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Padrej
Guest
OOOOOO I like that tactic. I am going to have to try that one.
My Pastor said, "anyone who questions OSAS is saying that Jesus death on the cross was insufficient and even worthless and that is blasphemy."
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Padrej
Guest
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Springkeeper
Guest
That is exactly my church’s position! I have heard I don’t know how many times that so and so made a profession of faith when he/she was 12 (13, whatever) left the church and has been living like the Devil himself but at least he/she is saved and will go (or went) to heaven when he dies(or died)! I even heard a man state that his son had formally renounced his faith and willfully and deliberately committed serious sins and the Father was 100% convinced the son was still going to heaven because he had made an earnest profession of faith as an 11 year old.Not all OSAS folks think this way. Many of them, especially in the South, bite the bullet and say explicitly that a person who was once saved may spend years in a state of deliberate, serious sin, and die without repentance, and still go to heaven. Typically they will claim that God will discipline that person in this life, and may “kill them and take them home early” (some punishment). And of course the person will lose all their crowns.
I never understood the whole idea of God saying “you totally turned your back on me and spent the rest of your life willfully and deliberately sinning against me in every way you could and were the worst Christian witness ever so to punish you I’m going to bring you home to heaven and comfort you and wipe every tear from your eyes.” :dts:
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Cairisti
Guest
Scary thing is … that is what the church that my brother attends professses and my brother adheres to that. He even thinks that atheists will go to Heaven if they once said the sinners prayer.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
It’s scary–how deceived somepeople can be. Nothing sadder then when I went to a new co-worker’s husbands funeral. He was killed suddenly and quite young. It was at his son’s church (where they have drive in services–but that is another story). She said…oh he would have liked the short service…which really ended up being more about his son, because he didn’t really go to church or anything…“I mean, he was saved,…but he just didn’t like going to church or to pray”. I think he thought that was it…get saved…your done…nothing more required. Very sad indeed…:bighanky:
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Padrej
Guest
Many say things like “How can a loving God send a person to Hell?” The problem with that statement is that we put ourselves there by our own free will. Or many do not remember Jesus’ saying that “Not everyone who calls me Lord, Lord will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.” HMMM sounds to me like that one time profession does not cut it.
To your comment: I even heard a man state that his son had formally renounced his faith and willfully and deliberately committed serious sins and the Father was 100% convinced the son was still going to heaven because he had made an earnest profession of faith as an 11 year old. I would like to say, What is blaspheming the Holy Spirit all about? That is supposed to be the only unpardonable sin. If you have turned your back on God an deliberate action against the Holy Spirit where is that going to put you?
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Springkeeper
Guest
Believe it or not, they are part of a group who believes that “blaspheming the Holy Spirit” is when you refuse to get saved in the first place, that since Jesus Christ payed for all of our sins past, present, and future-there is absolutely no sin that can be committed that will “separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” and cause you to go to hell.
The only exemption I have seen (although it is not directly stated)-is that if you stop believing in OSAS than all bets are off.
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Moro_Rock
Guest
Jesus’ death on the Cross made Salvation available .
The rest is up to us.
We must " work out our salvation in fear and trembling "
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Padrej
Guest
This also I have never heard in the eternal salvation and OSAS crowd. If we need to “work out” our salvation this sounds like it is more than just that one time event of a sinner’s prayer. Most of the OSAS people in run into make a point that they only have to say the prayer and poof yo are in no works after that. And if you fall away, “you were never really saved to begin with.” I would love to hear theoldman expound on this further.Jesus’ death on the Cross made Salvation available .
The rest is up to us.
We must " work out our salvation in fear and trembling "
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MelanieAnne
Guest
People can theorize all they want. You have to always wonder about the “theory”.
The FACT is that we need to do the best we can. There is no such thing as “always saved” so, just as the Bible says, we need to work out our own salvation.
We don’t work this out collectively. It’s not a “group” experience. We work it out alone. We do the best we can by ourselves. And then we keep doing that.
And then we hope. We hope for salvation. No one has a guarantee and anyone who says they do is, at best, misguided.
The FACT is that we need to do the best we can. There is no such thing as “always saved” so, just as the Bible says, we need to work out our own salvation.
We don’t work this out collectively. It’s not a “group” experience. We work it out alone. We do the best we can by ourselves. And then we keep doing that.
And then we hope. We hope for salvation. No one has a guarantee and anyone who says they do is, at best, misguided.
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Annabelle_Marie
Guest
Why is it that anyone questioning OSAS is blasphemy and yet these same people have no problem trying to double baptise us? I mean…isn’t that saying that because I was baptized as an infant…that the Holy Spirit didn’t do his work and now they have to baptize again?
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Church_Militant
Guest
That scripturally incorrect because Jesus Himself told us that that unforgivable sin was attributing actions of the Holy Spirit/miracles from God to the devil.
The Catholic Church also refers to this as “final obstinacy” I think, which is persisting in willful disbelief even to the point of death.
Matthew 12:22-31
22 Then was offered to him one possessed with a devil, blind and dumb: and he healed him, so that he spoke and saw.
23 And all the multitudes were amazed, and said: Is not this the son of David?
24 But the Pharisees hearing it, said: This man casteth not out the devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
25 And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.http://www.veritasbible.com/resources/sacred_scripture_shortcuts/categories/Church/Church+is+One
26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?
27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.
28 But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.
29 Or how can any one enter into the house of the strong, and rifle his goods, unless he first bind the strong? and then he will rifle his house.
30 He that is not with me, is against me: and he that gathereth not with me, scattereth.
31 Therefore I say to you: Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven men, but the blasphemy of the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but he that shall speak against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, nor in the world to come.
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Church_Militant
Guest
That’s because they do not believe infant baptism is valid. Most proponents of this, also adhere to “believer’s baptism”, meaning that you have to be old enough to “get saved” . Moreover, although baptism is strongly recommended, they generally will teach that it is not necessary for salvation.Why is it that anyone questioning OSAS is blasphemy and yet these same people have no problem trying to double baptize us? I mean…isn’t that saying that because I was baptized as an infant…that the Holy Spirit didn’t do his work and now they have to baptize again?
None of which is actually scriptural.
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Church_Militant
Guest
Which kinda contradicts the following parable doesn’t it?Scary thing is … that is what the church that my brother attends professses and my brother adheres to that. He even thinks that atheists will go to Heaven if they once said the sinners prayer.
Matthew 13:1] That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat beside the sea.
2] And great crowds gathered about him, so that he got into a boat and sat there; and the whole crowd stood on the beach.
3] And he told them many things in parables, saying: “A sower went out to sow.
4] And as he sowed, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.
5] Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they had not much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil,
6] but when the sun rose they were scorched; and since they had no root they withered away.
7] Other seeds fell upon thorns, and the thorns grew up and choked them.
8] Other seeds fell on good soil and brought forth grain, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9] He who has ears, let him hear.”
10] Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?”
11] And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given.
12] For to him who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away.
13] This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
14] With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah which says: `You shall indeed hear but never understand,
and you shall indeed see but never perceive.
15] For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are heavy of hearing,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should perceive with their eyes,
and hear with their ears,
and understand with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them.’
16] But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
17] Truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous men longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
18] “Hear then the parable of the sower.
19] When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
20] As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;
21] yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
22] As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
23] As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
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Holly3278
Guest
Once saved, always saved is a false doctrine. Many Southern and Fundamentalist Baptist churches teach it. The following link has a number of verses on losing salvation:
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV
scripturecatholic.com/salvation.html#salvation-IV
po18guy
Well-known member
I love your analogy of being “fruit inspector”, rather than judge (in another thread). Inspired.
As to the matter at hand, Jesus simply watched as many who had followed Him left and resumed their prior lives (John 6:66). He tried neither to call them back nor to convince them that they had somehow misunderstood his teaching on the Bread of Life. Jesus did not shout after them that they all risked hell for turning away - even though they surely did. Peter alone spoke for those remaining who were willing to stand for the words of life. Not too surprisingly, it appears that Peter had these same folks in mind when he wrote 2 Peter 2:20 - wherein they were worse off now than before they heard the Gospel.
For those of us laboring under the burden of a fallen nature, the mark of truth is that it is difficult to accept and easy to reject. The denial of self and the taking up of one’s cross must be accomplished before we are to follow our Lord along the path which He has revealed for our salvation. This amounts to a three-fold denial of the self.
As well, a sign of the true Church is that it is difficult to join (“these are hard sayings, who can accept them?”) and that is is likewise easy to leave. If threats or condemnation accompany one’s decision to leave, it should serve only to reinforce the correctness of that decision.
po18guy
Well-known member
God has two hands: Mercy and Justice. How many times we look to the hand of mercy to restrain the hand of justice! Justice is what we deserve - mercy is what we pray for.
po18guy
Well-known member
Our Lord spoke of plucking an eye out or cutting a hand off if it causes us to sin (Mark 9:43-48). - that it is better to have a partial body in heaven than a complete body in hell. We, the Church, are all members of His Body, as Paul wrote (1 Corinthians 12:27 and others). The Church as a Body seeks eternity in God’s presence. Should some have to be cut off, it is still counted as gain in the Lord’s eyes. As well, Christ is the vine and we, His branches. He teaches us that branches which do not bear good fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire (John 15:1-6).
This produces little comfort for those who hold to a strict form of OSAS. It is quite possibly this discomfort that produced the pastor’s negative response to the OP.
This produces little comfort for those who hold to a strict form of OSAS. It is quite possibly this discomfort that produced the pastor’s negative response to the OP.
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Padrej
Guest
That is an EXCELLENT link!!!
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Padrej
Guest
I will have to admit that you wrote something that I have not noticed in 22 years in ministry; that was your line quoting John 6:66.
You are correct Jesus DID NOT go after them and condemn them. I think the passage does show his concern for those who do want to follow Him in that he asks them “Do you want to leave also?” It makes me to think how many times does God reveal something to us in scripture and it becomes a “hard saying to us” and we shy away from it; the same goes with the spoken word from the pulpit. I had one gentlemen complain that I “preached him out of church.” The problem is, others took what I preached on and learned from it and told him so. I think we can come up with any excuse to not to have to change when the light of the Gospel hits us and we have to see whether our deeds are dark or light as John’s Gospel also puts it.
Thank you for helping me to grow in my faith.
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