My Priest says the miracles weren't really miracles?

[Herve]

Hi,

if most of your priest’s preachings are around the theme “the bible is an image to help us share with others” or “the new testament is not saying what it looks like it is saying”, and if this makes you feel uncomfortable, I would look for another parish…

Personally I like to believe miracles described in the scriptures are real, but only to reflect a more profound truth - maybe in this instance about the Eurcharist, and the Christ feeding the world. Certainly it has a deeper meaning than the sharing, because you don’t have to be a christian to share.

What always strikes me though, is that Jesus said we would accomplish greater miracles than he did, but I have never seen anyone performing any miracles. Would that be because of our lack of faith?

 

[juliamajor]

The Loaves and the fishes can be both a miracle of fellowship and of multiplying food and the idea God takes care of all our needs and feeds us both physically and spiritually which leads us ultimately to the Miracle of the Eucharist where again Christ feeds us both physically and spiritually but with a far superior food-His body and Blood.

 

[Ranp]

What always strikes me though, is that Jesus said we would accomplish greater miracles than he did, but I have never seen anyone performing any miracles. Would that be because of our lack of faith?

Some times it is just a simple problem of recognizing miracles. In the 1980s I watched a Pope support a group of shipbuilders in their push for freedom in his home country, which lead to the tearing down of one of the greatest barriers to faith and freedom the world has every known. There was no flash of light, no thunder in the clouds, but for those of my generation who grew up knowing of the Iron Curtain it was indeed a miracle. How could I not believe that Jesus was not a work in our modern world.

Peace,

 

[Kay_Cee]

You know, the “sharing” theory has to be one of the dumbest explanations I have ever heard. It requires us to believe two outrageous things:

1. Since there were enough leftovers to fill twelve wicker baskets, you have to believe there was already more than enough food there. The only place it could be was in concealment under their clothing and in their knapsacks. Since thousands were fed, thousands had to be hiding food. This would mean almost everybody there would have already had food on his person.
2. The Jews were so impressed with Jesus getting them to take out this food and share it that they wanted to cart him off and crown him king in defiance of the Romans. (John 6:1-15) They were willing to risk their lives, and the lives of everyone they loved, because they were so overcome by learning about sharing–a concept they apparently hadn’t known before.

Yeah, right.

 

[Disciple4Christ]

I have the highest respect for the priesthood and also many many Holy orthodox priests I have known. That said I also would like to remind you they are human as well.
And being human can also make mistakes they are not infallable. That is reserved for the Pope and then only under very special and rare circumstances.
You should be respectful to him even if he is wrong maybe you could find a way to show him his error respectfully. We all make mistakes and this idea is circulating through the New Age movement and such.
If you cannot resolve it peacefully with him I suggest taking it up a notch to Diocese level
he will listen to the Bishop.

Pray on this issue before you do anything and do it only in the Spirit of love not anger.

My prayers are with you.

 

[Disciple4Christ]

Hi,
What always strikes me though, is that Jesus said we would accomplish greater miracles than he did, but I have never seen anyone performing any miracles. Would that be because of our lack of faith?

Have you been to Mass lately or had any of the Sacraments: Eucharist, Reconciliation,Baptism, Confirmation, Annointing …??? Over 1 Billion Catholics Worldwide might this be considered a Greater thing. To bad many Catholics cannot even begin to realize the Miracles that happens everyday in the Chruch.

When the veil is lifted and we see what is really happening in our Mass with all the Angels and Saints then we will fall to our faces in humility.

 

[JRforhope]

Ditto what everyone said.

Depends on what the priest means by ‘miracle’

He might be trying to be clever - as in everything is via God so nothing is REALLY a miracle.

Unfortunately this approach is being interpreted as the Father denying central facts of the faith.

If he is a non believer as someone suggested above ie that a consecrated host is really still 100% bread & not the Body Blood & Divinity with the accidents left, then the problem is affecting the whole community.

Feel free to contact the Bishop’s office to complain if the Priest is really being a blatant anti-Catholic. Maybe he needs extra help & only the Bishop can restore him.

Hope this helps.

 

[Ranp]

If you cannot resolve it peacefully with him I suggest taking it up a notch to Diocese level [as] he will listen to the Bishop.

Pray on this issue before you do anything and do it only in the Spirit of love not anger.

My prayers are with you.

Most excellent advice.

 

[Hunho]

I have to say that I’m slowly having my spirit crushed in this parish, and when I told some other Catholic I was told that my priest is preaching heresy.

Just for one example - the miracle of the fish and the loaves. We were told that the real “miracle” was just getting people to share. That women with children and families would have been gathering there, and in lack of Mickey Ds back then - would have brought their own food and drink and that all it was, was one big potluck.

Is there an official church teaching on this matter somewhere? would the Pope say that it was a true miracle or just a picnic-pot-luck?

The Navarre Bible’s notes on the feeding of the 5000 (Matthew 14:14-21) includes this comment: “In the Near East loaves were usually made very thin, which meant it was easy to break them by hand and distribute them to those at table; this was usually done by the head of the household or the senior person at the meal. Our Lord follows this custom, and the miracle occurs when Jesus breaks the bread. The disciples then distribute it among the crowd. [emphasis added]” In commenting on the feeding of the 4000 (Matthew 15:32-39) the commentators in the Navarre Bible note that “[a]ll Jesus’ miracles, in addition to being concrete historical events, are also symbols of supernatural realities. Here abundance of material food also signifies abundance of divine gifts on the level of grace and glory: it refers to spiritual resources and eternal rewards . . …” If you can find a papal encyclical or a commentary in the papal audiences on the feeding of the multitudes that might carry more authority than the commentaries by the staff of the University of Navarre. I seriously doubt, however, that such comments would be in disagreement with what I quoted from the Navarre Bible.

 

[BuffaloNickels]

I have the highest respect for the priesthood and also many many Holy orthodox priests I have known. That said I also would like to remind you they are human as well.
And being human can also make mistakes they are not infallable. That is reserved for the Pope and then only under very special and rare circumstances.
You should be respectful to him even if he is wrong maybe you could find a way to show him his error respectfully. We all make mistakes and this idea is circulating through the New Age movement and such.
If you cannot resolve it peacefully with him I suggest taking it up a notch to Diocese level
he will listen to the Bishop.

Pray on this issue before you do anything and do it only in the Spirit of love not anger.

My prayers are with you.

I do realize that they are human. I only came here asking this question because there are a LOT of things that this priest does that are against church teaching. I was looking for information if this really was church teaching or not.

We are done with this particular priest and parish for many reasons. I have been praying for him and the associate priests daily since August when I was witness to a sermon on how wrong the Church is on other matters. (fundamental beliefs of the RCC)

I just recently tried to have a civalized converstaion - an inquisitive one, not accusatory - and I was berrated, belittled and yelled at. I wasn’t allowed to get a word in edgewise for 10 minutes all because I asked one simple question. And I honestly was just looking for a conversation, and was open to hearing that I was on the wrong path with my thought process - I just wanted to have it explained to me in an educated rational manner but was yelled at instead.

I probably will write a letter to our bishop, but I am not angry about it, I’m just looking forward to moving on and finding a parish who is willing to lead us in the faith as the Church teaches is.

 

[patg]

I probably will write a letter to our bishop, but I am not angry about it, I’m just looking forward to moving on and finding a parish who is willing to lead us in the faith as the Church teaches is.

Then don’t use this as an example of not leading as the Church teaches.

Many parishes use the book “And God Said What?:* An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms*” as the text in their adult scripture education classes - you might want to take a look.

 

[DCNBILL]

One way to refute this false analysis of this miracle is to point out the fact that the people would have indeed packed up their pockets and any other containers they had with any remaining food that would have been left over, (waste not want not). The fact that there was enough for all to fill themselves, their pockets and bags with still some left over on the ground, points to the wonderful abundance that Christ supplies to us.

The Peace of Christ to all.

bill

 

[patg]

One way to refute this false analysis of this miracle is to point out the fact that the people would have indeed packed up their pockets and any other containers they had with any remaining food that would have been left over, (waste not want not). The fact that there was enough for all to fill themselves, their pockets and bags with still some left over on the ground, points to the wonderful abundance that Christ supplies to us.

Yes, that makes it a powerful story inerrantly teaching a great truth…but that doesn’t make it a literalistic event.

 

[BuffaloNickels]

Then don’t use this as an example of not leading as the Church teaches.

Many parishes use the book “And God Said What?:* An Introduction to Biblical Literary Forms*” as the text in their adult scripture education classes - you might want to take a look.

I have already said that this is not our only issue with this parish/priest. His transgrestions far exceed this difference in opinion over scripture interpretation. I was just coming here to find out if the CHURCH teaches that the miracles trully were miraculous in a “magical” sort of way - not in a parable sort of way. It was something that I wanted to know for my own edification - not as ammo against this priest.

 

[Disciple4Christ]

Ok let me have 1 more stab at this. I copied and pasted from this very sit so I am also posting the source.

THE FOLLOWING IS TAKEN FROM:
catholic.com/thisrock/1996/9604fea1.asp

"The only problem with this theory is that it is not an interpretation of Scripture at all. It is an invention, inserted into Scripture. It teaches a false gospel, that people can become morally better, not by the supernatural grace of Jesus, but by seeing the *example *of Jesus. In conveying that message, and because of the interconnectedness of Christian teaching, it undermines the dogmas of the divinity of Christ, the Real Presence in the Eucharist, and the sacramental role of the priesthood.

The first assertion about it, that it is an invention rather than an interpretation of Scripture, is the easiest to demonstrate. The Catechism of the Catholic Church, in speaking on the interpretation of Scripture, tells us that, “according to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual” (CCC 115).

In the literal sense we look at the words and the intent of the inspired writer to see what Christ actually said and did during his public ministry. In the spiritual sense we look deeper in a number of ways to see what Christ is teaching us by way of his words and deeds. The *Catechism *goes on to quoteThomas Aquinas, who observed that, when we speak of the various senses of Scripture, “all other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal” (CCC 116)."

I HOPE THIS HELPS

 

[garysibio]

I have to say that I’m slowly having my spirit crushed in this parish, and when I told some other Catholic I was told that my priest is preaching heresy.

Just for one example - the miracle of the fish and the loaves. We were told that the real “miracle” was just getting people to share. That women with children and families would have been gathering there, and in lack of Mickey Ds back then - would have brought their own food and drink and that all it was, was one big potluck.

Is there an official church teaching on this matter somewhere? would the Pope say that it was a true miracle or just a picnic-pot-luck?

Don’t worry about it. Your priest is wrong.

 

[Supercatholic]

I have to say that I’m slowly having my spirit crushed in this parish, and when I told some other Catholic I was told that my priest is preaching heresy.

Just for one example - the miracle of the fish and the loaves. We were told that the real “miracle” was just getting people to share. That women with children and families would have been gathering there, and in lack of Mickey Ds back then - would have brought their own food and drink and that all it was, was one big potluck.

Is there an official church teaching on this matter somewhere? would the Pope say that it was a true miracle or just a picnic-pot-luck?

BuffaloNickels, My sibling in Christ. I too am going through this spirit and faith crushing heretical teaching. Let’s both pray for each other to get this behind us. I was fortunate to find that the parish right near where I work teaches the truth on this matter. Jesus multiplied loaves and fish. He didn’t shame a bunch of miser jews to share their hidden food covered by lead lined robes that Jesus couldn’t see through with his x-ray vision. The problem I’m dealing with now is my brother and my mom are telling me that I’m supposed to have an allegiance to my local parish that preaches ignorance and lies just because we live near there instead of going to where the truth is proclaimed. I have two other posts similar to this subject I have addressed. Click on my user name and you can read them. They’re both very recent.

 

[The_Exodus]

Yes, that makes it a powerful story inerrantly teaching a great truth…but that doesn’t make it a literalistic event.

If, when the Scriptures describe Jesus performing miracles, he in fact never did them, they are nothing more than fairy tales and falsities. There is no such thing as a “true” or “factual” fiction, whatever “meaning” one may draw from it.

Those who disbelieve in the miracles of Christ are unorthodox and heretical, for they must also deny the greatest miracles of all: his resurrection, ascension, and deity.

 

[grannymh]

I have to say that I’m slowly having my spirit crushed in this parish, and when I told some other Catholic I was told that my priest is preaching heresy.

Just for one example - the miracle of the fish and the loaves. We were told that the real “miracle” was just getting people to share. That women with children and families would have been gathering there, and in lack of Mickey Ds back then - would have brought their own food and drink and that all it was, was one big potluck.

Is there an official church teaching on this matter somewhere? would the Pope say that it was a true miracle or just a picnic-pot-luck?

Good grief. The picnic-pot-luck idea is from a book on the best seller list, late 1940’s or early 1950’s.

The actual heresy is a version of Arianism – however, as long as the priest does not deny the Catholic dogma Jesus as True God and True Man, what you are hearing is his personal very misguided opinion. Read the Gospels and let your love for Jesus as True God guide you.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception

 

[patg]

If, when the Scriptures describe Jesus performing miracles, he in fact never did them, they are nothing more than fairy tales and falsities.

There is no way of knowing if "in fact" he did them. You need to read the *Instruction on the Historical Truth of the Gospels *(available online). The gospels are not eyewitness accounts of history but the stories of miracles still tell us a lot about Jesus and what the authors thought of him whether they actually occured or not.

There is no such thing as a “true” or “factual” fiction, whatever “meaning” one may draw from it.

Yes there is - “fiction” is not a synonym for lying, it defines the literary form of the story just like the terms myth, legend, etc. There are many great truths expressed in fiction.

Those who disbelieve in the miracles of Christ are unorthodox and heretical,

Only if the church dogmatically requires belief in their historicity.

…for they must also deny the greatest miracles of all: his resurrection, ascension, and deity.

No, they “must” not - the church requires belief in those miracles. And there is no universal law stating that because one believes one way about a particular thing, they must believe the same way about every related thing.

By the way, this thread is almost a year old - it is probably better to start new threads in situations like this.