My Parish

[gksaoh]

Mine is a typical American Catholic parish. Before Vatican II there were 3 priests to serve us and a large convent of sisters teaching in the elementary and high schools. Now are pastor lives alone. He really is only half ours because he must care for another parish too. There are still sisters in the convent, but they are old. There no longer is a parish school.

This sounds sad, but I am very happy with the changes. The laity no longer sit on their hands. We have 29 ministries! We belong! Instead of clergy and women religious monopolizing most apostolates, lay people bring the Eucharist to shut-ins just as they did in the church of the catacombs. They participate in decision making in the parish council. They have important roles in the liturgy. They guide in life stages, baptismal and marriage preparation and bereavement ministries.

The whole spirtiuality has changed from emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation to active service to others. No longer are we passive observers at Mass in an unknown tongue. We are understanding participants.

I find it hard to understand those who oppose the changes and yearn for what they see as “the good old days.”

 

[JNB]

The laity and clergy have their roles, and sadly this has been blurred after Vatican II. You say your parish is typical of most parishes in the US, and I do not doubt you, but ask yourself this, how many at your parish follow church teachings? How many are there for confession on Saturdays? How many priestly and religous vocations has your parish produced in recent years?

It is sad that many Catholic parishes now resemble mainline Protestant chapels with worse liturgical music, and a clearicalised laity that would make mostr mainline Protestant denominations blush.

 

[barnestormer]

gksaoh:

We have 29 ministries!

Yay!! Are you counting the Building and Grounds Ministry. How about the Janitorial Ministry, or the Garbage Ministry (the Lord is calling someone to take out the trash, you know). We musn’t forget the Ministry of Leaving Pamphlets Filled with Dissent in the Vestibule (pardon the archaic term. Now it’s called the “gathering space”). How about the Ministry of the Washed-up Hippies Who Have To Tell Everyone (for the 100th time) about the Time They Chained Themselves to the Fences at the US Army School of the Americas?? Hooray!! Everyone is a minister!!

gksaoh:

We belong!

And you didn’t before?

gksaoh:

They have important roles in the liturgy.

The vocation of the laity is the sanctification of the world, not tinkering with the liturgy or developing new and creative ways to “belong” in the liturgy.

gksaoh:

The whole spirtiuality has changed from emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation to active service to others.

Well, let’s see, unless I missed that insert in the bulletin or the announcement after Mass, the mission of the Church hasn’t changed. Salvation is still the Church’s purpose. All other functions flow from that. So no one was involved or did anything before Vatican II?? I suppose all those Catholic schools that provided top-quality education at ultra low cost were not actively serving others. And all those pesky Catholic hospitals—they weren’t doing anything either. The Church’s overseas mission work?? Na, nothing there.

Now Catholic schools are ultra-expensive to attend, Catholic hospitals are disappearing, and overseash Mission work struggles to acquire the necessary resources—all of this because we’re pre-occupied with griping about priestly celibacy and women’s ordination, fundraising to pay for de-gendered missals and hymnals, and handing out albs and a “liturgical ministry” to everyone who walks in the door. You’re right: things are so much better now.

gksaoh:

No longer are we passive observers at Mass in an unknown tongue. We are understanding participants.

Perhaps you are engaging in the opposite of nostalgia: bashing the past as a horrible place compared to the Enlightened Present. Latin is still the universal and official language of the Church, and is regaining a prominent place in Holy Mass and in liturgical music. Judging by the caliber of young priests and seminarians, this trend will only continue.

What’s going on in the Mass is the same now as it was 10, 20, or 2000 years ago. It sounds like the only thing that has changed is how you and a few others perceive your role, which implies that what was/is important to you is not what’s going on there, i.e., the unbloody re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary, but rather how it makes you “feel.”

 

[Richardols]

barnestormer:

Now Catholic schools are ultra-expensive to attend,

I don’t know where you live, but here in Little Rock, and even back in Brooklyn, NY where my daughter lives, Catholic parochial school costs are reasonable. If a number of schools are closing in NYC, as they indeed are, it’s because there aren’t enough parishioners with school aged children to support a school in those neighborhoods.

Catholic hospitals are disappearing

Where?

overseas Mission work struggles to acquire the necessary resources—all of this because we’re pre-occupied with griping about priestly celibacy and women’s ordination,

I don’t see how there is any direct causal connection between less generous donating to the missions and anyone’s griping about celibacy. It seems to me that people are overly materialist and find less reason to be generous to the Church and to missions.

 

[barnestormer]

Richardols:

I don’t know where you live, but here in Little Rock, and even back in Brooklyn, NY where my daughter lives, Catholic parochial school costs are reasonable. If a number of schools are closing in NYC, as they indeed are, it’s because there aren’t enough parishioners with school aged children to support a school in those neighborhoods.

Or there aren’t enough people who can afford to pay the tuition. I live in an area where the cost of sending your child to a good Catholic school isn’t far below what it costs to send him/her to the state university for a year. We’re talking about several thousand dollars a year, and in some parts of the country it can cost more than $10,000 per year for Catholic school. In this same area, back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, Catholic school cost anywhere from $20-$50 per year. Adjust those numbers for inflation and you’re talking about just a few hundred dollars per year in today’s money. That’s a hige difference.

FYI–Arkansas is different from New York or the West coast.

Richardols:

I don’t see how there is any direct causal connection between less generous donating to the missions and anyone’s griping about celibacy. It seems to me that people are overly materialist and find less reason to be generous to the Church and to missions.

“Because” was the wrong word. I meant to say that these things are going on WHILE we are pre-occupied with sundry other unimportant stuff.

 

[vegpotter]

gksaoh:

I find it hard to understand those who oppose the changes and yearn for what they see as “the good old days.”

I have to chime in here. My parish sounds similar to yours, except that we never had a school outside of the PSR classes; this is mostly a retired community with a few of us younger folks. I, too, find it hard to understand the complaints. But, I see it differently–I know nothing other than the post Vatican II Church; I was born several years after the Council. But, everyone has to complain about something, and if it makes others happy to disagree with the Church and it’s changes, so be it.

 

[Brad]

gksaoh:

The whole spirtiuality has changed from emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation to active service to others. No longer are we passive observers at Mass in an unknown tongue. We are understanding participants.

I find it hard to understand those who oppose the changes and yearn for what they see as “the good old days.”

Because active service to others is not sufficient to get to Heaven. It is necessary but not sufficient. You need both components.

 

[rayne89]

gksaoh:

Mine is a typical American Catholic parish. Before Vatican II there were 3 priests to serve us and a large convent of sisters teaching in the elementary and high schools. Now are pastor lives alone. He really is only half ours because he must care for another parish too. There are still sisters in the convent, but they are old. There no longer is a parish school.

This sounds sad, but I am very happy with the changes. The laity no longer sit on their hands. We have 29 ministries! We belong! Instead of clergy and women religious monopolizing most apostolates, lay people bring the Eucharist to shut-ins just as they did in the church of the catacombs. They participate in decision making in the parish council. They have important roles in the liturgy. They guide in life stages, baptismal and marriage preparation and bereavement ministries.

The whole spirtiuality has changed from emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation to active service to others. No longer are we passive observers at Mass in an unknown tongue. We are understanding participants.

I find it hard to understand those who oppose the changes and yearn for what they see as “the good old days.”

I grew up up in the 70’s & 80 when the “good old days” where unknown to me. You know what else was unknown to me? The teachings of my faith.

I went to catechism class every Monday from 1st grade until 8th and the only thing I learned was be nice to each other. I never knew we as faith believed in then true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist, I never knew we were supposed to go to confession at least once a year -infact I was never even taught how to make a proper confession. I made my 1st confession 2 years after my 1st communion. I didn’t know the teachings on birthcontrol and many other central teachings of the church. We had all kinds of liturgical abuses during Mass and I had no clue they were wrong. We even had a clown at the Saturday evening Mass for the children.

All these “ministries” and no one knows what it means to be Catholic anymore. My husband and I recently changed parishes to a more traditional one. We have many friends at our old parish. They see the Catholic faith as equal to to any other Christian denomination, they don’t have a clue about the real presence in the Eucharist, no clue that artificial birth control is still considered a sin, rarely if ever go to confession - we have traded in the faith of the church established by Jesus Christ for the church established by Martin Luther & John Calvin & countless others who revolted against the church.

The only reason I know my faith is after I was married I researched it on my own and began watching EWTN. I read numerous books on our Catholic faith, I had to educate myself where the lay ministries and the laity’s over taking of the church had failed to give children even the very basics of Catholic church teaching.

We have many ministries at our parish too. Visting the homebound, preparing a meals for families with a new baby at home, Legion of Mary, bereavement ministry, the rosary society, the mens club, garden club (they care for the plants and flowers on the church grounds), children’s group, youth group, St. Agnes girls club, boys club, adult singles, senior club, Bible study, 36 week catechism class for adults, pro-life ministry, Holy Name Society, St. Monica’s Sodality and more. All which are deeply grounded in our Catholic faith, and all over seen by our priests.

We also have several vocations to the priesthood every year. If you want rebel against the authority of the church just do what the others that were too proud to answer to Rome did, start your own church.

 

[barnestormer]

vegpotter:

if it makes others happy to disagree with the Church and it’s changes, so be it.

I suspect that most people of which you’re speaking aren’t complaining about the Church and “its changes,” because the changes that arouse complaint are unofficial and often contrary to Church teaching—i.e., liturgical abuses, spreading false doctine, lack of Catechesis, blurring the distinction between the roles of clergy and laity, loosening of morals, and the list goes on ad nauseam.

Take some time to read the Vatican II documents (if you haven’t already), and you’ll see that far from promoting some kind of revolution, the Council re-affirmed traditional teachings and practices through renewal. The problems stem from the Council’s implementation by some bishops, priests, theologians, and laity who substituted their own groundless ideas for genuine Conciliar intentions and reforms.

 

[vegpotter]

barnestormer:

I suspect that most people of which you’re speaking aren’t complaining about the Church and “its changes,” because the changes that arouse complaint are unofficial and often contrary to Church teaching—i.e., liturgical abuses, spreading false doctine, lack of Catechesis, blurring the distinction between the roles of clergy and laity, loosening of morals, and the list goes on ad nauseam.

Take some time to read the Vatican II documents (if you haven’t already), and you’ll see that far from promoting some kind of revolution, the Council re-affirmed traditional teachings and practices through renewal. The problems stem from the Council’s implementation by some bishops, priests, theologians, and laity who substituted their own groundless ideas for genuine Conciliar intentions and reforms.

I have to admit; I’ve not read the documents. My question is, it’s been 40 years, if the Council’s implementation by the Church (bishops, priests, etc.) is incorrect, why didn’t/haven’t any of the Popes since '65 do anything about it?

Also, the people I was thinking of are those who object to the NO Mass and other changes the Church has made. I understand legitimate complaints, like those you listed above.

 

[MrS]

barnestormer:

Yay!! Are you counting the Building and Grounds Ministry. How about the Janitorial Ministry, or the Garbage Ministry (the Lord is calling someone to take out the trash, you know). We musn’t forget the Ministry of Leaving Pamphlets Filled with Dissent in the Vestibule (pardon the archaic term. Now it’s called the “gathering space”). How about the Ministry of the Washed-up Hippies Who Have To Tell Everyone (for the 100th time) about the Time They Chained Themselves to the Fences at the US Army School of the Americas?? Hooray!! Everyone is a minister!!

And you didn’t before?

The vocation of the laity is the sanctification of the world, not tinkering with the liturgy or developing new and creative ways to “belong” in the liturgy.

Well, let’s see, unless I missed that insert in the bulletin or the announcement after Mass, the mission of the Church hasn’t changed. Salvation is still the Church’s purpose. All other functions flow from that. So no one was involved or did anything before Vatican II?? I suppose all those Catholic schools that provided top-quality education at ultra low cost were not actively serving others. And all those pesky Catholic hospitals—they weren’t doing anything either. The Church’s overseas mission work?? Na, nothing there.

Now Catholic schools are ultra-expensive to attend, Catholic hospitals are disappearing, and overseash Mission work struggles to acquire the necessary resources—all of this because we’re pre-occupied with griping about priestly celibacy and women’s ordination, fundraising to pay for de-gendered missals and hymnals, and handing out albs and a “liturgical ministry” to everyone who walks in the door. You’re right: things are so much better now.

Perhaps you are engaging in the opposite of nostalgia: bashing the past as a horrible place compared to the Enlightened Present. Latin is still the universal and official language of the Church, and is regaining a prominent place in Holy Mass and in liturgical music. Judging by the caliber of young priests and seminarians, this trend will only continue.

What’s going on in the Mass is the same now as it was 10, 20, or 2000 years ago. It sounds like the only thing that has changed is how you and a few others perceive your role, which implies that what was/is important to you is not what’s going on there, i.e., the unbloody re-presentation of the Sacrifice at Calvary, but rather how it makes you “feel.”

I tend to agree with all you have posted… and also know that most of it falls on deaf ears. Thankfully, with the new assignments of priests in our diocese, I have 3 close, and 5 not so close churches to attend Mass at.

I look forward, eagerly, to the work of the Pope as he corrects the abuses-made-into-norms-by-weak-bishops and defines the difference between ecumenism (let’s all play nice), and evangelism (tell the Truth like it is).

 

[Richardols]

barnestormer:

Or there aren’t enough people who can afford to pay the tuition. I live in an area where the cost of sending your child to a good Catholic school isn’t far below what it costs to send him/her to the state university for a year. We’re talking about several thousand dollars a year, and in some parts of the country it can cost more than $10,000 per year for Catholic school. In this same area, back in the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, Catholic school cost anywhere from $20-$50 per year. Adjust those numbers for inflation and you’re talking about just a few hundred dollars per year in today’s money. That’s a hige difference.

People also earned a lot less then, and most schools had nuns as teachers - a tremendous labor cost difference. I’m amazed that tuition was so much less than $50 per year. I recall that my parochial school tuition in Brooklyn in the 1950s was much higher than that.

FYI–Arkansas is different from New York or the West coast.

Not necessarily. My grandson’s tuition in Brooklyn is about $275 per month (other schools may be cheaper or more expensive); tuition here runs from about $200 up to $400 per month. I don’t know about the West Coast. Wouldn’t it depend on which state you’re in?

 

[barnestormer]

vegpotter:

My question is, it’s been 40 years, if the Council’s implementation by the Church (bishops, priests, etc.) is incorrect, why didn’t/haven’t any of the Popes since '65 do anything about it?

I think one of the things JP II will go down in history for is his efforts to steer the Church towards a faithful interpretation of Vatican II. Certainly that was a priority close to his heart (George Weigel’s bio of him “Witness to Hope” talks about this). JP I was only around for a month, and Paul VI had troubles of his own time to contend with (the tremendous flack over Humanae Vitae, for example).

Correcting these kinds of problems takes time, and I think there are a number of reasons why they haven’t been addressed. A lot of bishops turn a blind eye to dissenting priests in their dioceses, and a lot of priests turn a blind eye to laity and parish “ministers” who do and say improper things. There are other reasons, I suppose.

vegpotter:

Also, the people I was thinking of are those who object to the NO Mass and other changes the Church has made.

Certainly there are folks who simply object to the Novus Ordo in principle and stick to the Tridentine Mass, longing for “the old days.” But I think a lot of people turn away from the Novus Ordo not in principle but because of liturgical abuses that happen. They throw the baby out with the bathwater, as the saying goes. That’s a shame, because when carried out properly and reverently, the Novus Ordo is a beautiful Mass.

 

[felra]

gksaoh:

The whole spirtiuality has changed from emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation to active service to others. No longer are we passive observers at Mass in an unknown tongue. We are understanding participants.

I find it hard to understand those who oppose the changes and yearn for what they see as “the good old days.”

I don’t care what “good old days” may mean for any generation or era, to leave behind the emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation in exchange for active service sounds more like laity self-will run riot. This sounds the alarm of what the crisis is in the Church, when personal sanctification and holiness of life and person is no longer the source and summit of any active social ministry. Unfortunately the flock is left vulnerable if there is a lack or absence of clergy leadership and daily celebration of the Eucharist, or worse, a clergy that promotes such a convoluted vision of Church.

It sounds like your Church needs to take a lesson from Mary in the Gospel who “sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak” , and her sister Martha who was “burdened with much serving” and upset “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me”; to which Jesus replied to service oriented Martha in gentle rebuke “There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her”. (Luke 10: 38-42)

 

[spanky]

rayne89:

I grew up up in the 70’s & 80 when the “good old days” where unknown to me. You know what else was unknown to me? The teachings of my faith…

The only reason I know my faith is…I researched it on my own and began watching EWTN. I read numerous books on our Catholic faith, I had to educate myself where the lay ministries and the laity’s over taking of the church had failed to give children even the very basics of Catholic church teaching.

This is a great post for me because it hits very close to home.

Although I (and my parents) should take some of the blame for my lack of understanding and living the faith, I was certainly not taught well at (Catholic) school or during homilies at Mass.

 

[La_Chiara]

spanky:

This is a great post for me because it hits very close to home.

Although I (and my parents) should take some of the blame for my lack of understanding and living the faith, I was certainly not taught well at (Catholic) school or during homilies at Mass.

Well, then get hot and get learning about your faith!

I went to one of the best public high schools on the east coast, and then to an Ivy League college. In both cases, I was an honor graduate in rigorous programs. After I had lived in Europe for a few years, I realized the holes I had in my education. I believe education does not end when we finish school but rather education becomes our own responsibility to continue throughout our lives.

I too agree that Catholics who grew up since the 1950s have received a watered-down version of our faith in CCD and perhaps also in Catholic schools. So I say again “Get hot and get learning about your faith!” Take responsibility for your own knowledge or ignorance. There are certainly plenty of great resources out there!

 

[Nohome]

La Chiara:

Well, then get hot and get learning about your faith!

Like others, I too was poorly catechised (sp?). Like you I studied on my own, but came to the conclusion that I was little more than a cultural or secular Catholic.
La Chiara:

I believe education does not end when we finish school but rather education becomes our own responsibility to continue throughout our lives.

Can’t disagree. I took up Japanese at age 38, studied Latin just to study Catholicism. Read and continued to read most anything I can get my hands on, but I still can’t embrace the teachings of the Church.
La Chiara:

I too agree that Catholics who grew up since the 1950s have received a watered-down version of our faith in CCD and perhaps also in Catholic schools.

I was part of the first generation of V2 Catholics. I often say CCD was little more than “God loves you, now go color a rainbow”.

Nohome

 

[La_Chiara]

Nohome:

Like others, I too was poorly catechised (sp?). Like you I studied on my own, but came to the conclusion that I was little more than a cultural or secular Catholic.

Can’t disagree. I took up Japanese at age 38, studied Latin just to study Catholicism. Read and continued to read most anything I can get my hands on, but I still can’t embrace the teachings of the Church.

I was part of the first generation of V2 Catholics. I often say CCD was little more than “God loves you, now go color a rainbow”.

Nohome

I like and will have to use your line about CCD (when we were kids) being about “God loves you, now go color a rainbow.” It was for me too. I was in a similar position as you. My studies of the Italian language, European history, and art history gave me the tools to love and respect the Catholic Church. Yes, the Catholic Church is imperfect but it is awesome. And it is the closest institution of any that we humans have to God.

 

[Richardols]

Nohome:

I still can’t embrace the teachings of the Church.

That requires the gift of faith. Perhaps you haven’t received it as of yet. Your great interest in the Church may well lead to your having that great gift bestowed upon you.

 

[fix]

felra:

I don’t care what “good old days” may mean for any generation or era, to leave behind the emphasis on personal piety and individual salvation in exchange for active service sounds more like laity self-will run riot. This sounds the alarm of what the crisis is in the Church, when personal sanctification and holiness of life and person is no longer the source and summit of any active social ministry. Unfortunately the flock is left vulnerable if there is a lack or absence of clergy leadership and daily celebration of the Eucharist, or worse, a clergy that promotes such a convoluted vision of Church.

It sounds like your Church needs to take a lesson from Mary in the Gospel who “sat beside the Lord at his feet listening to him speak” , and her sister Martha who was “burdened with much serving” and upset “Lord, do you not care that my sister has left me by myself to do the serving? Tell her to help me”; to which Jesus replied to service oriented Martha in gentle rebuke “There is need of only one thing. Mary has chosen the better part and it will not be taken from her”. (Luke 10: 38-42)

We cannot buy our way into heaven.