My Pastor said, "anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy."

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crazzeto said:
Padrej,

Truely I always enjoy your insightful posts, and certainly only wish I had your knowlege of scripture. One comment I would make here regarding the impossiblity of reconciliation is to bare in mind the meaning of the word impossible in scripture.

Typically it would seem it more references something which is so difficult that one would not expect a human being to achieve such a feat, rather than a literal impossibility which I believe is the context in which this pastor is referreing to it.

For instance, the Rev. George Leo Haydock in his notes on this very passage would referre the reader to Mattew XIX 26 (that it is impossible that a rich man be saved) & Luke XVII (that it is impossible that scandal not come).

It’s never certain that even the greatest of sinners couldnn’t repent with the assitance of God, indeed it does happen and with some frequency. After all, the Lord can certainly forgive any sin, if we accept this then we must accept that the Lord can even forgive those who go into open apostacy against Christ. It’s just not very likely that those people who do so would choose to turn their face back to the Lord.
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Thank you for your kind words.
I agree that God alone knows what is in the heart of a sinner, and I agree that they COULD repent at any time. The sad thing with pastors/priests etc God chooses not to tell us “John on his deathbed made a good confession.” I think the point of the Hebrews passage that was cited deals with (if you take it in the entire context of scripture) a person who has turned back to the old sinful ways and refuses to acknowledge the action of God in their life. Colossians tells us that we have to put off the old way and put on the new. Much like when you got out of bed your clothes just did not automatically get you dressed, you had to take off the night clothes and put on your day attire. If a person comes to the Lord they should be willing to put off the old. What the Hebrews passage speak of is one who for a while has been part of the congregation and then turns back to the ways of the world.

You are correct in citing the other passages as Jesus himself said "all things are possible with God. The point of the rich man getting into heaven was Jesus was referring to those who trusted in their riches. In Jesus’ day persons thought if you were rich God has already blessed you. Jesus was saying this was not the case, you must wisely use what God gave to you. With the second passage you cite, Jesus is also stating that if the attitude and person does not change that the scandal will come. It all has to do with how we live.

My favorite bumper sticker that I have ever seen says: “Live so that the preacher will not have to lie about you at your funeral.” I hate having to do a funeral for a person that hardly ever darkens the door of a church and the family wants them to sound like they were Mother Theresa.
 
I want to post a little argument that I’ve come up with that kind of addresses the “well they were never really saved in the first place”. Please feel free to shoot holes in it or correct me.

From what I’ve gathered with talking with Protestants is that most hold the belief that all sin is the same. No such thing as mortal sin. Telling a lie is the same as going on a rampage of murders. Most of these are the “Bible churches” and Baptists folks that I have conversations with. They say that once a person is “truly” saved that they are a new creation in Christ and a person will never “fall away” like committing adultery, murder, satan worship, etc as previously mentioned in earlier posts on this thread.

Well what I always ask them is if they are still a sinner. I haven’t met somebody who is arrogant enough to say no. Then I ask if they are still a sinner then they are not a new creation because all sin is the same and they are not saved.

This doesn’t make them to happy… That is just my thought process… It usually gets them thinking. Either about mortal and venial sin or that OSAS is not as solid as they thought. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong or if my thought process doesn’t make sense…
 
Padrej said:
Thank you for your kind words.
I agree that God alone knows what is in the heart of a sinner, and I agree that they COULD repent at any time. The sad thing with pastors/priests etc God chooses not to tell us “John on his deathbed made a good confession.” I think the point of the Hebrews passage that was cited deals with (if you take it in the entire context of scripture) a person who has turned back to the old sinful ways and refuses to acknowledge the action of God in their life. Colossians tells us that we have to put off the old way and put on the new. Much like when you got out of bed your clothes just did not automatically get you dressed, you had to take off the night clothes and put on your day attire. If a person comes to the Lord they should be willing to put off the old. What the Hebrews passage speak of is one who for a while has been part of the congregation and then turns back to the ways of the world.

You are correct in citing the other passages as Jesus himself said "all things are possible with God. The point of the rich man getting into heaven was Jesus was referring to those who trusted in their riches. In Jesus’ day persons thought if you were rich God has already blessed you. Jesus was saying this was not the case, you must wisely use what God gave to you. With the second passage you cite, Jesus is also stating that if the attitude and person does not change that the scandal will come. It all has to do with how we live.

My favorite bumper sticker that I have ever seen says: “Live so that the preacher will not have to lie about you at your funeral.” I hate having to do a funeral for a person that hardly ever darkens the door of a church and the family wants them to sound like they were Mother Theresa.
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I may be mis-reading, are you saying that when a person finds his way to God, repents and lives a good moral life for many years, then falls a way for a time, sees the error of his ways and wants to return, that there is no coming back?
 
wmscott said:
I may be mis-reading, are you saying that when a person finds his way to God, repents and lives a good moral life for many years, then falls a way for a time, sees the error of his ways and wants to return, that there is no coming back?
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I read differently, that it simply isn’t very likely that they could come back.
 
wmscott said:
I may be mis-reading, are you saying that when a person finds his way to God, repents and lives a good moral life for many years, then falls a way for a time, sees the error of his ways and wants to return, that there is no coming back?
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No just that it is nearly impossible. When a person goes back to the ways of the world it is hard to swing them back. For example, the strongest person in a church is usually a convert from another faith. Or to put it another way, lets say you try to show a Jehovah’s Witness about the Bible they will be very hard to convert because it is so ingrained into them. The same for a person who has been in the church and then goes back to worldly ways, they CAN be brought back but it is nearly impossible.

As you said in your last post: it isn’t very likely they will come back. I think we are on the same page just not saying the same words.
 
crazzeto said:
I read differently, that it simply isn’t very likely that they could come back.
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So then how does this fit in with being accepted again after falling away?

Romans 11:20-23 *“That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again". *

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
 
Mike2010 said:
wmscott;6841105:
So a person who was ‘saved’ years ago, who then proceeds to reject God, murder, worship satan, and lead people away from the Truth all the way to their deathbed, they will be saved?
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They have an exclusion clause to it. They will say that they were never really saved to begin with.
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Indeed.
 
wmscott said:
So then how does this fit in with being accepted again after falling away?

Romans 11:20-23 *“That is so. They were broken off because of unbelief, but you are there because of faith. So do not become haughty, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches, (perhaps) he will not spare you either. See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And they also, if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again". *

Rom. 11:20-23 – in expounding on Jesus’ teaching in John 15, Paul teaches that the Jews (the natural branches) were broken off by lack of faith (v.20), but says that the Romans stand fast through faith (v. 21). So the Romans are justified. However, Paul then says that the Romans can also be cut off if they don’t persevere in faith and kindness (v. 22-23). Hence, those justified before God can fall away from the faith and lose their salvation (be “cut off”). Paul also says that those who are cut off can be grafted back in if they do not persist in their unbelief, for God has the power to graft them in again (v.23). These verses are devastating to the “once saved, always saved” position.
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How does my statement not fit what you just posted? Please read it carefully, thanks.
 
Contarini said:
More often the claim is that such a person will not sin deliberately, habitually, and persistently. There’s some wiggle room there!

Edwin
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So if a person claimed to be saved but they just can’t seem to get over some persistent little sinful habit, they can know with certainty that they weren’t saved after all-with the same certainty they once had that they were saved?
 
fhansen said:
So if a person claimed to be saved but they just can’t seem to get over some persistent little sinful habit, they can know with certainty that they weren’t saved after all-with the same certainty they once had that they were saved?
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Hence the “deliberately” part. A person who struggles sincerely with a sinful habit may still be saved, but a person who just gives up and revels in their sinfulness clearly does not (according to this theology) have the Holy Spirit living in them. The distinction often made is that a believer will feel bad about their sinful habits. If you say that this is very weak, because most people feel bad when they do wrong, I would agree. I think it’s a rather weak dodge. But it’s something I have heard from the pulpit in Baptist churches.

I should probably have added “seriously.” Even though theoretically Protestants of this stripe claim that all sins are equal, when it comes to “what kinds of sins are signs that a person isn’t really saved” they almost always wind up reintroducing the distinction in a practical form. (Luther did as well, though he didn’t believe in OSAS so his case is a bit different.)

Not all OSAS folks think this way. Many of them, especially in the South, bite the bullet and say explicitly that a person who was once saved may spend years in a state of deliberate, serious sin, and die without repentance, and still go to heaven. Typically they will claim that God will discipline that person in this life, and may “kill them and take them home early” (some punishment:confused:). And of course the person will lose all their crowns.

I’m not really sure which of these views is held by more people. I’d like to say the former. I think probably the truth is that there is a spectrum–most OSAS folks think that a true believer will eventually show some signs of repentance (if they don’t die and untimely death) and will show some reluctance to sin, but they vary a lot on how much “slack” they will cut.

The bottom line for all OSAS folks (including real Calvinists there, though they claim to be different) is King David. If you believe in OSAS/perseverance, and if you apply Christian categories to the OT, and you believe that David was a believer before he sinned with Bathsheba (I can’t recall ever hearing someone deny this, but no doubt someone somewhere has!): then you have to grant that a believer may commit one serious sin, commit several others to cover up that one, and live in all outward appearance of contentment in that state of sin for at least a year or two.

Although Luther did not believe in OSAS, he does say in the Galatians commentary that David was a believer throughout this period. So he would come down with the Reformed in terms of just how long a believer might go before repenting (though he says explicitly in that same commentary that eventually such a person would cease to be a believer). However, later Lutherans insisted against the Reformed that David ceased to be a believer during this period.

Edwin
 
Contarini said:
More often the claim is that such a person will not sin deliberately, habitually, and persistently. There’s some wiggle room there!

Edwin
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actually, there can’t be. The comment was that no one could saved could rape, do satanic stuff, etc.

So, my question is…do people who are saved still sin?
 
wmscott said:
They have an exclusion clause to it. They will say that they were never really saved to begin with.
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I like to have fun with that one, too. I tend to ask if the person who “wasn’t really saved” actually thought he was saved at one time. This usually licits a yes or maybe which puts you a mere two moves away from the part when the insults start flying (in the right circles, at least).
 
Here’s what Father Corapi says about being saved ~ that he won’t know whether he is or not until he is in heaven.

And that’s the most accurate thing anyone can say about being saved!
 
Padrej said:
Maybe someday one of us on the CAF can make a difference in somebody’s life and they might change.
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There are several people on here who have made a positive difference in my life. I even specifically look for some of them to gleen new insights and more knowledge. I stumbled onto CAF when I was still an anti-Catholic looking for information on “Trail of Blood”. I started reading and was impressed with the level of scholarship and what I read was a tremendous help for the rest of my research. I got curious and started poking around the forums and found all sorts of interesting things. I was very surprised to find out that there are some places Catholics take the Bible way more literally than Baptists do (the Eucharist for one). I could go on and on about doctrine I have learned and about the incredible journey it has led me on. I had become a little stale in my faith because, frankly, fundamentalist doctrine is very shallow and usually anti-intellectual. I’m not some intellectual giant but I got more explanations from my drill instructors at Parris Island than I got from the vast majority of fundamentalist Pastors.

I do greatly appreciate the love of God’s Word I received from the Baptists. I also know that back in 1989 the verbal and non-verbal witness of my Baptist roommate saved my life and my soul when no one else seemed to care about either.
 
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