My Opinion: No Piercing At Jesus' Side

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Hi

Well I don’t remember anybody said here that about Jesus or Mary. Kindly quote if somebody said that. I don’t think so. Please be patient as Catholics are supposed to be, in my opinion.

i love Jesus, Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks
paarsurrey, I agree that the Catholics here should be more patient with you and with Ben Masada. I think sometimes we forget (if we ever really knew) how our Faith looks to people who don’t follow it.

When I was an atheist I thought all religions (not just Christianity, but also Islam and Judaism) were fake and stupid. This thread would be held up as an example of how all religious people cling to their beliefs against all reason - and they would ridicule you and Ben as well as us Catholics.

We all need to try to put ourselves in each other’s shoes and try to see how our own religion might look to someone who is not familiar with it. And we all need to try and be more patient - and not assume that the other person is “evil” or “blasphemous” simply because they can’t see what we see. 🙂

(And by the way, before anyone else says it, paarsurrey and Ben Masada, I hope you will be more patient with us as well, for the same reasons. 👍 )
 
The opposite is true Ridgerunner; if the Romans were on the habit to do this to rush or to check if a crucified was dead or not, I could give it a shot and believe Jesus’ spear-piercing. But it was not a Roman custom and they wouldn’t give a damn to do this. They didn’t care the least if the Jews would get annoyed with Jews hanging from crosses on the Sabbath. Sorry Ridgerunner, but it didn’t happen.

Ben: 🤷
It was not just a question of jews getting annoyed with seeing bodies on crosses on the sabbath, it was more practical or prosaic than that, Joseph was given *permission *to take the body from the cross, the body died sooner than was expected because of the severity of its injuries, Joseph arrived to remove the body, did the romans care? no. Their orders were to see the prisoners executed, dead, - and as you say it made no difference to them how long the bodies remained on the cross or what day it was, so they did not care if someone arrived with authorizaton to take the body then, just so so long as they knew it was dead.

As far as I can remember the roman guard was placed on Jesus on the cross as well as on his tomb. The guards only function was to ensure Jesus was not removed from the cross until his dead body either rotted or was disposed of. Joseph hurried the situation along by requesting the body, the guard could not release the body without knowing it was dead.
Everyone there saw Jesus die, breaking his legs, after Josephs request for the body, would have been a waste of effort to someone who had watched his charge die. Just before his body was released to those who would remove it the guard did the most obvious thing in the world, reach up with his spear and pierce the heart. Only at that stage was the guards job finished, the prisoner was dead before being removed from the cross. The guards only two orders are the most normal sensible orders a military authority would give; guard the prisoners, kill them before leaving your post.
I’m sure you have seen old footage of soldiers, of many countries, on the battlefield driving a bayonet into each body on the field after battle. Romans were no different. They did not build an Empire by being inefficient or stupid.
 
Blood and water.

St. John, Ch. 19.
There was a pathologist, possibly from New York, who had examined hundreds if not thousands of corpses, and it was his medical opinion that the (heart?) blood of a person who has died in extreme agony separates into blood and blood plasma. Blood plasma, I read, makes up about 55% of total blood volume, and about 90% of blood plasma is water.
So I am taking it that both blood and water flowed from the wound to his heart, in quantities.
 
The blood on the Shroud and the Sudarium of Oviedo (head cloth) have been tested, and are both the same type. Also, the blood stains on both indicate that the wounds match.

I do not know if the spear has been tested, but, I would imagine that the soldier cleaned his spear many times after then, and no blood would have survived.

God Bless
Hi

May be I am mistaken; but I saw a mention of blood with the spear, kindly help me if I have understood wrongly. English is not my mother tongue, please:

newadvent.org/cathen/08773a.htm

This seems to show that the legend which assigns this name to the soldier (who, according to the same tradition, was healed of ophthalmia and **converted by a drop of the precious blood **spurting from the wound) is as old as the sixth century. And further it is tempting, even if rash, to conjecture that the name Logginos, or Logchinos is in some way connected with the lance (logche).

newadvent.org/cathen/08773a.htm

I love Jesus , Mary and Second Coming 1835-1908

Thanks
 
There was a pathologist, possibly from New York, who had examined hundreds if not thousands of corpses, and it was his medical opinion that the (heart?) blood of a person who has died in extreme agony separates into blood and blood plasma. Blood plasma, I read, makes up about 55% of total blood volume, and about 90% of blood plasma is water.
So I am taking it that both blood and water flowed from the wound to his heart, in quantities.
I’m not sure the following is any different from what the pathologist was saying. I’m not a physician, so I would not contest what he says, even if I might seem to.

My understanding is that a crucified person’s auxiliary breathing muscles would go into tetany after hanging for any significant period of time, thus requiring a great deal of difficulty in breathing due to the position of the person on the cross. Diaphragmatic breathing was difficult in any possible position the victim could attain. In attempting to avoid asphyxiation, the person would try to raise himself up so he could employ his chest muculature. But it was precarious, not to mention painful, because he could not fully straighten his legs. They would go into spasm and he would slump down again. The process would repeat, over and over, which is what made it such a terribly torturous way to die.

Eventually, the difficulty in breathing, elevated blood pressure and difficulties in returning blood through the heart (in which dehydration would also play a part) would cause ascites, which is the collection of serum in the interstitial space. That’s why people with congestive heart failure often have bloated-looking stomachs. Ultimately the person crucified would die of congestive heart failure. If the person’s legs were broken, it would accelerate the process because he could no longer raise himself up to breathe with his chest muscles and relieve stressed diaphragmatic breathing.

A standard Roman military killing technique was to stab a person through the diaphragm and into the heart with a blow from the side; the blade passing below the level of the rib cage near the sternum, through the diaphragm and into the heart with an upwart slant. In war, that blow was delivered with a short sword, and was immediately disabling and invariably deadly if done successfully. Roman soldiers were trained in anatomy and knew exactly how to inflict the various “field manual” wounds, of which there were several.

If a person with ascites is stabbed in that manner, whether by a sword in an eye-to-eye level encounter, or from somewhat below by a spear if one is somewhat elevated, watery serum will flow out copiously from the interstitial space and out the wound. Some blood will also flow, but if the person is already dead, most of the flow will be serum due to its ready availability to the wound site and the relatively greater pressure it is under.

Now, if gospel writers reported “blood and water” flowing from the wound, they had to know quite a bit about crucifixion even to invent the story, or they had to have seen it or been told of the events by an eyewitness. If they knew neither, they would have had no reason to expect serum (“water”) to have flowed from the wound. Given the knowledge of biomechanics at the time, no one would have thought to simply invent that detail out of the whole cloth.

I realize none of the above proves the veracity of the NT, and particularly not to one who wants to pick the NT apart for his own religious or non-religious purposes. But the account is biomechanically quite plausible; and, in itself, hardly demonstrates the falsity of the gospels.
 
It was not just a question of jews getting annoyed with seeing bodies on crosses on the sabbath, it was more practical or prosaic than that, Joseph was given *permission *to take the body from the cross, the body died sooner than was expected because of the severity of its injuries, Joseph arrived to remove the body, did the romans care? no. Their orders were to see the prisoners executed, dead, - and as you say it made no difference to them how long the bodies remained on the cross or what day it was, so they did not care if someone arrived with authorizaton to take the body then, just so so long as they knew it was dead.

As far as I can remember the roman guard was placed on Jesus on the cross as well as on his tomb. The guards only function was to ensure Jesus was not removed from the cross until his dead body either rotted or was disposed of. Joseph hurried the situation along by requesting the body, the guard could not release the body without knowing it was dead.
Everyone there saw Jesus die, breaking his legs, after Josephs request for the body, would have been a waste of effort to someone who had watched his charge die. Just before his body was released to those who would remove it the guard did the most obvious thing in the world, reach up with his spear and pierce the heart. Only at that stage was the guards job finished, the prisoner was dead before being removed from the cross. The guards only two orders are the most normal sensible orders a military authority would give; guard the prisoners, kill them before leaving your post.
I’m sure you have seen old footage of soldiers, of many countries, on the battlefield driving a bayonet into each body on the field after battle. Romans were no different. They did not build an Empire by being inefficient or stupid.
First of all, there is nowhere in the Gospels that a guard of Romans stayed on the Calvary to watch the bodies till they were dead.

Second, if there were Romans up there to make sure the crucified were dead before being taken off the crosses, there would be no use for Joseph of Arimathea to ask Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross. (Mark 15:42-47)

Third, Josephus says that some of the crucified would remain from two to even four days on the crosses till they met death. It means that after only two or three hours on the cross, the chances that Jesus was alive when Jospeh took him off were as high as 90 percent.

Fourth, the Centurion and his soldiers would not cause any more pain to Jesus after their confession that Jesus was the son of God in Matthew 27:54.

And last but not least, I wouldn’t bet too much on the cleverness of the Romans because they must have felt quite stupid after they found out that they had watched an empty tomb during that Sabbath after the crucifixion.

Ben: 😃
 
There is another part to the story that you folks are ignoring.

Why was Jesus crucified? Because some Jewish leaders forced Pilot into it by making it look like a riot was at hand if he was not. Now, is it totally illogical for those same people, since they already had the mob assembled, to make it seem like leaving the bodies on the cross would cause another riot?

Now, let’s say that is true. Pilot would have ordered the men to make sure they were dead. Breathing on a cross is next to impossible the longer you are up there. Jesus was not moving anymore, so they could assume that he was dead. The spear was shoved into him, and the resulting blood and water were separate, proving he was dead.

And, on a more personal note, I am SICK AND TIRED of people on here calling the early Christians liers. You people disgust me with your willingness to degrade the fore-fathers of my faith so you can embrace heresy and follow heathens. Peter, John, Jesus’s mother Mary have all been called LIERS by you people. You have no respect for them at all. Over and over we see that you people HATE those who loved Jesus. That is all I am going to say on the matter.
And I have only two things to tell you: First is that nobody would force Pilate into crucifying a Jew, because, according to Josephus, Pilate was so cruel that for more than several times he would provoke the Jews just to have a reason to crucify some of them.

You said the above for two reasons: Because you don’t read Josephus and because you have assimilated the antisemitic attitude to transfer the blame for the death of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews.

The other thing I need to tell you is that the real people who hate Jesus, Mary and Joseph are those who claim that Jesus was what he was not, starting with the virgin birth, which has caused a lot of shame to the whole family of Jesus among the Agnostics, who are only ready to assign to Jesus a Roman for a father.

Ben: 😊
 
I’m not sure the following is any different from what the pathologist was saying. I’m not a physician, so I would not contest what he says, even if I might seem to.

My understanding is that a crucified person’s …
The pathologist bit was from memory, I’m afraid, and I agree with you. Heres another bit I found in my wanderings, for anyone interested, it means, really, that a body needs to be already dead for the blood to separate into blood and blood plasma, (a watery type stuff).
The authors of the crucifixion account already told us that Jesus was dead and then went on to describe the physical realities of the lance piercing His side and blood and water flowing…

Anyway, heres the other bit;

The Rupture of the Heart Muscle
The wound in Jesus’ right side was over half an inch wide and one and three quarters of an inch long. By analyzing it, along with the traces of considerable bleeding and fluid discharge which accumilated in the pleural cavity, scientists have been able to ascertain the cause of death as rupture of the heart muscle due to cardiac arrest. this is turn would have precipitated a massive hemorrhaging into the pericardium (about two quarts of blood), and thence into the lungs, causing hemopericardia.
A violent rupture of the pericardium due to a high build up of blood would have resulted in a paralyzing pain in the sternum area. Jesus uttered a sudden shout and died. “And Jesus cried once again with a loud voice and yielded up his spirit”.
A violent death occurring in a state of full consciousness and extreme exhaustion usually precipitates a stiffening of the body (rigor mortis).

A Pierced Heart
Soon after Jesus’ death, the blood in the pericardium would have separated into red corpuscles (accumulation in the lower part of the pleural cavity) and blood plasma (remaining in the upper part). When His chest was pierced by the Centurion’s lance, both fluids flowed out, first the red corpuscles, then the blood plasma, i.e. “blood and water” as described in John 19:34.
 
The Blessed Mother, Martha, Mary Magdalene, and John the Evangelist.

That’s 4 eyewitnesses.

Why do you believe the Old Testament so readily, but dismiss the New Testament? We know far more about the provenance of the New Testament. Also, we know three of the four Evangelists suffered martyrdom (and they tried to martyr John, but the Lord saved him) rather than recant their Gospel teachings.

God Bless
The blessed Mother and Mary Magdalene were indeed there but they had nothing to say about Jesus being spear-pierced on his side. John was not there. But even if he was, he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. Go back and look for at least two witnesses because you still don’t have them. I am sorry.

Ben: 😃
 
** It is written in the gospel that the soldier pierced the body of Jesus. So every one has to believe that. Otherwise that may not be true. With the Centurian present there, no soldier could act on his own to do any damage o Jesus.

Does any one say that piercing killed Jesus? Please reply**.
No the piercing didn’t kill Jesus. The OP’s question is whether or not the piercing happened, which it did. History is on the “piercing” side and there is no evidence that supports the notion that Jesus was never pierced.
 
First of all, there is nowhere in the Gospels that a guard of Romans stayed on the Calvary to watch the bodies till they were dead.

Second, if there were Romans up there to make sure the crucified were dead before being taken off the crosses, there would be no use for Joseph of Arimathea to ask Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross. (Mark 15:42-47)

Third, Josephus says that some of the crucified would remain from two to even four days on the crosses till they met death. It means that after only two or three hours on the cross, the chances that Jesus was alive when Jospeh took him off were as high as 90 percent.

Fourth, the Centurion and his soldiers would not cause any more pain to Jesus after their confession that Jesus was the son of God in Matthew 27:54.

And last but not least, I wouldn’t bet too much on the cleverness of the Romans because they must have felt quite stupid after they found out that they had watched an empty tomb during that Sabbath after the crucifixion.

Ben: 😃
This really is forcing one’s point of view. Obviously, the gospels record Roman soldiers present at Jesus’ death, and they clearly acted to accelerate the deaths of the other two. If they were responsible to ensure the deaths of those crucified, you can be sure they carried it out. Failure to carry out one’s mission was very harshly dealt with in the Roman army.

If it was, indeed, the custom to leave bodies on crosses for extended periods after death, then obviously Joseph of A. would have asked permission to do it earlier. His doing so in no way demonstrates that Jesus was still alive. Crucifixion was an official Roman act, and you didn’t interfere at all with what the Romans were doing in their official capacities. You didn’t even chance it, or you might find yourself on a cross of your own.

Jesus was scourged prior to being crucified, meaning that he would have suffered blood loss; perhaps very substantial blood loss. That would have hastened congestive heart failure because it impedes circulation in and of itself. Perhaps one who doubts that one could die after a few hours of crucifixion might want to give it a short try to see just how terribly the body reacts to it. That being said, it would be possible to extend or shorten the survival period in a number of ways, just as there is, for example, with a hanging. If the Romans knew they had to get the job done before sundown, they could have managed it.

There is nothing in the gospels that says ALL of the Romans present became persuaded Jesus was the Son of God prior to his death, or that there was no exchange of soldiers in the interim. Furthermore, even if they did, and if they knew he was dead, and if they knew they, themselves would likely be executed if they failed to carry out orders and ensure His death, they would not have caused him any suffering by stabbing His body. Roman soldiers were “experts at death”. Their lives depended on that expertise. They knew He was dead.

Nor is there any particular reason to believe the soldiers guarding the tomb watched an empty tomb at any time. They were not there, as far as we can surmise, sometime the following morning. But we really don’t even know that.
 
First of all, there is nowhere in the Gospels that a guard of Romans stayed on the Calvary to watch the bodies till they were dead.

This was no ordinary body, the romans could find no reason to kill Him, but yet they were forced to kill Him by some body or bodies…
Anyway, there was a roman guard, a centurian … MK 15 39 And the centurion who stood over against him, …
Second, if there were Romans up there to make sure the crucified were dead before being taken off the crosses, there would be no use for Joseph of Arimathea to ask Pilate for permission to remove Jesus from the cross. (Mark 15:42-47)
They did what they could.
When angels can release Apostles from high security prisons, it is hardly surprising that they can release Jesus from a tomb.
Even clever people can be blind. The Egyptian Pharoah did not become Pharoah because he was stupid but you believe he was blinded to something.
 
The blessed Mother and Mary Magdalene were indeed there but they had nothing to say about Jesus being spear-pierced on his side. John was not there. But even if he was, he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. Go back and look for at least two witnesses because you still don’t have them. I am sorry.

Ben: 😃
Yes, St. John was there, and yes he wrote the 4th Gospel.

In addition, the Blessed Mother lived with St. John in Ephesus at the end of her life. Certainly he would have asked her what happened, if he wasn’t there himself.

God Bless
 
2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.

I’ve been a Christian all my life and this is the first I’ve heard of such a tradition.

Sound. as spurious as the “Jewish tradition” that the blood of Christian babies was used as making matzoth for Pesach.
That’s because this is a muslim tradition. And they must believe it to be true, otherwise their entire faith would be proven a lie. They cannot reconcile in their faith the idea the Jesus actually died on the cross. They will use all forms of twisted logic to claim it never happened.
 
I am wondering if it is worth answering as it seems that Ben’s threads are often deleted.
No Piercing At Jesus’ Side

Here are three reasons why Jesus was never pierced at his side on the cross:

1- The custom to rush the death of all the Jews crucified by the Romans was Jewish and not Roman; and the practice was done only on Fridays, so that the bodies would not be left hanging during the hours of the Sabbath. And the method was leg-breaking and not spear-piercing. The Romans wouldn’t care less if the Jewish Sabbath got desecrated by the bodies on the crosses.
On the contrary, the custom with the Roman soldiers were to either to break the legs or to pierce the side of their victims with a lance. Pilot was in trouble with the Emperor for his accesses of which he was finally removed. He would have thought it was not worth the trouble so it was easier just to do what the Jews wished.
2 - There is a tradition that the Centurion was richly bribed by Joseph of Arimathea, who was a very rich man in Israel, to just let him - Joseph - take Jesus off the cross and report back to Pilate that Jesus was indeed already dead.
People did not survive a crucifixion. It is unlikely that a Centurion could be bribed. Roman law laid the death penalty on anyone who bungled an execution.
3 - That Centurion and his men could never by their own accord pierce Jesus after their recognition that Jesus was indeed the son of God. This is for lack of any other option, a confession that they had converted themselves to the Cause of Jesus. That’s in Matthew 27:54. Besides, there was no such a Roman custome to spear-pierce a crucified to check if he was dead.
As I have already said it was the custom.
The first and third reasons dispense with any other evidence that the piercing of Jesus’ side by a Roman spear was an interpolation by either the writer of the Gospel 50+ years after Jesus had been gone or by the Fathers of the Church in 327 CE, when they selected the books into the Canon of the NT.
The amount of time before it was written is unimportant. How many years did it take for the Torah to be written? It was not in interpolation but your story is.
 
The blessed Mother and Mary Magdalene were indeed there but they had nothing to say about Jesus being spear-pierced on his side. John was not there. But even if he was, he was not the one who wrote the fourth gospel. Go back and look for at least two witnesses because you still don’t have them. I am sorry.

Ben: 😃
Did you speak to them to know that they had nothing to say?:whacky:

Just because you say they weren’t there, doesn’t mean they weren’t. You make statements. You have no witnesses to say they weren’t there. John was there. You saying he wasn’t does not make it so. Mary and her sister-in-law was there as was Mary Magdalene. I also suspect that Joseph of Arimathea was also there that makes five witnesses. If you want to claim they were not you need to substantiate it with more than your unsubstantiated statements.
 
The opposite is true Ridgerunner; if the Romans were on the habit to do this to rush or to check if a crucified was dead or not, I could give it a shot and believe Jesus’ spear-piercing. But it was not a Roman custom and they wouldn’t give a damn to do this. They didn’t care the least if the Jews would get annoyed with Jews hanging from crosses on the Sabbath. Sorry Ridgerunner, but it didn’t happen.

Ben: 🤷
The piercing happened in order to fulfill the prophecy. Jesus was the passover Lamb. The passover lamb was to be perfect, unblemished with no broken bones. Simply believing in God and His powers would enable one to have faith in the fact that Jesus was indeed pierced. Since they didn’t break his bones, which in itself was from divine prevention, they had to make sure he was dead. Hence, piercing his side.
 
Eyewitnesses! Who were they? Can you mention one at least? Don’t say there were many out there that day. No Judge on a Court of Law would accept such “there were many eyewitnesses.” Okay, under the Mosaic Law, two or more witnesses would be enough to establish a fact, and only the fourth gospel reports such a case without eyewitness. Sorry guy
because your client would be convicted without witnesses.
Let’s review: JEWISH Matthew places the Apostle John, Mary the Mother of Jesus, the centurion, Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, as well as the unnamed wife of Zebedee at the scene. Except for the centurion, all were Jews

JEWISH Mark places Salome and the Apostle John at the scene. Again, all Jews.

Syrian from Antioch Luke places the centurion and Jesus’ friends as well as the women who had accompanied Him from Galilee at the scene. Except for the centurion, all were Jews.

JEWISH John, the primary eyewitness, who remained at the foot of the cross along with Mary, the Mother of Jesus, documented the piercing. He was in the best position to view it, as was Mary, her sister, Mary the wife of Clopas as well as Mary of Magdala. All Jews.
The unusual is that it didn’t happened. You don’t know of any other case, because you have never read Josephus, who says that Pilate was so cruel that he would even provoke the Jews just to have a chance to crucify some. Another evidence that you have never read Josephus is to believe that Pilate would wash his hands to get rid of the blame for the death of Jesus. Pilate! No, not Pilate. This idea was born in the antisemitic mind of either the gospel writer or the Editors when they put together the books they needed into the Canon of the NT. The objective of this picture of Pilate by Christianity is to transfer the blame for the death of Jesus from the Romans to the Jews.
Jesus Himself prophetically spoke of His rejection by the Jews. Are you now claiming that Jesus, descended from the House of David, was anti-Semitic? Listen to yourself here.

Do you claim that the Jewish Gospel writers were anti-Semitic? This sounds like paranoia. As to the matter of blame, blame yourself for your sins as I also blame myself for my sins.

Instead of accusing without evidence, you might get further by posing your opinions as questions.

Since both groups are written of in prophecy, the only conflict here is between those who accept God’s final Covenant and those who reject it. Period.
 
Let’s review: JEWISH Matthew places the Apostle John, Mary the Mother of Jesus, the centurion, Mary of Magdala, Mary the mother of James and Joseph, as well as the unnamed wife of Zebedee at the scene. Except for the centurion, all were Jews

JEWISH Mark places Salome and the Apostle John at the scene. Again, all Jews.

Syrian from Antioch Luke places the centurion and Jesus’ friends as well as the women who had accompanied Him from Galilee at the scene. Except for the centurion, all were Jews.

JEWISH John, the primary eyewitness, who remained at the foot of the cross along with Mary, the Mother of Jesus, documented the piercing. He was in the best position to view it, as was Mary, her sister, Mary the wife of Clopas as well as Mary of Magdala. All Jews.

Jesus Himself prophetically spoke of His rejection by the Jews. Are you now claiming that Jesus, descended from the House of David, was anti-Semitic? Listen to yourself here.

Do you claim that the Jewish Gospel writers were anti-Semitic? This sounds like paranoia. As to the matter of blame, blame yourself for your sins as I also blame myself for my sins.

Instead of accusing without evidence, you might get further by posing your opinions as questions.

Since both groups are written of in prophecy, the only conflict here is between those who accept God’s final Covenant and those who reject it. Period.
That was very well said. Bravo! People will say just about anything to deny Christ no matter how intellectually dishonest it is. I think some who post here are motivated by hate.
 
As I understand it, breaking the legs of the crucified was considered an act of mercy, often requiring a payment or bribe, to hasten death, much as people would pay street kids to pull on the legs of a hanging victim in Baroque/Enlightenment England to bring death more quickly and with more dignity, and lessen the length of agony, or pay Jack Ketch for a proper knot and good neckbreaking drop, rather than a short rope and long, terrible suffering.

The spear in the side was to determine whether blood spurted or simply leaked without force, to ascertain whether actual death had occurred, and not an unusual thing. The bit about plasma/blood is right too.

The Romans were total experts at making damn sure people were both in agony,and very very dead.
 
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