My Opinion

[Phemie]

i find this statement VERY telling. truthfully, i find many TLMers to be borderline schismatic, and you are falling into that right now with this statement. the church has chosen the NO as the OF, and it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.

No, you’re wrong, it has nothing to do with the TLM. If you read the documents the language of the NO is Latin with limited vernacular.

Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy (highlights are mine)
36. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

1. But since the use of the mother tongue, whether in the Mass, the administration of the sacraments, or other parts of the liturgy, frequently may be of great advantage to the people, the limits of its employment may be extended. This will apply in the first place to the readings and directives, and to some of the prayers and chants, according to the regulations on this matter to be laid down separately in subsequent chapters.

1. These norms being observed, it is for the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

1. Translations from the Latin text into the mother tongue intended for use in the liturgy must be approved by the competent territorial ecclesiastical authority mentioned above.

1. In Masses which are celebrated with the people, a suitable place may be allotted to their mother tongue. This is to apply in the first place to the readings and “the common prayer,” but also, as local conditions may warrant, to those parts which pertain to the people, according to tho norm laid down in Art. 36 of this Constitution.

**Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
**
And wherever a more extended use of the mother tongue within the Mass appears desirable, the regulation laid down in Art. 40 of this Constitution is to be observed.

 

[misterbee]

my take on this is it is utterly irrelevant. i have been to NO masses in China, Japan, Vietnam, and many other places and all were spoken in the vernacular of the locale. It is EXPECTED that I as a FOREIGNER would not understand the language in a FOREIGN country. i was able to follow along in the general sense, knowing where each part of the mass occurs, but was unable to truly participate because of not understanding the language in the specific sense. and therein lies the rub, if i cannot understand fully, then i cannot participate fully, and therefore lose out on the most important thing in my life, my religion.

on a side note, you are totally taking for granted that you have the time, education and money to allow for your intellectual pursuits into the latin language. many places i have been, most people can barely afford food for their family. if the only mass available was the latin mass, what a huge barrier they would have in getting to know Christ.

It is, indeed, expected that, as a foreigner, you may not know the vernacular in which the Mass is said. However, being as the Church is Universal, wouldn’t it be nice to be able to look at a missal and know exactly what is being said, instead of ‘a good idea’ of what’s going on?

You said yourself, you were unable to participate fully because you couldn’t understand the vernacular - well, I don’t fully understand Latin, either, but I can participate fully in Mass.

I don’t know where you got your side note from, either. I was raised in the OF of the Mass in a very poor family, and had never attended an EF Mass until I was in my twenties. I am still picking it up, but, it’s coming pretty fast… I can only imagine how much easier it would be to follow along if I had done it since birth.

Also, from your ‘side note,’ you seem to insinuate that, before vernacular Masses, people had this huge barrier that was Latin. From what I know of the Saints, a lot of them attended the Latin Mass exclusively, as it was the only one around for a while, and they seemed to do fine.

 

[Eilish_Maura]

You obviously don’t get what he’s saying.

If Mass is in Latin there area Missals available in Latin/vernacular. You can always follow the Mass in your own language by listening to the Latin.

OTOH, if you are at a Mass in a vernacular language that you don’t speak, you can’t easily follow since there are no German/English or Spanish/French or Polish/French . There are, however, Latin/French, Latin/Polish, Latin/German etc. Missals.

No - point is one does not need dual language at all.

 

[dang71]

No, you’re wrong, it has nothing to do with the TLM. If you read the documents the language of the NO is Latin with limited vernacular.

lets take a look at #3 again (my emphasis).

1. These norms being observed, **it is for the **competent **territorial **ecclesiastical **authority **mentioned in Art. 22, 2, to decide whether, and to what extent, the vernacular language is to be used; their decrees are to be approved, that is, confirmed, by the Apostolic See. And, whenever it seems to be called for, this authority is to consult with bishops of neighboring regions which have the same language.

since ,in every territory i have ever visited, the terretorial authority has decided the extent to be the whole mass, approved and confirmed by the Apostolic See, i will repeat that it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.

 

[Dauphin]

People who aren’t properly disposed or in tune with the purpose of the Mass will no doubt find the TLM repugnant. Such devotion, reverence, and quiet love given to God must be somewhat confusing and even repulsive to someone raised in a “people-centred” church.

I find the the TLM much more conducive to quiet prayer and contemplation of the sacred mysteries and dramatically more spiritually enriching than the NO. After the NO, it’s almost as if I haven’t been to church at all; you have muddle through so many of the banal prayers and vulgar liturgy to orient yourself to what’s actually happening on the altar. It’s never impressed me remotely; it’s what drove me away from the Church at a young age. When nothing seems intuitively sacred about the Mass, there’s no reason to attend.

 

[dang71]

OTOH, if you are at a Mass in a vernacular language that you don’t speak, you can’t easily follow since there are no German/English or Spanish/French or Polish/French . There are, however, Latin/French, Latin/Polish, Latin/German etc. Missals.

this is actually incorrect. here in the US they may be difficult to find because english is so prevalent over such a broad geographic area, but when i have travelled overseas it was very easy to find missals listing several vernacular languages together in one book. the cathedral in Tokyo had a whole stack of them in the back for people to use.

 

[dang71]

People who aren’t properly disposed or in tune with the purpose of the Mass will no doubt find the TLM repugnant. Such devotion, reverence, and quiet love given to God must be somewhat confusing and even repulsive to someone raised in a “people-centred” church.

i don’t find TLM repugnant, i just find the use of latin silly.

I find the the TLM much more conducive to quiet prayer and contemplation of the sacred mysteries and dramatically more spiritually enriching than the NO. After the NO, it’s almost as if I haven’t been to church at all; you have muddle through so many of the banal prayers and vulgar liturgy to orient yourself to what’s actually happening on the altar. It’s never impressed me remotely; it’s what drove me away from the Church at a young age.

i am happy for you that you have found peace in TLM, but to classify the NO as banal and vulgar is quite excessive. actually, i find that when i attend TLM, i feel as if i never went to mass at all.

When nothing seems intuitively sacred about the Mass, there’s no reason to attend.

i totally agree! if the priest is speaking in latin, for me the mass loses all sacredness because he might as well be reciting shakespeare in swahili for all i understand of it.

 

[Phemie]

since ,in every territory i have ever visited, the terretorial authority has decided the extent to be the whole mass, approved and confirmed by the Apostolic See, i will repeat that it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.

But they have completely ignored # 54 which says:
**
Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.**
so in fact it is the local authorities which are disobeying the rules of the CSL.

The Pope gave every single parish a copy of Jubilate Deo, the minimal setting of the Latin Ordinary of the Mass that everyone should be able to sing. Have you ever heard it in your parish? Me neither. I have a copy and it’s pretty simple to sing. It would be a piece of cake to teach it to the congregation as the Holy Father had intended it to be but I doubt that that will ever happen.

 

[Richie_Nelson]

People who aren’t properly disposed or in tune with the purpose of the Mass will no doubt find the TLM repugnant. Such devotion, reverence, and quiet love given to God must be somewhat confusing and even repulsive to someone raised in a “people-centred” church.

I don’t find it repugnant. I just don’t understand the obsession to the point where people will drive by five catholic churches to find a latin mass, or like the guy a week or so ago who said if he couldn’t find a TLM he wouldn’t go at all.

thanks, Richie

 

[Phemie]

lets take a look at #3 again (my emphasis).

since ,in every territory i have ever visited, the terretorial authority has decided the extent to be the whole mass, approved and confirmed by the Apostolic See, i will repeat that it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.

Has your bishops’ conference ever issued a decree on that? I’ll check my copy of the decrees to be sure but I don’t recall ever seeing a decree on that topic from my bishops’ conference. And as long as they don’t issue a decree on the matter, Rome can’t rule on it.

I’m in no way suggesting that the vernacular can’t be used or shouldn’t be used. I’m saying that we should be using both the vernacular and Latin on a regular basis as per the CSL. We are after all the Latin Rite Church and the official language of the Church and of the Liturgy is Latin.

 

[JRKH]

Originally Posted by latinmasslover
The whole Mass in the vernacular is disobedience.

dang71,
I’m sorry you feel this way about “TLMers” as you call them. I note that most posters on this thread so far have been supportive of the idea of maintaining the two forms.

I am one of those people who will “drive by 5 parishes”, as someone else said, to get to a TLM. However I will not say, as latinmasslover says above, that the vernacular is disobedient. The Holy father has set down the forms as the OF and the EF and that is that.
My preference is the EF, and yours is the OF. If we respect each others views and choices we should be able to worship together with the whole Church every Sunday in full and loving communion with Rome.

I recognize how frustrating it is to debate these things here, and it saddens me to see the few try to tear down another’s faith. They come with their comments about how silly the Latin is, or how incorrect the N.O. is and they usually manage to monopolize the discussion by forcing those of us who are more moderate to defend our positions. Unfortunately all these tend to do is polarize the discussion even more.

Regardless, this “TLMer” will support your choice with my whole heart and defend your right to prefer the OF as I know you will defend my right to prefer the EF.

Peace
James

 

[stmaria]

I don’t find it repugnant.

I just don’t understand the obsession to the point where people will drive by five catholic churches to find a latin mass,

I think Dauphin answered your statement better then I could

Dauphin said
People who aren’t properly disposed or in tune with the purpose of the Mass will no doubt find the TLM repugnant. Such devotion, reverence, and quiet love given to God must be somewhat confusing and even repulsive to someone raised in a “people-centred” church.

People dirve past 5 Churches to get to a TLM because they want to get away from a “people-centered” Church. They want to worship God as all of the Saints and martyrs have with reverence and quite love given to God.

I

 

[Eilish_Maura]

The saints and the martyrs would simply use the missal available to them – so why be so fussy as to skip Mass or go SSPX if one can’t get their first choice?

 

[ProVobis]

if the only mass available was the latin mass, what a huge barrier they would have in getting to know Christ.

Somehow this hadn’t been a problem for over 1600 years. I would think with all the modern technology available (internet, boards like this, Fr.Z, etc.) there would be a better knowledge of Christ through the Latin Mass, not worse. Personally, had the Novus Ordo been my first Mass, I wouldn’t have had the slightest idea what was actually going on, vernacular or not. Too many options, too confusing. We need the Latin Mass, whether you choose to attend or not.

 

[ProVobis]

No - point is one does not need dual language at all.

True, if you trust that the translations of the meanings are true and accurate. But if they’re not, how would you know?

 

[ProVobis]

since ,in every territory i have ever visited, the terretorial authority has decided the extent to be the whole mass, approved and confirmed by the Apostolic See, i will repeat that it is you who are being disobedient by disagreeing with the church.

Not so fast with those stones, sir. The Apostolic See has deemed the current translations need to be more in line with the promulgated Mass. Seems as if the delay to do this is to some degree disobedience, isn’t it?

 

[ProVobis]

i just find the use of latin silly.

Do you think using a few upper case letters is silly too?

 

[ProVobis]

The saints and the martyrs would simply use the missal available to them – so why be so fussy as to skip Mass or go SSPX if one can’t get their first choice?

Many, if not most, saints and martyrs had no missal available to them. And probably not too many drove long distances to get to Mass either, and if they did, it most likely was the Latin Mass. I wonder how they managed to keep the Faith. Any ideas?

 

[JRKH]

The saints and the martyrs would simply use the missal available to them – so why be so fussy as to skip Mass or go SSPX if one can’t get their first choice?

Eilish,
You show a rather naive view here. Somewhat unusual for you.
The fact is that:

1. For most of those 1600 years or so most people couldn’t read.
2. Most of that time there was no printing press so books were extremely expensive.
3. Those who could read, in fact anyone with much education, could read/understand Latin.

As to your other point I heartily agree.
If I were in a strange place and had to find a mass, my preference would be:

1. Attend an EF if possible
2. Attend an OF
3. Attend an SSPX - only if no other is available
4. Watch mass on TV - if that option available
5. Read the mass - If no other alternative is available (I would use my EF missal for that.)

Looking the above over makes me think it might make an interesting thread.
I don’t want to hijack this thread soe I believe I’ll start one. It will be interesting to see how people would choose.

Peace
James

 

[James0235]

Actually, for me it’s travelling 40 miles, in my own country, to a community that speaks a language only spoken by about 2000 people in the entire world.

Only 2000 people in the world? Wow! What language is that?

James