My Opinion

[dang71]

prior to Pope Benedict loosening the rules on TLM, my parish was the only one in the diocese allowed to have it, so it has been celebrated at my church for years. I attended the TLM several times in my parish over the past few years and I wasn’t too impressed.

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.
2. for half of the mass, the priest doesn’t even say anything and i kept having to guess what was going on (quite a distraction)
3. all i could think was, since i am reading this english translation in the missal, and most other people at the mass were doing the same thing, why doesn’t the priest just skip the latin, have the same mass but with the english translation i am reading anyway.

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me. when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel. our religion is complicated enough, why add to the confusion and frustration by forcing people to learn another language. i agree with the need to have faithful, decent translations, but switching back to latin because some of the translated words are not to your liking is just ridiculous. if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

prior to Pope Benedict loosening the rules on TLM, my parish was the only one in the diocese allowed to have it, so it has been celebrated at my church for years. I attended the TLM several times in my parish over the past few years and I wasn’t too impressed.

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.
2. for half of the mass, the priest doesn’t even say anything and i kept having to guess what was going on (quite a distraction)
3. all i could think was, since i am reading this english translation in the missal, and most other people at the mass were doing the same thing, why doesn’t the priest just skip the latin, have the same mass but with the english translation i am reading anyway.

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me. when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel. our religion is complicated enough, why add to the confusion and frustration by forcing people to learn another language. i agree with the need to have faithful, decent translations, but switching back to latin because some of the translated words are not to your liking is just ridiculous. if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

Prepare for flogging

 

[Eilish_Maura]

big time flogging!!!

 

[scylla]

I kinda thought the same thing too, this is natural to think this way as it is built off of popular style these days and the popular beliefs of many in the Church.

I have never been to a traditional Mass so I am not one to really defend it. But on the other hand I cannot in good concience defend the Mass as it is commonly done today.
There is no defense, except an appeal to pleasure, will justify the state the liturgy is these days.

So lets not make this a comparison I would vote that we make this thread a defense of the points given against the Traditional Mass.

Is this critique something that should be addressed or is it based upon something that needs to be taught to understand and accept the presentation of the Mass.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[James0235]

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.

I think I would tend to disagree that it is the people who make the Mass reverent. They may help to contribute to the reverence.

But, ultimately it is up to the priest to make a Mass reverent or not. It is the priest who is responsible for following the rubrics, for using the proper text, for seeing that the music used is appropriate, and for catechizing the people on the correct behavior at Mass if they are not being reverent.

The priest will have much more influence on the reverence than the people.

if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

This is pretty serious. You should probably schedule an appointment with a priest as soon as possible to talk about this. If you really mean it that you would leave the Church if the Church does not offer Mass exactly as you like then seems your faith is dangerously weak.

For far too long (years - but actually 1 Sunday is too long) the only Masses I had access to were irreverent and more often than not illicit. I really think my faith was damaged at times by attending these Masses. But, even though I often dreaded the very thought of going to Mass I still went. And never had any thought of leaving the Church.

James

 

[misterbee]

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me. when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel.

My take on this. I regularly sit next to a Polish speaking guy at the TLM I attend. How do I know he’s Polish? He’s got a Polish Missal from which he can translate the entire Mass from Latin. No problem.

Now, tell me this. What if Polish-guy only had access to an English vernacular Mass? How easy would it be to understand what’s going on? Not quite as easy.

The fact of the matter is, the Apostles had the Gift of Tongues. We don’t. We can’t speak in everyone’s vernacular language - so, if we have a uniform language from which to translate - it makes it easy on everyone with a Missal who can read.

I know some may say, ‘What about the sermon? Polish-guy couldn’t understand the sermon at the TLM.’ True. But he wouldn’t understand anything at a vernacular Mass.

Others may say, ‘But non-English speakers are a minority, why cater?’ It’s not catering, it just makes sense. It would be catering if the priest gave a 4-hour long sermon just to cover all the languages spoken in the parish - the sermon is still in the dominant language.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

My take on this. I regularly sit next to a Polish speaking guy at the TLM I attend. How do I know he’s Polish? He’s got a Polish Missal from which he can translate the entire Mass from Latin. No problem.

Now, tell me this. What if Polish-guy only had access to an English vernacular Mass? How easy would it be to understand what’s going on? Not quite as easy.

I hope you are not suggesting that an OF missal in Polish would not be available if this guy wanted one.

 

[misterbee]

I hope you are not suggesting that an OF missal in Polish would not be available if this guy wanted one.

Perhaps you can point me in the direction of a English/Polish translating OF Missal. I don’t know of a single popular OF Missal that translates from one language to another. I’m sure there is a high likelihood they exist, but I’ve never seen one.

Also, while you’re finding that, find me a Spanish/Polish Missal, in case he happens upon the local Spanish-speaking church. Or, how about a Tagalog/Polish Missal in case he happens upon the local Phillipino Parish. Maybe the German/Polish Missal in the event he’s in German-town, USA.

Or. He could get a Latin/Polish Missal and be okay anywhere because Latin is the Church’s universal language.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

Perhaps you can point me in the direction of a English/Polish translating OF Missal. I don’t know of a single popular OF Missal that translates from one language to another. I’m sure there is a high likelihood they exist, but I’ve never seen one.

Also, while you’re finding that, find me a Spanish/Polish Missal, in case he happens upon the local Spanish-speaking church. Or, how about a Tagalog/Polish Missal in case he happens upon the local Phillipino Parish. Maybe the German/Polish Missal in the event he’s in German-town, USA.

Or. He could get a Latin/Polish Missal and be okay anywhere because Latin is the Church’s universal language.

Is he using the missal to learn Latin or to follow the Mass?

If it is to learn another language there are better ways – if it is to follow the mass - particularly the OF - a single language is all that is needed.

 

[latinmasslover]

prior to Pope Benedict loosening the rules on TLM, my parish was the only one in the diocese allowed to have it, so it has been celebrated at my church for years. I attended the TLM several times in my parish over the past few years and I wasn’t too impressed.

How could you not be?

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.

I’ve traveled to all over the US and to other parts of the world…I’ve seen holy priests perform the NO reverently, but *never *a reverent Mass. I find this statement *very *hard to believe, but if the NO attendees where you are located are in fact more reverent, praise God and pray for the TLMers.

1. for half of the mass, the priest doesn’t even say anything and i kept having to guess what was going on (quite a distraction).

No, you just can’t hear him as he’s speaking to God and not the people. If you follow in a missal, there’s no problem, you follow right along with him.

1. all i could think was, since i am reading this english translation in the missal, and most other people at the mass were doing the same thing, why doesn’t the priest just skip the latin, have the same mass but with the english translation i am reading anyway.

Latin is the language of the Church, and therefore a holy language.

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me.

Surely you do not suggest that the Church was in the dark for the last few centuries?

when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel.

How is having one universal language contrary to the Gospel?

our religion is complicated enough, why add to the confusion and frustration by forcing people to learn another language.

Nobody complains about having foreign languages offered in school. This is what we call: exercising the brain. Why should we have to go to Mass if it’s inconvenient? Why confession? Why Baptism by water in places where there’s little water? A relationship with God requires some effort, nobody said it’s supposed to be easy.

i agree with the need to have faithful, decent translations, but switching back to latin because some of the translated words are not to your liking is just ridiculous.

It’s not about the translation being to our liking, it’s about accuracy and truth, which is what the Church is supposed to stand for. The whole Mass in the vernacular is disobedience.

if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

:tsktsk: You’d abandon the Church of Jesus Christ because you prefer the easy way to practice your religion? This is commonly called: tantrum throwing.:tsktsk:

If you don’t like the TLM, fine. Attend the beloved NO, set an example. There’s no reason to bash on the liturgy of the Saints, the Rite of the Church that has been in use, and unified, for more than 2 years.

 

[JRKH]

prior to Pope Benedict loosening the rules on TLM, my parish was the only one in the diocese allowed to have it, so it has been celebrated at my church for years. I attended the TLM several times in my parish over the past few years and I wasn’t too impressed.

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.
2. for half of the mass, the priest doesn’t even say anything and i kept having to guess what was going on (quite a distraction)
3. all i could think was, since i am reading this english translation in the missal, and most other people at the mass were doing the same thing, why doesn’t the priest just skip the latin, have the same mass but with the english translation i am reading anyway.

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me. when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel. our religion is complicated enough, why add to the confusion and frustration by forcing people to learn another language. i agree with the need to have faithful, decent translations, but switching back to latin because some of the translated words are not to your liking is just ridiculous. if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

No flogging from here. You tried it, made a determination for yourself and that’s fine. Really that is all most traditionalists ask for from others. Don’t condemn the TLM until you’ve tried it, and given it a real chance.
God bless you for your open mindedness.

Actually if the language had been the only change in the mass, or even if the change was language and turning the priest around, I don’t think there would really have been much fuss made. Come to think of it I doubt it the N.O. would have been a hard sell if it hadn’t been for the abuses and extremes that took place in many places.
Abuse of the liturgy, and the feeling that the old form - reverent mass was being shunted aside for “feel-good”, what we use to call “hoot-n-nanny” masses caused a lot of the backlash and resentment on the part of the more traditional members of the faithful. Now that the HF has OK’d the TLM as the EF, I hope to see a gradual moving toward greater reverence across the board.

Peace
James

 

[Eilish_Maura]

No flogging from here. You tried it, made a determination for yourself and that’s fine. Really that is all most traditionalists ask for from others. Don’t condemn the TLM until you’ve tried it, and given it a real chance.
God bless you for your open mindedness.

LOL

Guess only trying it recently counts – those who grew up with it and make anywhere near the same kind of remark get flogged regularly!!

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by Eilish Maura
I hope you are not suggesting that an OF missal in Polish would not be available if this guy wanted one.

Actually what is happening here is a bit of apples and oranges.
Your concern here is that your friend could not follow a mass in the vernacular of a given parish.
Howeve, Your Polish friend would not need a “Vernacular”/Polish translation at all if all the masses were said in the same way, using the same prayers, motions etc.

So I think that there are two issues here. One is the language, but the other, more important, is the variations in how various priests will celebrate the mass.
My Father served in the US army in WWII. He was in 5 different countries in Europe. He could go to any Catholic Mass, anywhere, and know what was going on. Of course he couldn’t understand the sermon, but everything else the same.
Can the same thing be said today?

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by JRKH
No flogging from here. You tried it, made a determination for yourself and that’s fine. Really that is all most traditionalists ask for from others. Don’t condemn the TLM until you’ve tried it, and given it a real chance.
God bless you for your open mindedness

Eilish,
If I have “flogged” you in the past I apologize. Admittedly I can become rather strident at times. I guess I was not aware that you had a familiarity with the EF and assumed things that I shouldn’t have. I also recognize that there are those here much more adamant than I when it comes to the TLM.

I do stand by the rest of my post though. If the changes in the mass had been less drastic, and if there had been less abuse of the liberalizing of the Liturgy, much of the problem today would not exist.

In this particular case, the poster attends a parish where the OF is celbrated reverently and he found no real advantage to the EF. In other cases though there are parishes where the OF is not celebrated reverently, and people find comfort in the EF. Each parish, and each person’s situation is different. That is something we sometimes lose on this board.

My personal view is very middle of the road. I find that I prefer the EF, but am also comfortable with the OF. In my case, our parish priest does a good job, but I’m not crazy about the music they choose. Since there is an EF about 40 minutes away, we go there on Sundays and to the OF during the week. I do not wish to see either mass done away with. Each has it’s own beauty and benefit to the faithful. They Both have our Lord in the Eucharist.

Peace
James

 

[Phemie]

Is he using the missal to learn Latin or to follow the Mass?

If it is to learn another language there are better ways – if it is to follow the mass - particularly the OF - a single language is all that is needed.

You obviously don’t get what he’s saying.

If Mass is in Latin there area Missals available in Latin/vernacular. You can always follow the Mass in your own language by listening to the Latin.

OTOH, if you are at a Mass in a vernacular language that you don’t speak, you can’t easily follow since there are no German/English or Spanish/French or Polish/French . There are, however, Latin/French, Latin/Polish, Latin/German etc. Missals.

 

[dang71]

My take on this. I regularly sit next to a Polish speaking guy at the TLM I attend. How do I know he’s Polish? He’s got a Polish Missal from which he can translate the entire Mass from Latin. No problem.

my take on this is it is utterly irrelevant. i have been to NO masses in China, Japan, Vietnam, and many other places and all were spoken in the vernacular of the locale. It is EXPECTED that I as a FOREIGNER would not understand the language in a FOREIGN country. i was able to follow along in the general sense, knowing where each part of the mass occurs, but was unable to truly participate because of not understanding the language in the specific sense. and therein lies the rub, if i cannot understand fully, then i cannot participate fully, and therefore lose out on the most important thing in my life, my religion.

on a side note, you are totally taking for granted that you have the time, education and money to allow for your intellectual pursuits into the latin language. many places i have been, most people can barely afford food for their family. if the only mass available was the latin mass, what a huge barrier they would have in getting to know Christ.

 

[mary_bobo]

prior to Pope Benedict loosening the rules on TLM, my parish was the only one in the diocese allowed to have it, so it has been celebrated at my church for years. I attended the TLM several times in my parish over the past few years and I wasn’t too impressed.

I guess in your case it is good to have the availability of both forms, right? Did you go into the experience with a preconceived idea that you would not like it?

1. i didn’t find it more or less reverent than any other mass i have been to. i believe it is the people who make the mass reverent, and have been to more NO masses that were much more reverent than any TLM i went to.

Interesting observation. I wonder how many of our posters would agree with you.

1. for half of the mass, the priest doesn’t even say anything and i kept having to guess what was going on (quite a distraction)

I suggest the priest was saying something, you just could not hear it.

1. all i could think was, since i am reading this english translation in the missal, and most other people at the mass were doing the same thing, why doesn’t the priest just skip the latin, have the same mass but with the english translation i am reading anyway.

The Mass in Latin was in use for hundreds of years prior to V2. It was the same no matter where in the world you went to Mass. IMO, there is something to be said for that.

this whole latin thing seems kind of goofy to me. when the apostles spoke in tongues, they spoke in each persons NATIVE language so people could fully and truly understand what they were saying. having a mass in any language other than the vernacular just seems contrary to the gospel. our religion is complicated enough, why add to the confusion and frustration by forcing people to learn another language. i agree with the need to have faithful, decent translations, but switching back to latin because some of the translated words are not to your liking is just ridiculous. if the only mass available was the TLM, i would not be Catholic anymore.

Little shallow, don’t you think? Sounds like a temper tantrum to me. If I can’t have it my way, I won’t play.

IMO, I am glad there are two ways to attend Mass. I go to a church that only has NO masses and they are reverent. But occasionally I attend a Latin Mass and the solemnity of it never ceases to amaze me. I prefer the Latin Mass, but I would never knock the NO. Perhaps you could try the reverse.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

You obviously don’t get what he’s saying.

If Mass is in Latin there area Missals available in Latin/vernacular. You can always follow the Mass in your own language by listening to the Latin.

OTOH, if you are at a Mass in a vernacular language that you don’t speak, you can’t easily follow since there are no German/English or Spanish/French or Polish/French . There are, however, Latin/French, Latin/Polish, Latin/German etc. Missals.

This all presumes that Catholics are all world travelers? I don’t think that world travel justifies making everyone attend Mass in Latin.

thanks, Richie

 

[Phemie]

This all presumes that Catholics are all world travelers? I don’t think that world travel justifies making everyone attend Mass in Latin.

thanks, Richie

Actually, for me it’s travelling 40 miles, in my own country, to a community that speaks a language only spoken by about 2000 people in the entire world.

 

[dang71]

How could you not be?

i didn’t find anything to be impressed by.

No, you just can’t hear him as he’s speaking to God and not the people. If you follow in a missal, there’s no problem, you follow right along with him.

i follow along in the NO just fine with the english missal. as a matter of fact, i followed along in TLM with the ENGLISH missal.

A relationship with God requires some effort, nobody said it’s supposed to be easy.

i don’t see where i ever asked for it to be easy, i just ask to be able to understand.

It’s not about the translation being to our liking, it’s about accuracy and truth, which is what the Church is supposed to stand for.

very true, but how can i know accuracy and truth if i cannot understand (or even hear) what the priest is saying?

The whole Mass in the vernacular is disobedience.

i find this statement VERY telling. truthfully, i find many TLMers to be borderline schismatic, and you are falling into that right now with this statement. the church has chosen the NO as the OF, and it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.