was when she was an infant. Now he can play with her and do fun stuff. Like I said, she adores him; she’ll snuggle with him on the couch while he’s watching sports and such, and bring him toys to play with with her. It’s really heartwarming.

 

[UbiCaritas]

It’ll also help when she’s less prone to doing really stupid but normal babyish things. For example, she’s recently discovered the fun of digging into an early-morning poopy diaper. If I get up there fast enough, she generally doesn’t, but it’s happened a couple of times in the last couple of weeks. When it does, I bathe her, wash the bedding and PJs, and scrub down the bed.

DH honestly might not even notice. I have visions of poo smeared all over the room/house if he handled mornings. gag If he did notice, I think he’d do the right thing in cleaning up, but he doesn’t notice smells or messes like I do.

So yeah…once she hits the more intelligent stage where at least she’s not fingerpainting in bodily fluids, I think things will improve.

 

[Trident_H]

In reading this, I worry that I probably come across as not liking the in-laws.

Nope. I think you’re painting a pretty fair picture. I think it’s very generous in not pinning blame. You must be an angel of patience. I just can’t imagine. I just can’t.

Hope you don’t mind me eaves-dropping on your and Xiantippe’s now apparently private thread. I like her humor. And I often find some really clever things she’s thrown into the middle of an otherwise normal post.

And I’m starting to really like your fair nature. You’ve got a way of complaining that puts no one at fault. It’s a thing you do. It’s good.

And for a guy like me? I’m learning heaps. So carry on. I’m not really here.

Peace UbiCaritas. And Xiantippe too. Take care of those kids. And keep training those DHs. They might get it. One day.

-Trident

 

[pensmama87]

I agree entirely. As it is, he’s already much better than he was when she was an infant. Now he can play with her and do fun stuff. Like I said, she adores him; she’ll snuggle with him on the couch while he’s watching sports and such, and bring him toys to play with with her. It’s really heartwarming.

I think for men who don’t do primary childcare, it takes a lot longer for it to click.

We are reaching a point now where DH is finally, finally getting it. I may have had to point out to him that for all his complaining about my parents’ house (hoarding disaster almost good enough for TV), he sure shares a lot of the same behaviors (not picking up trash, not doing dirty dishes or sweeping up crumbs, not doing laundry, etc.) It only gets highlighted when I’m down (sick, postpartum recovery). But I told him he is not allowed to talk about my parents for being gross when the only thing separating him from them is me doing the housework.

In his case, he grew up in a very clean home but had very little responsibility (and there was a lot less mess because he was an only child, both his parents worked, and for a long time they had hired housework help.)

I do have a binder I keep. It is titled “Pensfamily Household Management,” but the real title should be, “If pensmama dies, here’s how to avoid killing the kids and/or burning the house down.” Like you said, though, it depends on him remembering it’s there…

 

[Xantippe]

Nope. I think you’re painting a pretty fair picture. I think it’s very generous in not pinning blame. You must be an angel of patience. I just can’t imagine. I just can’t.

Hope you don’t mind me eaves-dropping on your and Xiantippe’s now apparently private thread. I like her humor. And I often find some really clever things she’s thrown into the middle of an otherwise normal post.

And I’m starting to really like your fair nature. You’ve got a way of complaining that puts no one at fault. It’s a thing you do. It’s good.

And for a guy like me? I’m learning heaps. So carry on. I’m not really here.

Peace UbiCaritas. And Xiantippe too. Take care of those kids. And keep training those DHs. They might get it. One day.

-Trident

Have a good day!

My husband does a lot, but we both had a lot of learning to do in our 20s. Fortunately, we were able to do it in our very own home…

 

[Xantippe]

I think for men who don’t do primary childcare, it takes a lot longer for it to click.

We are reaching a point now where DH is finally, finally getting it. I may have had to point out to him that for all his complaining about my parents’ house (hoarding disaster almost good enough for TV), he sure shares a lot of the same behaviors (not picking up trash, not doing dirty dishes or sweeping up crumbs, not doing laundry, etc.) It only gets highlighted when I’m down (sick, postpartum recovery). But I told him he is not allowed to talk about my parents for being gross when the only thing separating him from them is me doing the housework.

In his case, he grew up in a very clean home but had very little responsibility (and there was a lot less mess because he was an only child, both his parents worked, and for a long time they had hired housework help.)

My dad complained bitterly about my mom’s housekeeping when I was growing up. It was only a few years back that it finally clicked for me that while he did have a picture in his head of what a clean home should look like (his mom was and is a phenomenal housekeeper) he had no idea of what goes into achieving that. I’m pretty sure my dad has (or at least had) the idea that once you clean something, it stays clean.

 

[pensmama87]

My dad complained bitterly about my mom’s housekeeping when I was growing up. It was only a few years back that it finally clicked for me that while he did have a picture in his head of what a clean home should look like (his mom was and is a phenomenal housekeeper) he had no idea of what goes into achieving that. ** I’m pretty sure my dad has (or at least had) the idea that once you clean something, it stays clean**.

A couple days before baby #3 arrived, I actually had some free time, so I decided to wash our windows and porch door, the latter completely covered in fingerprints. Later in the day I found the 2 year old licking the door and admiring his tongue markings on the glass.

 

[jmjZelie]

A couple days before baby #3 arrived, I actually had some free time, so I decided to wash our windows and porch door, the latter completely covered in fingerprints. Later in the day I found the 2 year old licking the door and admiring his tongue markings on the glass.

But Mom, you provided him with a blank canvas. Surely you don’t expect an artist to ignore a blank canvas when he has a masterpiece to make!

 

[pensmama87]

But Mom, you provided him with a blank canvas. Surely you don’t expect an artist to ignore a blank canvas when he has a masterpiece to make!

True!

(And he was so blissfully happy doing it, too - though maybe I should have realized sooner that the quiet meant trouble! )

 

[jmjZelie]

True!

(And he was so blissfully happy doing it, too - though maybe I should have realized sooner that the quiet meant trouble! )

The worst is when they do tongue-painting and finger-painting with peanut butter or syrup. Don’t ask me why I know that…

 

[MarkInOregon]

(Edited on second thought to remove uncharitable comments. They weren’t about any of the posters here. )

I’m open to suggestions. I’m not willing to spank her; while I’m not opposed to spanking in all circumstances, I have a history of physical abuse in my family, and that coupled with my short temper does not make for a good mix with spanking. I’m genuinely afraid that if I ever allowed myself to spank her, I’d go too far.

She’s too young to understand about time-outs. The concept of “stay in one spot” just isn’t there yet. If it were, I’d use time-outs/a naughty seat. I think she’s still a few months off from that, though.

The best I’ve come up with is perhaps setting up a playpen and using it like “baby jail” for this sort of behavior, but I’m not sure that that will teach her self-control, since she’s physically restrained in it. I could be wrong. This parenting thing is hard.

Didn’t have spanking in mind, nor time outs–nor really “discipline”. I’d suggest it’s ok for them to cry a bit. If you pick them up every time they cry it reinforces the behavior. If she will sit next to dad and play without crying–there is no reason why she can’t sit next to you and do the same thing–that’s all I am saying–she’s not too young to learn that. And I’m surprised to read that you don’t have a playpen and would talk about using it as a “baby jail”–is there a movement out there that views playpens as bad now? We always viewed them as a place where our child could play safely so we could get one or two things done around the house.

Not to suggest that parenting isn’t hard, but I think we tend to make it harder than it needs to be and often want to over analyze things. Kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I think most parents today are afraid to let their kids struggle with or fail at anything–and I think studies are showing that this is not good for them when they go off to college or enter the real world. I can’t believe how many parents in my middle schooler’s class – micro manage and assist with class projects–i.e. the project looks more like the parents work than the students. We had a teacher couple of years ago who made the students do the projects in class and I thought some of the parents heads were going to explode–first time my kids project looked as good or better than the other kids.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[MarkInOregon]

As it is, he spends most weekends watching TV and gaming while I clean, take care of the toddler, and fix stuff around the house.

Perhaps the TV and gaming garbage could “break” and perhaps you wouldn’t have time to repair it? I’m sorry–and I know we’re only seeing your side of the story, but your not his mother–he’s a husband and a father now–his sitting watching TV while you fix things around the house – well it’s what kids do in our entitled age–not husbands and parents. I will bow out now.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

 

[Xantippe]

Not to suggest that parenting isn’t hard, but I think we tend to make it harder than it needs to be and often want to over analyze things. Kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I think most parents today are afraid to let their kids struggle with or fail at anything–and I think studies are showing that this is not good for them when they go off to college or enter the real world. I can’t believe how many parents in my middle schooler’s class – micro manage and assist with class projects–i.e. the project looks more like the parents work than the students. We had a teacher couple of years ago who made the students do the projects in class and I thought some of the parents heads were going to explode–first time my kids project looked as good or better than the other kids.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

This is off-topic, but those middle school and elementary class projects aren’t actually intended to be 100% the child’s work. At a minimum, the kid isn’t driving to Michaels, right?

I used to be very deep into the math wars, and that was the conclusion of the parents–that the intent of a lot of modern elementary and middle school pedagogy is to remove learning and work from the classroom and send it home. So it’s all fun at school and all work at home. That’s how it works in a lot of “good” suburban public schools.

 

[Xantippe]

Perhaps the TV and gaming garbage could “break” and perhaps you wouldn’t have time to repair it? I’m sorry–and I know we’re only seeing your side of the story, but your not his mother–he’s a husband and a father now–his sitting watching TV while you fix things around the house – well it’s what kids do in our entitled age–not husbands and parents. I will bow out now.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

It’s not totally heinous if he is doing a reasonable job watching the baby while UbiCaritas is doing a project. It’s a not unreasonable division of labor that somebody does a home task while the other watches the kids.

I think it often does take a while to figure out what household responsibilities there are and how to equitably divvy them up. It’s especially a problem if he doesn’t see the stuff that UbiCaritas is doing as being necessary. (When my husband and I were employed newlyweds, I viewed housecleaning as something to be done before we had company. Husband viewed it as something to do…never. We’ve both made a lot of progress since then.)

I think I would suggest (especially once she’s further along in her pregnancy), moving discrete tasks that he views as necessary onto his plate. For instance, dishwashing has been my husband’s gig ever since the point in my second pregnancy where I was so big that I couldn’t reach the sink.

Also, UbiCaritas and her husband are (from her description of their rate of savings) very close to the point where they should seriously consider outsourcing heavy cleaning. Even once-a-month cleaning help could eliminate a lot of friction and keep the grime at bay. Also, it would free up time for her furniture work.

 

[bitterhope]

Didn’t have spanking in mind, nor time outs–nor really “discipline”. I’d suggest it’s ok for them to cry a bit. If you pick them up every time they cry it reinforces the behavior. If she will sit next to dad and play without crying–there is no reason why she can’t sit next to you and do the same thing–that’s all I am saying–she’s not too young to learn that. And I’m surprised to read that you don’t have a playpen and would talk about using it as a “baby jail”–is there a movement out there that views playpens as bad now? We always viewed them as a place where our child could play safely so we could get one or two things done around the house.

Not to suggest that parenting isn’t hard, but I think we tend to make it harder than it needs to be and often want to over analyze things. Kids are much more resilient than we give them credit for. I think most parents today are afraid to let their kids struggle with or fail at anything–and I think studies are showing that this is not good for them when they go off to college or enter the real world. I can’t believe how many parents in my middle schooler’s class – micro manage and assist with class projects–i.e. the project looks more like the parents work than the students. We had a teacher couple of years ago who made the students do the projects in class and I thought some of the parents heads were going to explode–first time my kids project looked as good or better than the other kids.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

You have a lot of wisdom. I’ve read what you’ve said in this thread and you speak with the voice of reason so often missing in this society. Thank you for everything you wrote here.

 

[pianistclare]

Perhaps the TV and gaming garbage could “break” and perhaps you wouldn’t have time to repair it? I’m sorry–and I know we’re only seeing your side of the story, but your not his mother–he’s a husband and a father now–his sitting watching TV while you fix things around the house – well it’s what kids do in our entitled age–not husbands and parents. I will bow out now.

The peace of Christ,
Mark

I think this is good.
The time for him to shape up is NOW, not when it reaches critical mass. Because all that will happen is he’ll (rightly) say:
but honey…you were ok with it for before? Wha’ happened?

The re-training should begin now.
We see a lot of threads where mom is about to expire. Literally. And all because the hubs didn’t “realize” how hard it is to raise children. And that mama just can’t do EVERYTHING unaided.
Moms can accomplish a lot. But they can also go down, and become ill or depressed very quickly without at least some support from the hubs.
There’s many posters here who are blindly and proudly carrying the torch of motherhood!
And they’re bitter, angry, depressed, and exhausted.
UbiCaritas has some wonderful comments here. She’s a great mom. I’d hate to see her go down the rabbit hole and buy into that notion that you can be all things to all people ALL the time. People do it yes. Is it recommended? NO. Our faith certainly does not advocate this. Parents. Plural.

 

[MarkInOregon]

This is off-topic, but those middle school and elementary class projects aren’t actually intended to be 100% the child’s work. At a minimum, the kid isn’t driving to Michaels, right?

I used to be very deep into the math wars, and that was the conclusion of the parents–that the intent of a lot of modern elementary and middle school pedagogy is to remove learning and work from the classroom and send it home. So it’s all fun at school and all work at home. That’s how it works in a lot of “good” suburban public schools.

Probably shouldn’t be out driving–it’s not the farm back in the 50’s. Not saying the kid should be out purchasing the supplies but I do think the project should be predominantly their work and not mine. I don’t mind providing guidance and direction but the work should be theirs–at least in my opinion. I’m just amused by the parents who act like an S- in second grade is going to kill their kids chance of getting into a Catholic high school or college.

The peace of Christ,
Mark