My problem with church teaching on baptism

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When the Vatican recently moved away from teaching limbo (the punishment of innocents, not the dance). They taught that we can hope that God will embrace them as his own.

That is part of what I meant to convey by saying Mary was unbaptized. The mother who raised Jesus did not need baptism to share in the life of the trinity, she shared her own life with him for 9 months so he could live a human life. God loves her, preserves her from original sin, does everything baptism might do for her, from the moment of her conception.

If God can love his mother that much, God can love other innocents enough to embrace them with love.
 
Dovekin said:
When the Vatican recently moved away from teaching limbo (the punishment of innocents, not the dance). They taught that we can hope that God will embrace them as his own.
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Yes, this. The Church teaches that we entrust these little ones who have died to God’s mercy, since He is not bound by the Sacraments. The Church cannot officially declare they are in Heaven, but I’ve never met a person in real life who didn’t believe that they were.

I also lost a baby to miscarriage, and I trust in Jesus’ mercy for my little one. The Good Shepherd knows every star by name and every baby born…He knows how to take care of His own.

For older children and adults who die without baptism, it is similar. We pray for their souls and entrust them to God. He knows if they truly were loving and following Him, or if they would have loved Him had they known about Him.

The Church teaches that since God is not bound by the Sacraments, He can still save those who are deserving of eternal life. He has perfect judgement and knows all hearts. Salvation is only through Jesus, but we trust in His mercy for the ignorant.

However, it’s another reminder of the importance of evangelization and prayer.
LateCatholic said:
If I sound angry (or was in my previous post) - I am. I still consider myself a Catholic (although I realize many here doubt my sincerity when they read my posts). But I experienced some of the above events with loved ones. If you are telling me those souls are not accepted by God, then this is a religion I want no part of.
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I understand why you would feel this way with some who have shown little compassion. Pray for the souls of your lost loved ones and offer up Mass for them when you attend. It is never too late to pray for them, and trust in God’s mercy.
 
LateCatholic said:
So those infants aborted, or died due to a miscarriage, or perhaps children whose parents didn’t baptize them and died young, not to mention every non-Catholic throughout the world - they all do not go to heaven?
That is the “only” controversy? That they “may or may not” suffer? That God cares not for their souls?
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CCC 1261 says that we have hope that God will save them and even points out the Church’s behavior tends towards believing He will. It’s consistent with Who He is, but He hasn’t revealed the finer details to us, beyond that the grace normally given in baptism is given outside of it.
 
Read the Encyclical “Effraenatum” by Pope Sixtus V against abortionists.

“Who will not detest such an abhorrent and evil act, by which are lost not only the bodies but also the souls? Who will not condemn to a most grave punishment the impiety of him who will exclude a soul created in the image of God and for which Our Lord Jesus Christ has shed His precious Blood, and which is capable of eternal happiness and is destined to be in the company of angels, from the blessed vision of God, and who has impeded as much as he could the filling up of heavenly mansions (left vacant by the fallen angels), and has taken away the service to God by His creature?”

And the Catechism of Trent-

Necessity of Baptism​

“If the knowledge of what has been hitherto explained be, as it is, of highest importance to the faithful, it is no less important to them to learn that the law of Baptism, as established by our Lord, extends to all, so that unless they are regenerated to God through the grace of Baptism, be their parents Christians or infidels, they are born to eternal misery and destruction. Pastors, therefore, should often explain these words of the Gospel: Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Infant Baptism: It’s Necessity​

That this law extends not only to adults but also to infants and children, and that the Church has received this from Apostolic tradition, is confirmed by the unanimous teaching and authority of the Fathers.

That’s the Church’s teaching. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. But God is sovereign and Chuldren are not born innocent. Read the book of Romans. Read the council of Trent, session 3.
 
We must adore the justice of God because it is good and believe in his goodness in all his acts.
 
ZMystiCat said:
CCC 1261 says that we have hope that God will save them and even points out the Church’s behavior tends towards believing He will. It’s consistent with Who He is, but He hasn’t revealed the finer details to us, beyond that the grace normally given in baptism is given outside of it.
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So you are admitting it is possible innocent babies can go to Hell to suffer?
We can “hope” that God isn’t that cruel and horrific? Not very encouraging.
I, personally, think baptism is not a requirement for salvation. It is only ceremonial. Hence I am a “late” Catholic.
 
ShowersofRoses said:
The Church teaches that since God is not bound by the Sacraments, He can still save those who are deserving of eternal life. He has perfect judgement and knows all hearts. Salvation is only through Jesus, but we trust in His mercy for the ignorant.
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Which is exactly why I think baptism is only ceremonial. God is not vindictive. He’s not cruel. If you don’t get baptized, it’s not big deal. Good people still go to heaven. Good atheists go to heaven. Good Muslims go to heaven. Good Jews go to heaven. You are better off being a good jew than a bad Catholic that was baptized.

If this means I’m not a Catholic, so bet it. I really don’t care what others think.
 
Elf01 said:
Name one Catholic teaching you actually agree with, because most of your posts here argue against core Catholic teachings.
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I am a believer of Christ’s message of peace, love, and caring for all - ESPECIALLY the poor and less fortunate.

As for institutional Catholicism - yes, there is hardly anything I agree with. Literally almost nothing. It is a religion of hate, bigotry, sexism, anti-science, anti-nature. It almost exclusively about indoctrination and power. The focus is on money and influence. Jesus’ message is just a front. I could give you so many examples. Sure there are some good priests, and many good people. But if you don’t believe me, just read. Pope Francis is trying to change things. But, you know, he took away all the Cardinal’s fancy cars (among other things) and now everybody hates him. It really is too bad.

I mean, seriously, just read about the truth of institutional Catholicism. If you read about the history and the current state of institutional Catholicism, and you still think the Church isn’t broken, let me know.
 
LateCatholic said:
As for institutional Catholicism - yes, there is hardly anything I agree with. Literally almost nothing. It is a religion of hate, bigotry, sexism, anti-science, anti-nature.
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In that case I’m amazed you identify yourself as Catholic.
 
Notice the limits to which grief can push a person. Scripture says that the grief over a lost child, when excessive, is the origins of idolatry.

Our children are not ours and they are not our God:
 
Dovekin said:
They taught that we can hope that God will embrace them as his own.
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Yeah - are you really ok with “hope”? As far as I am concerned, there is no ‘hope’. God is loving. He will NOT allow innocent and good people to suffer, Period. Hope is nowhere near strong enough. God WILL embrace them as his own. Baptized or not.
I refuse to leave open even the slightest crack of possibility that God allows innocents to suffer. No way. By extension - baptism is not necessary for salvation.
 
Elf01 said:
In that case I’m amazed you identify yourself as Catholic.
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With all due respect (and I mean that honestly), what you think means nothing. It’s between God and me.
I am not trying to insult you. I just think that if you took 100 Catholics from the 12th century and you opinionated YOUR beliefs - they would be amazed you called yourself Catholic as well.

If you want to call me something else (half Catholics, cafeteria Catholic), I’m totally fine with it.
 
StAugustine said:
That’s the Church’s teaching. Is it uncomfortable? Yes. But God is sovereign and Chuldren are not born innocent.
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Well, there’s the rub, I refuse to accept that. My Catholicism differs from yours. I would point out that God never said this - that Children are not innocent. Men long ago, who CLAIM to have listened to God, said this. Personally, I think it is very possible they just wanted to add a forced ceremonial requirement to enhance the indoctrination of youth to their power.

It sure is scary to think your baby could go to Hell and burn forever if you don’t get some holy water splashed on him or her as soon as possible. I’m sure they also charged a fee too.

In all seriousness, don’t you find it suspicious? That a ceremony is a fundamental requirement to go to heaven? That doesn’t seem counter to Jesus’ message? Are you at least willing to consider it. I mean, don;t you think it is a bit silly to think that God has a ledger and if you don;t have a check in the “baptized” box, you burn and suffer for all eternity - even if you lived the life of a saint? Don’t you think it is just a bit possible that the early Church leaders did this to get some revenue and indoctrinate new followers?
 
LateCatholic said:
By extension - baptism is not necessary for salvation
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Don’t forget about the baptism of desire and of blood. Many babies would have been baptized by their parents if possible…their parents have the baptism of desire for them and I am reassured by that.
 
I was raised a reformed Protestant, Calvinistic Baptist, and believed that baptism was an external ceremony. I converted to Catholicism and struggled with it years later, nearly going back to Protestantism.

The key is this- it is the sign of the New Covenant and Scripture explicitly says that it saves us. This is the word of our God. The only thing to do in the face of the decree of God is to submit in love and cast yourself upon his mercy and kindness, making the cry of the man in the gospel your own- “Lord, I believe! Help my unbelief!”

He is faithful.

And yes, The Holy Spirit says through we Saint Paul we are all by nature Children of wrath.

Ephesians 2:3 says it clearly.
 
That’s actually not possible, because baptism of desire cannot be vicarious.

Pope Pius XII says in his teaching to the Italian midwives-

https://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/P511029.HTM

“If what We have said up to now concerns the protection and care of natural life, much more so must it concern the supernatural life, which the newly born receives with Baptism. In the present economy there is no other way to communicate that life to the child who has not attained the use of reason. Above all, the state of grace is absolutely necessary at the moment of death without it salvation and supernatural happiness—the beatific vision of God—are impossible. An act of love is sufficient for the adult to obtain sanctifying grace and to supply the lack of baptism; to the still unborn or newly born this way is not open.”

Papal teaching. To midwives too, which really makes the point clear.
 
LateCatholic said:
So you are admitting it is possible innocent babies can go to Hell to suffer?
We can “hope” that God isn’t that cruel and horrific? Not very encouraging.
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The trouble, as mentioned, is that we don’t know the finer details. We do know a few things about God and baptism that helps us understand what goes on a little bit. Notably:
  1. We do know of Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire, both of which clearly give us reason to believe God works outside of baptism to bring salvation for some, even if His normal means is through baptism.
  2. We know God desires that none perish and will do what He can to prevent someone from being eternally separated from Him.
  3. We know God is just and won’t hold lack of baptism against someone if, through no fault of their own, they were incapable of receiving it. Again, Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire are two notable examples of this.
  4. We know God doesn’t force Himself on anyone.
This fourth part is what gives us trouble in definitively declaring that all unbaptized children go to heaven. Based on that understanding, there is reason to believe that, through some means unknown to us, He gives them a choice to accept or reject Him. Obviously, if that is the case, we don’t know what choice they make.

The hope comes from the fact that we know God does what He can to save them and bring them to share in the Divine life.

The doubt comes from the fact that we don’t know what they do with what God gives them.
 
When I was a young person, I was baptized by full immersion in a Protestant church. I am now a Catholic. In my childhood church, we were taught that we were not responsible for sin until we could fully understand right from wrong. Let me be clear. I was taught we are born into a fallen world and we would all become sinners. For us, baptism served as confirmation. I met with the pastor, who asked me about the basic tenets of the faith (as I understood at the time). Baptism is done in obedience to our Lord’s command. Baptism does not cleanse one of anything. The blood of Jesus cleanses us.

I became a Catholic roughly 30 years ago. And this is going to sound weird, but I’m glad I received baptism when I understood it.
 
ZMystiCat said:
We know God is just and won’t hold lack of baptism against someone if, through no fault of their own, they were incapable of receiving it. Again, Baptism by Blood and Baptism by Desire are two notable examples of this
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So what is your belief? I am asking for YOUR personal belief:
  1. Do unbaptized, Catholic Children go to heaven?
  2. Do baptized Christian, but not Catholic children go to heaven?
  3. Do any non-Catholics go to heaven? Specifically, does a jew who lived a perfect, righteous and virtuous life by any definition (other than he was not a Catholic 🙂 ) go to heaven?
  4. Does a Catholic priest that raped dozens of children under his care, but repents in his last hour of life, go to heaven?
I guarantee you will get people that claim to be Catholic that will answer these four questions differently.
I believe in a loving and just God. Assuming answers to the above, you can see why I consider orthodox and institutional Catholicism invalid, wrong, and discredited.
 
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