I
IdaCatholic
Guest
SOME protestansts believe we are saved by faith ALONE. That works don’t matter.
- Status
G
goout
Guest
The Church makes the case that the atheist who is saved (we’d have to argue over semantics here)…po18guy:
People say this, but is it really true? Doesn’t the church hold that people who have no faith (ie, they weren’t raised in the faith and noone ever made a convincing argument to them for God’s existence) but live a good life can be saved? Or at least the church doesn’t say definitively that they can’t be saved.
So if those “good atheists” can potentially be saved, but don’t have faith, all they can have that makes them good is good works right? So in that case good works would count toward their salvation.
In any event an unbeliever who is saved did in fact receive and act on the gift of faith and cooperated with it in a way that might not be visible to the world.
N
nfinke
Guest
You lost me in saying an unbeliever acted on the gift of faith. That seems like a contradiction in terms.
I’ve heard similar arguments in the vein of 'noone who does good things or is a good person can really not have faith, even if they actively deny God’s existence", but that really seems like a lame argument and a twisting of the rules to me.
I’ve heard similar arguments in the vein of 'noone who does good things or is a good person can really not have faith, even if they actively deny God’s existence", but that really seems like a lame argument and a twisting of the rules to me.
Last edited:
E
EndTimes
Guest
That is understood via the Spirit…
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Romans 2…
Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. Romans 2…
H
Hodos
Guest
It doesn’t sound Protestant-like, it sounds Christian, specifically Pauline in its doctrine. This is the catholic faith that was handed down to us by the apostles and affirmed by the Church fathers. If this is what your priest was teaching then perhaps there is hope that the Church can once again be united in doctrine and practice. I would celebrate if I were you.
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
The Roman Catholic Church teaches that we’ll be judged by that fruit, i.e. on our love. That has always been the Christian doctrine and practice.
Last edited:
T
TK421
Guest
I don’t know why this topic still gets discussed so much today. It’s very old and the argument comes out of a guy who had extreme fear of hell and wanted to be able to sleep at night again. He didn’t even want the book of James to be in the Bible.
The Catholic Church has always believed in the saving power of faith. Works are a sign of faith so the two are inseparable. There’s nothing odd about what the priest said.
The Catholic Church has always believed in the saving power of faith. Works are a sign of faith so the two are inseparable. There’s nothing odd about what the priest said.
Last edited:
L
Lazybones
Guest
In Jn 5:29 He says those who have done good will go to the resurrection of life and those who have done evil will go to the resurrection of judgement.
Revelation has something similar; Matt or Mk has similar and Peter has similar also.
The Catholic interpretation of ‘believe’ is an active one, not just a rational acceptance of something…like 2+2=4.
Revelation has something similar; Matt or Mk has similar and Peter has similar also.
The Catholic interpretation of ‘believe’ is an active one, not just a rational acceptance of something…like 2+2=4.
M
MagdalenaRita
Guest
Faith is just a starting point, a foundation. After that it is a process. We were saved when we were baptized. We are being saved as we cooperate with the grace of God by our obedience to the commands Christ gave us and we hope to be saved by dying in a state of grace.
Last edited:
A
anneramones
Guest
it gets discussed because I’m allowed to have questions maybe ?
M
Michael16
Guest
@anneramones
It’s okay to have and ask questions. I’m a little disturbed by what your priest said at Mass. We are saved by both faith and works with love and doing what Jesus commands as the deciding factor; IMHO.
When I read Sacred Scripture; I consistently see the important role of works in our salvation. It’s a process of faith, which is an operative faith, i.e. I believe; this I must do and this shows that works are required for our salvation; and not mere intellectual assent; and works combined in tandem. The danger I see in Sola Fide is the potential for the holder of such a doctrine is to fall back on only believing and not doing; as Jesus teaches us that only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter heaven.
Another reference I can give you is in next Sunday’s Gospel reading in which Zaccabeus, a wealthy tax collector; said he is going to give half his property to the poor and return four times what he took in taxes. Jesus’ response: By this, you and your household are saved today.
Plus: Any clear reading of Sacred Scripture shows just how unscriptural Sola Fide is.
It’s okay to have and ask questions. I’m a little disturbed by what your priest said at Mass. We are saved by both faith and works with love and doing what Jesus commands as the deciding factor; IMHO.
When I read Sacred Scripture; I consistently see the important role of works in our salvation. It’s a process of faith, which is an operative faith, i.e. I believe; this I must do and this shows that works are required for our salvation; and not mere intellectual assent; and works combined in tandem. The danger I see in Sola Fide is the potential for the holder of such a doctrine is to fall back on only believing and not doing; as Jesus teaches us that only those who do the Father’s Will shall enter heaven.
Another reference I can give you is in next Sunday’s Gospel reading in which Zaccabeus, a wealthy tax collector; said he is going to give half his property to the poor and return four times what he took in taxes. Jesus’ response: By this, you and your household are saved today.
Plus: Any clear reading of Sacred Scripture shows just how unscriptural Sola Fide is.
Last edited:
L
luvzkittenz
Guest
He’s not wrong to say we are saved by faith, but if he had said faith alone, then he would have been wrong. (it also depends what he meant in his heart when he said “faith.”)
I think the thing is, the Catholic definition of faith is not just believing, but actions that show you truly believe. The Protestant definition is just believe (I think). So if a Catholic says we are saved by faith, it doesn’t mean the same thing.
I think the thing is, the Catholic definition of faith is not just believing, but actions that show you truly believe. The Protestant definition is just believe (I think). So if a Catholic says we are saved by faith, it doesn’t mean the same thing.
Last edited:
B
blueonion
Guest
Some may have forgotten about this and maybe some priest/pastor havent read this yet.
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
“Faith Alone” is just like a Marketing front to be “Different” but its process is still the same as the Catholic put it. Remember that we as human can’t do or process different thoughts at the same time. So we all still go through the same process. So “faith and works” are not meant to suggest that we are judge in both separate ways but in one single entity as many have pointed this out already.
There can be a lot of confusion with the usage of words to define this topic. But really, just be baptized and be guided by the Church to stay complete. So how do you determine the right church? answer is “Unity”. A body with severed parts doesn’t form a complete Person. Imperfect parts connected to its Body no matter how imperfect it maybe still gives completeness.
You can imagine a person is being the cells of the church and the driving force that makes it living is the Spirit of God. Its oneness makes it function as one. Severing it makes it weaker.
Faith can be viewed as “being one”. So without oneness how can we still call it “Faith”
Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification:
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
“Faith Alone” is just like a Marketing front to be “Different” but its process is still the same as the Catholic put it. Remember that we as human can’t do or process different thoughts at the same time. So we all still go through the same process. So “faith and works” are not meant to suggest that we are judge in both separate ways but in one single entity as many have pointed this out already.
There can be a lot of confusion with the usage of words to define this topic. But really, just be baptized and be guided by the Church to stay complete. So how do you determine the right church? answer is “Unity”. A body with severed parts doesn’t form a complete Person. Imperfect parts connected to its Body no matter how imperfect it maybe still gives completeness.
You can imagine a person is being the cells of the church and the driving force that makes it living is the Spirit of God. Its oneness makes it function as one. Severing it makes it weaker.
Faith can be viewed as “being one”. So without oneness how can we still call it “Faith”
Last edited:
B
Brian_K
Guest
I believe we are saved by grace, through faith, and good works are the physical manifestation of charity/love, which allows us to physically experience the spiritual reality, and which God may reckon as meritorious behavior. Faith and works make us open to grace, but grace is what “does the saving”, to put it empirically.
B
blueonion
Guest
We can also put it like this.
Imagine your self to be a CREATOR, the OMEGA. And parts of your body (cells) are taken out to make something living and breathing. Then at the end you want those evolved parts to be back in your place.
Imagine if only some returned and others weren’t present. You will ask “Where are the others?”
So I don’t really think we should be thinking of being saved “Alone” but being saved as a whole. If we believe “all of us” have the same spirit of God, then we should all return as ONE. No one should think that they must be saved just themselves, it is boasting. We have to go there all together because we don’t really own our life. We have to return to the original Body… the Body of Christ.
Imagine your self to be a CREATOR, the OMEGA. And parts of your body (cells) are taken out to make something living and breathing. Then at the end you want those evolved parts to be back in your place.
Imagine if only some returned and others weren’t present. You will ask “Where are the others?”
So I don’t really think we should be thinking of being saved “Alone” but being saved as a whole. If we believe “all of us” have the same spirit of God, then we should all return as ONE. No one should think that they must be saved just themselves, it is boasting. We have to go there all together because we don’t really own our life. We have to return to the original Body… the Body of Christ.
Last edited:
T
Taras_Bulba
Guest
Um, God created everything out of nothing, not out of cells of his body…
B
blueonion
Guest
It is an Analogy @Taras_Bulba 
F
fhansen
Guest
And yet, according to the Church, at the end of our lives we’ll be judged on our love, faith having served its purpose to the extent that it’s brought us to that point. And, yes, it’s all a matter of grace, and our cooperation with it.
Last edited:
M
mdgspencer
Guest
.
I like what the Council of Trent said–faith is the beginning of salvation.
So salvation begins with faith, though our good works are important too.
The first Protestants said that good works are not important in leading us to salvation, but from the first appearance of this view, the Catholic Church insisted that good works are vital to salvation too.
I like what the Council of Trent said–faith is the beginning of salvation.
So salvation begins with faith, though our good works are important too.
The first Protestants said that good works are not important in leading us to salvation, but from the first appearance of this view, the Catholic Church insisted that good works are vital to salvation too.
Last edited:
F
fhansen
Guest
God doesn’t need our good works -or our involvement; God wants them-for our own good, for our increase in righteousness/godliness/justice and our attainment of eternal life. From the catechism:
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
2007 With regard to God, there is no strict right to any merit on the part of man. Between God and us there is an immeasurable inequality, for we have received everything from him, our Creator.
2008 The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace.
2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God’s wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Prayer attends to the grace we need for meritorious actions.
Last edited:
- Status