My Problem with the Catholic Mary

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I have recently left the church because of this issue. I hope someone can prove me wrong.

The Catholic Church believes that Mary is sacred and holy. They have statues of Mary in their churches, even though this is against God’s commandment. Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…” They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father. Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us. Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Without a doubt Mary was a blessed woman, but she was not perfect. Catholics believe that Mary never sinned. Again, this is not supported by any Scripture. Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” There is only one person that never sinned, and that person is Jesus. Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.” 1 John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” 1 Peter 2:22 “‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’”

They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus. Matthew 13:55-56 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Mark 3:31 “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.” Matthew 12:46 “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.” Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives. The following verses make a clear distinction between spiritual and blood brothers: Luke 8:19-21 “Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.’ He replied, ‘My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.’” Jesus’ spiritual brothers are the ones who hear God’s word and put it into practice. Catholics also believe that Jesus used the word “brethen” or “brothers” when referring to His disciples. This is true in some cases, but in the following verses there is a definite distinction between Jesus’ brothes and His disciples. John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” John 7:3 “His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.”
 
Referring to your first Scriptural quote about carving idols and worshipping them - statues of Mary or the Saints which you may find in various churches are merely representations of certain holy people. Unlike the golden calf which was formed and worshipped by the people in Exodus when Moses was up the mountain, Catholics do not worship these statues. Nor do they even worship those whom the statues represent - unless they are images of the Lord. The attention given to Mary and the saints is veneration, not worship and when one kneels at a statue or painting of one of these holy people, they are not praying to the statue or canvas, but rather to those they represent. They are aids to prayer or calling to mind the holy lives these people led. Much as one may keep photographs of one’s loved ones in their wallet to remember them - they do not love the photograph, but those whom the photograph represents.

With regard to prayer - Christ is the one Mediator between God and man; the Church has always taught this. Catholics do, indeed, pray to God - however one may even ask why we should even pray to God, since he knows our prayer before we speak it, and is more willing to help us than we are willing to ask for his help. Because the saints are in the presence of God and are in one communion with Him must have a desire to help us too. The saints are even more alive in Heaven than they were on earth and so can hear our prayers. In Revelation there are references to the saints placing prayers at God’s feet (5:8; 8:3). How , if the saints can help us, can Christ still be the one mediator? Am I diminishing Christ’s role if I ask someone to pray for me, or if I offer prayers for someone? No. Yes, one does act as a mediator in such cases, but our prayers are dependent on the mediatorship of Christ. Remember too that St Paul asked the people to pray for him - and Christians follow this example today knowing that our mediatorship is worthless without Christ.

“All have sinned…” - is it rational to believe that this means that everyone has committed actual sins? If it is, then what do we conclude about a child below the age of reason? The child cannot commit sin because to do so he would need reason and the intention to sin. If the child dies before reaching the age of reason, what does Romans 3:23 mean for him if we only take it to mean actual sins? It would mean nothing. However all are affected by original sin and all need a Redeemer. At baptism we are cleansed of original sin and sanctifying grace is given to the soul. The Church teaches that Mary was freed from original sin at the moment of her conception. If one does not accept the teaching authority of the Church, but believes that the Bible is the sole rule of faith (Sola Scriptura, which is discussed elsewhere on the Forum), it may be difficult to accept this teaching as it is not explicitly mentioned in the Bible. However, at very least it does not contradict Luke 1:47 - Mary needed a Redeemer, but she was redeemed in a special type of baptism at the moment of her conception.

Catholics certainly do believe that Mary remained a virgin. How can this be so when Scripture referrs to the brothers of Jesus. The reason for this which is explained in the book Catholicism and Fundamentalism by Karl Keating, is that in Hebrew and Aramaic (the language spoken by Christ) there was no specific word for ‘cousin’, and so the word ‘brother’ was used to mean ‘cousin’ or other relative. James and Joses in Mark 6:3 are called brothers of Jesus, but we know that they were the sons of Mary, wife of Clopas (Mt 27:56). We also know that the wife of Clopas was Our Blessed Lady’s sister, which means that she was the aunt of Jesus and thus Joses and James were actually Christ’s cousins. Also, Scripture never refers to Mary as being the mother of anyone but Christ.

I hope this very condensed explanation helps you a bit!
 
Ok, on the first bit. After giving the commandments, God gave Moses the order to build the Ark. If you read the description of that, you will find alot of imagery there. The people didn’t worship the Ark, only the God who called for it to be built.

Mary never claimed to be sinless. The church teaches that she was preserved from original sin due to her becoming the Mother of Christ. She was “the Ark of the new covenent.” God kept her pure for that reason. No where does she brag about who she was or what she did.

As far as siblings of Christ. In the one scripture quote of yours, you mentioned them saying, “Is this not the carpenters son?” Why say that if there were others? Why not say, “this is the first born of the carpenter.” Or someting like that?

As far Mary remaining a virgin, it’s supported by scripture. When the angel went to her and made the announcement that she would become the mother of Jesus, note what she ***didn’t *** say. She didn’t remind the angel that she was betrothed to Joseph and expected to have children in the normal way. Instead, she asked how could that be, or happen, since she was a virgin.
 
Your root problem lies in believing in fictional people in the first place.

This analysis and time-wasting really is slowing down the world, all over fairytales.
 
Mary was not stained by original sin. Otherwise how could she have carried God inside her?

I’m in the process of converting and Mary was an issue I had to deal with. The fact is that no one prays to Mary as though she were a deity. She is not the Inanna to the Christian Enki. I had to break apart the Hail Mary to finally get it through my thick skull. The first part is all scriptural. The last part simply asks for intercessory prayer of Mary who obviously is already in heaven. Since we on earth “do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words” Rom 8:26
How much clearer then are the prayers of those already in Heaven?

Hope I haven’t made too much a mess of it.
 
Jesus said that you can judge a tree by its fruit.
Elizabeth told Mary - Blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

If Jesus was sinless and holy, therefore, it would be impossible for Mary not to be, since she is the tree that bore that fruit. The Catholic attitude toward Mary is the same as the Isrealite attitude toward the Ark of the Covenant - It contained the Word of God, and was pure, spotless, and holy. Mary also contained the Word of God made Flesh, and had to have been pure, spotless, and holy to do so. She is blessed among women, and her soul magnifies the Lord, according to Scripure.

Concerning statues, it is indeed forbidden to worship them. No Catholic in the entire world worships plaster and paint that I know of. It is not forbidden to create statues. Otherwise, the two angels sitting on top of the ten commandments on the ark of the covenant could not have been built. Nor could the cherubim in Solomon’s temple have been carved. Nor could the serpent which healed the Israelites in the desert from snakebites.

You are suffering from fundamentalism, a flawed approach to scripture. Suggest you spend a LOT of time on catholicbible101.com to get the true picture of what the bible is really all about.
 
Jlaymon2 said:
I have recently left the church because of this issue. I hope someone can prove me wrong.
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Well, the two thousand year old Church founded by Christ is not here to “prove” you wrong but to uphold Her teachings. This would include the Church’s understanding of the role of Mary in our salvation history. Jesus wore the very flesh of Mary and Mary’s womb was the very tabernacle of the living Word of God. The Church sees that as the highest honor that could ever be awarded to anything in God’s creation.

You see, I find it quite perplexing that so many non-Catholics would see to find Mary as just another sinful, ordinary woman. That’s like saying that the Ark of the Covenant in the Old Testament was just a dirty, ordinary box. The Ark of the Covenant held the written Word of God (decalogue) and God was VERY explicit on how it was to be constructed (with carved cherubim by the way) and how it was to be handled. In fact, when Uzzah put out his hand to steady the Ark, he was killed because nobody touched the Ark.

Now, we would find that if we truly know Jesus to be the living Word of God that we would expect no less of the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary. Catholics knowing this, in my opinion, hold a much higher adoration for our Lord in knowing that He would not be brought to us in a stained and ordinary vessel. We think way too much of Jesus than to think that He would be treated lower than the stone tablets of the Old Testament.

You mentioned that you recently left the Church because of this issue. Really. What about the Sacraments, mainly the Eucharist whereby Catholics have known for 2000 years the Real Presence that has been lived by Christians since the first century? What about the very New Testament that you quote? Where did it even come from if not from an already established Church founded by Christ?

My dear friend, you have many more issues than the one that you state if you really left the Church for a certain reason. No Catholic that I know would leave the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and the Eucharist for a misunderstanding regarding Mary. You may have left the building but I doubt that you were a devout Catholic who left because of our Blessed Mother. Try again…God bless you and you are in my prayers…teachccd
 
You do realize, don’t you, that all your ‘problems’ with Mary were never ‘problems’ with any Christians until a couple of hundred years ago? That even the first protestants like Luther believed in the “Catholic Mary” exactly as Catholics believe today, exactly as the first apostles and first Christians believed and have believed for nearly 2000 years? That the ‘problems’ came about because individual people, with no authority, cherry picked Scripture out of context and tried to preach a gospel against the true Christian gospel?
 
I converted to Catholicism with no prior religious training, knowledge or ‘baggage’. It was not hard for me to figure out that Mary played a very special role in Christ’s ministry on earth and now in Heaven.

First of all, God sent the angel Gabriel to Mary, and he said to her, “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you!” (Luke 1:28), “Do not be afraid Mary, for you have found favor with God. And behold, you will conceive in your woumb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus” (Luke 1: 30-31).

Later the angel Gabriel told Mary that, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God” (Luke 1:35). God chose Mary to be the mother of our Savior. Mary said “yes” to God, where as Eve said no by her disobiedence to God.

Mary was Christ’s mother, his first disciple (witnessing his first miracle at Cana). Mary was one of the few disciples that did not abandoned Jesus, witnessing His death at the foot of the cross. Jesus told 'the disciple whom he loved" from the cross, “Behold your mother!” (John 19:27), there by giving Mary to the Church as ‘our mother’.

Mary was present in Jerusalem during Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit came from Heaven and rested upon each of the disciples and filled them with the Holy Spirit (Acts chap 1&2). So Mary was present at the very start of the ‘Church’.

So is she special, absolutely! She is the mother of our Lord (the head of the Church), therefore she is the mother of our Church and is therefore our mother.

When Elizabeth (filled with the Holy Spirit) greeted Mary upon her visit, she said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb!” (Luke 1:42). Mary later says, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed” (Luke 1: 46-48).

With no religious background or biases, it was not hard for me to figure out (before I joined the Catholic Church), that Mary was special (in the Bible). How can someone give birth to the "Son of God’, raise him, become his disciple, and be with him at almost every point of his ministry, and not be special. This is one of the biggest mistakes that many Protestants make, closing the door on the Mother of our Lord (and the Church), by putting her in the background as a minor disciple (at best), and mentioning her once a year at Christmas in their sermon.
 
It is apparent if you compare Mt. 13:55 with Mark 6:3, Mark 15:40 and John 19:25, you will see that James and Joseph are the sons of Mary the wife of Clopas. Despite that, they are still called Jesus’ “brothers” in Mat. 13:55. They are not his fraternal brothers. http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/4.gif Also, the Greek term for “brethren” encompassed relatives beyond fraternal brothers and sisters. Greek is the language in which most of the New Testament was written.
 
Jlaymon2 said:
I have recently left the church because of this issue. I hope someone can prove me wrong.

The Catholic Church believes that Mary is sacred and holy. They have statues of Mary in their churches, even though this is against God’s commandment. Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…” They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father. Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us. Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Without a doubt Mary was a blessed woman, but she was not perfect. Catholics believe that Mary never sinned. Again, this is not supported by any Scripture. Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” There is only one person that never sinned, and that person is Jesus. Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.” 1 John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” 1 Peter 2:22 “‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’”

They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus. Matthew 13:55-56 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Mark 3:31 “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.” Matthew 12:46 “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.” Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives. The following verses make a clear distinction between spiritual and blood brothers: Luke 8:19-21 “Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.’ He replied, ‘My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.’” Jesus’ spiritual brothers are the ones who hear God’s word and put it into practice. Catholics also believe that Jesus used the word “brethen” or “brothers” when referring to His disciples. This is true in some cases, but in the following verses there is a definite distinction between Jesus’ brothes and His disciples. John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” John 7:3 “His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.”
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If you dig deep, I’ll bet you’ll find that you have problems with the moral theology of the Church as well (abortion, contraception, gay “marriage”).

Perhaps this is your real problem and Mary is the scapegoat.
 
(Edited) Your objections come right out of the evangelical treatises against Catholicism. Keep searching for the entire truth, as you do not yet possess it.

Rather, let’s look at the problems with the non-Catholic Mary: She is not venerated, she is not honored, not even called “blessed” unless they happen to be in Luke 1 near Christmas time. She is nothing more than a useful womb - just a common teenager walking along when Gabriel somehow stumbled across her. She was not chosen by God for any particular reason, and was apparently too busy having as many as 120 other sons and daughters with Joseph to pay much attention to Christ. She apparently did not spend much time with Christ all through His life, did not begin His public ministry at Cana, did not give the single best advice in scripture “Do whatever he tells you”, was not at the foot of the cross when He died, and had nothing to do with Him thereafter. She was apparently NOT given by Christ to John as his mother, and her human grave is just waiting for some Protestant researcher to find it. That will be proof! Proof that the Queen of Heaven seen by John in Revelation is a new biblical character that we have never heard of before, and certainly not Mary.

(Edited)
 
Well, somebody who joined May 4 but has 2 posts grand total and identified his/her religion as “Nazarene” FWIW. . .
 
Jlaymon2, you seem to be very influenced by Evangelical Protestant ideas. May I ask, have you been attending one of their churches, recently?

If so, then you can see the danger, can’t you, of associating with heretics. Their heresies become your heresies.

Never let anyone kid you into thinking that you can wallow in muck without getting dirty. 😉
 
po18guy said:
I most sincerely doubt you left the church, or ever were in it. Your objections come right out of the evangelical treatises against Catholicism. Keep searching for the entire truth, as you do not yet possess it.
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I agree. 🙂
 
Jlaymon2 said:
I have recently left the church because of this issue. I hope someone can prove me wrong.

The Catholic Church believes that Mary is sacred and holy. They have statues of Mary in their churches, even though this is against God’s commandment. Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…” They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father. Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us. Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”

Without a doubt Mary was a blessed woman, but she was not perfect. Catholics believe that Mary never sinned. Again, this is not supported by any Scripture. Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God…” There is only one person that never sinned, and that person is Jesus. Hebrews 4:15 “For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are-yet was without sin.” 1 John 3:5 “And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.” 1 Peter 2:22 “‘He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.’”

They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus. Matthew 13:55-56 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Mark 3:31 “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.” Matthew 12:46 “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.” Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives. The following verses make a clear distinction between spiritual and blood brothers: Luke 8:19-21 “Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.’ He replied, ‘My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.’” Jesus’ spiritual brothers are the ones who hear God’s word and put it into practice. Catholics also believe that Jesus used the word “brethen” or “brothers” when referring to His disciples. This is true in some cases, but in the following verses there is a definite distinction between Jesus’ brothes and His disciples. John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” John 7:3 “His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.”
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Great answer! I have been searching for answers myself and this one was excellent!

Can I PM you sometime?
 
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