My Problem with the Catholic Mary

[twosweetgirls]

I thank you for all of the posts. I am sorry to say that I have heard all of these explanations many times before. To me I must on scripture, no where in scripture does it say “Mary was without sin” no where in scripture does it say “Mary was the ark of the New covenant” no were in scripture does it say “Mary ascended and was crowed queen of heaven”

Nowhere does Scripture have the printed formula of “The Sinner’s Prayer”.

Nowhere does Scripture talk about “being slain in the Spirit”.

Nowhere does Scripture tell us to “raise your hands in evangelical praise”.

Nowhere does Scripture describe “altar call”.

Nowhere does Scripture say to “accept Jesus Christ into your heart as personal Saviour”.

Saying this in all charity, you left the Catholic Church because of Sacred Tradition, so it would seem. Yet you blindly accept your own new tradition (assuming you’re in some Protestant fellowship now) where none of it is “stated in Scripture”. It doesn’t make sense, does it?

 

[Jlaymon2]

You assume to much. I left the church not to join a 21st century protestant church. It seems I have lost my religion.

 

[Jlaymon2]

Well, let’s look at the Nicene Creed:

Could you please point to any encroachments of paganism in the above?

It seems that your faith is being ill-formed by your new Nazarene association and not by the Church that Christ Himself founded and preserves without error. You base your understanding on the unhistorical belief that whatever is taught must be found explicitly in Scripture; and it seemsthat your understanding is also based on the idea that Catholicism quickly went off the rails when overwhelmed by pagan thought. These articles ably address this:

catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0003chap.asp

catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

bringyou.to/apologetics/ConstantinePaganChristian.htm?d581b500

When you are willing to accept a Fundamentalist approach to Marian doctrines that sees Marian theology and devotion as arising from paganism, then you really haven’t too much further to go in seeing Jesus as just another manifestation of Horus - after all, if Mary is just devotion to Isis played-out within a Christian context, then what keeps one from saying that Jesus is just a Christian myth conflated with Horus?

Because Jesus is the only “divine” being who washed the feet on his own disciples. For many Christians Mary was mortal one day and divine the next. The same could be said for Jesus himself.

 

[nilofc]

Watch out. Many Protestant Religions teach that their are two Sacraments.

True…but who can keep track of their beliefs…they are like 35,000 of them…or more.

If they think that there are only 2 sacraments…then they have an incomplete view of what a covenant is…and they failed to understand the full flowering of the symbolisms in the Old and the New Testaments.

 

[nilofc]

You assume to much. I left the church not to join a 21st century protestant church. It seems I have lost my religion.

Yep…some protestants even want to get rid of “religion”. First define “religion”. Then we’ll take it from there.

 

[nicolep]

Because Jesus is the only “divine” being who washed the feet on his own disciples. For many Christians Mary was mortal one day and divine the next. The same could be said for Jesus himself.

Have you been spending time watching “The Da Vinci Code”? That’s a quote from the movie subsituting Jesus’ name with Mary’s.

 

[FCEGM]

Because Jesus is the only “divine” being who washed the feet on his own disciples. For many Christians Mary was mortal one day and divine the next. The same could be said for Jesus himself.

And Mary bore the One Who washed their feet. Why is there consternation that she who bore the Son of God should rightly be seen in her faithfulness as the New Eve and the true Daughter of Zion and all the other titles given to the Mother of God? Mary, unlike her Son, was never divine; but she is - as with all called into the Kingdom - a partaker in the divine nature (as St. Peter instructs us). The Church does not teach, nor has it ever taught, that Mary is divine in her own right. It does teach rightly, however, that she is the faithful Christian par excellence. To understand Mary one must stand with her at the foot of the Cross and hear the Lord say “behold your mother.” It seems you have not yet done that.

• and you have yet to tell us how the Nicene Creed reflects pagan thought.

 

[FCEGM]

You assume to much. I left the church not to join a 21st century protestant church. It seems I have lost my religion.

I’m not sure who you’re addressing this to, but your profile states that you are a “Nazarene”; so you haven’t joined a 21th century Protestant denomination, but a 19th century one. How carefully did you nurture your Catholic Faith so as not to lose it?

 

[NotWorthy]

You assume to much. I left the church not to join a 21st century protestant church. It seems I have lost my religion.

Well now, that’s different. It seemed like, with your apathy to Marian Devotion, you were only leaving the Church, only to join another church.

After all, didn’t you list your religion as Nazarene?

 

[Canto]

no where in scripture does it say

2 Thes 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast: and hold the traditions, which you have learned, whether by word or by our epistle.

2 Thes 3:6 And we charge you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you withdraw yourselves from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition which they have received of us.

John 20:30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book.

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did which, if they were written every one, the world itself. I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

WHERE IN SCRIPTURE does it tell us the contents page. i.e. How do you know the gosepl of John should be in but not the gospel of Thomas. Could it be that via tradtion (not the bible) the Church at the Council of Rome (382 AD) came up with the contents lits. The Scriptures where then translated into the people’s tongue of Latin by St Jerome, the same Jerome who belived in ‘the perpetual virginity of the Blessed Virgin Mary.’

the pagans formed during the Nicean Creed

CREDO (the Nicene Creed)
I believe in one God,
the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, Genesis 14:19
of all things visible and invisible. Colossians 1:16
And in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only Begotten Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages. John 1:1

God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father; Hebrews 1:3
through him all things were made. John 1:1-4

For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven, John 3:13
and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate
of the Virgin Mary,
and became man. Matthew 1:18
For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate, John 19:6
he suffered death and was buried,
and rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures. 1 Corinthians 5:4
He ascended into heaven Luke 24:51
and is seated at the right hand of the Father. Colossians 3:1

He will come again in glory
to judge the living and the dead 2 Timothy 4:1
and his kingdom will have no end. Luke 1:33
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son, John 14:16
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets. 1 Peter 1:10-11

And one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. Romans 12:5 Ephesians 4:5
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins Acts 2:38
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen. Romans 6:5

 

[Thaddeus]

Here’s some scripture for you…
Luke 2:51: And he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them; and his mother kept all these things in her heart.

If Jesus was obedient to Mary, and Jesus is our brother, then we must be obedient to Mary too. After all, she is our mother too, according to Revelation 12:17…

 

[Gamera]

Because Jesus is the only “divine” being who washed the feet on his own disciples. For many Christians Mary was mortal one day and divine the next. The same could be said for Jesus himself.

Catholics don’t believe Mary is divine. We believe only God is divine.

 

[joseph_virgen]

i have to be totally honest here. as a child i learned to pray to our mother, Mary. later, as an adult i saw no need to change. and yes, i know what certain theologians write and what the church teaches, but i also know that righteousness is known by its deeds.

it is that particular information that gives me clear thought as i journey towards saving my soul. somewhere in the vastness of God’s mercy, i seriously doubt that he will throw me into the lake of fire for the reverance of his mother, Mary.

ph, i can still end up in hell, but it won’t be for praying unto God’s mother, Mary,

 

[script77]

(Edited) Your objections come right out of the evangelical treatises against Catholicism. Keep searching for the entire truth, as you do not yet possess it.

Rather, let’s look at the problems with the non-Catholic Mary: She is not venerated, she is not honored, not even called “blessed” unless they happen to be in Luke 1 near Christmas time. She is nothing more than a useful womb - just a common teenager walking along when Gabriel somehow stumbled across her. She was not chosen by God for any particular reason, and was apparently too busy having as many as 120 other sons and daughters with Joseph to pay much attention to Christ. She apparently did not spend much time with Christ all through His life, did not begin His public ministry at Cana, did not give the single best advice in scripture “Do whatever he tells you”, was not at the foot of the cross when He died, and had nothing to do with Him thereafter. She was apparently NOT given by Christ to John as his mother, and her human grave is just waiting for some Protestant researcher to find it. That will be proof! Proof that the Queen of Heaven seen by John in Revelation is a new biblical character that we have never heard of before, and certainly not Mary.

(Edited)

Excellent post.l guess that’s what Protestants have been beating around the bush to say about Mary but not having the boldness to come out and say it, cos it does sound ridiculous!!!

 

[SeanTom]

JLaymon 2,

You stated: "They believe that Mary was always a virgin, and had no children other than Jesus. Matthew 13:55-56 “Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?” Mark 3:31 “There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.” Matthew 12:46 “While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.” Catholics argue that when the Bible refers to brothers of Jesus, that these are spiritual brothers and not blood relatives. The following verses make a clear distinction between spiritual and blood brothers: Luke 8:19-21 “Now Jesus’ mother and brothers came to see him, but they were not able to get near him because of the crowd. Someone told him, ‘Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to see you.’ He replied, ‘My mother and brothers are those who hear God’s word and put it into practice.’” Jesus’ spiritual brothers are the ones who hear God’s word and put it into practice. Catholics also believe that Jesus used the word “brethen” or “brothers” when referring to His disciples. This is true in some cases, but in the following verses there is a definite distinction between Jesus’ brothes and His disciples. John 2:12 “After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples: and they continued there not many days.” John 7:3 “His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.”

The term “brother” has a wide meaning in the Bible. It is not restricted to brothers germane or half brothers. The same goes for “sister” and the plural “brethren”. Kish and Eleazar were the sons of Moholi; Kish had sons of his own, but Eleazar had no sons, only daughters, who married their “brethren”, the sons of Kish. These “brethren” were really their cousins (1 Chron 23:21-22)

The terms “brethren“, “brother“, and “sister“ did not refer only to close relatives, as in the above examples. Sometimes they meant only a kinsman (Dt 23:8; Jer 34:9). The words could mean even people apparently unrelated, such as a friend (1 Kings 9:13, 20:12). Or just an ally (Amos 1:9).

Why this ambiguous usage? Because neither Hebrew nor Aramaic, the language spoken by Christ and His disciples, had a special word meaning “cousin“. Speakers of those languages used either the word for “brother“ or a circumlocution, such as “the son of the sister of my father“. Using a circumlocution was clumsy way to speak, so they naturally fell to using the word “brother“. The writers of the New Testament were brought up to use the Aramaic equivalent of “brethren“ to mean both cousins and sons of the same father - plus other relatives and even non-relatives. To determine just what “brethren“ or “brother“ or “sister“ means in any one verse, we must look at the context. When we do that, we may see insuperable problems arise if we assume that Mary had children other than Jesus.

In the story of his being found in the Temple, Jesus, at age twelve, is mentioned as evidently the only Son of Mary (Lk 2:41-51); there is no hint of other children in the family. The people of Nazareth, where he grew up, refer to him as “the son of Mary“ (Mk 6:3), not as “a son of Mary“. If the words “a son of Mary“ were used, then that might infer that there were other sons, but the words were “THE son of Mary“. The Greek expression implies he is her only son. In fact, others in the Gospels are never referred to as Mary‘s sons, not even when they are called Jesus‘ “brethren“. If they were in fact her sons, this would be a strange usage. I do find it strange that many of the persons named in the Bible are referred to as “______, the son or daughter of _______”. Other than Jesus, I can recall no reference to any of Jesus‘ alleged brothers, James, Joseph, Simon, or Judas as being referred to as “a son of Mary or Joseph“.

The other argument used by some concerns the term “first-born.” They say Jesus could not be called Mary’s “first-born” unless there were other children that followed him. This is a misunderstanding of the way the ancient Jews used the term. For them it meant that child who opened the womb (Ex 13:2, Nb3:12). Under the Mosaic law, it was the “first-born” son that was to be sanctified (Ex 34-20). Did this mean the parents had to wait until a second son was born before they could call their first the “first-born”? Not hardly. The first male child of a marriage was termed the “first-born” even if he turned out to be the only child of the marriage. This usage is illustrated by a funerary inscription discovered in Egypt. The inscription refers to a woman who died during the birth of her “first-born”. Does this mean that she had other children AFTER her death? Not hardly. The words “first born” does not necessarily mean that there were others. In Laws of Inheritance, the words “first son” was used quite often since the “first son” inherited his father’s estate. Even though there may be only one son, he was still referred to as the “first son”. “First son” was frequently used in biblical times.

Are we not all brothers and sisters of Christ??

 

[LilyM]

i have to be totally honest here. as a child i learned to pray to our mother, Mary. later, as an adult i saw no need to change. and yes, i know what certain theologians write and what the church teaches, but i also know that righteousness is known by its deeds.

it is that particular information that gives me clear thought as i journey towards saving my soul. somewhere in the vastness of God’s mercy, i seriously doubt that he will throw me into the lake of fire for the reverance of his mother, Mary.

ph, i can still end up in hell, but it won’t be for praying unto God’s mother, Mary,

Aah yes, but you could easily end up in Hell for the lack of her help and prayers, which like the prayers of all righteous men avail much (and would you dare assert that any on earth are more righteous than those who are in heaven?).

You could end up in Hell for NOT taking her as your mother as John did, and for NOT honouring her as such as we all are bid by the commandments to do, for NOT loving her as Jesus did (utterly).

 

[Thaddeus]

catholicbible101.com/theblessedvirginmary.htm
The Blessed Virgin Mary and the Bible…

 

[SD_Catholic]

Aah yes, but you could easily end up in Hell for the lack of her help and prayers, which like the prayers of all righteous men avail much (and would you dare assert that any on earth are more righteous than those who are in heaven?).

You could end up in Hell for NOT taking her as your mother as John did, and for NOT honouring her as such as we all are bid by the commandments to do, for NOT loving her as Jesus did (utterly).

Just wondering if you read his post correctly? Seemed a bit harsh for what was written.

SD

 

[nilofc]

Protestants who claims that Mother Mary is not sinless, that she wasn’t perfect is unknowingly aknowledging that God and sin can be at the same time in the same vessel, a vessel touched by the finger of Satan.

Protestants should really stop and think about they’re saying and realize how absurd their position is.

In the end, at my judgement, I would really hate it when I am standing in front of Jesus and have Him ask me "What did you say about my mother?".

Think about it.

 

[thrufaithalone]

Protestants who claims that Mother Mary is not sinless, that she wasn’t perfect is unknowingly aknowledging that God and sin can be at the same time in the same vessel

It’s not the “same vessel”. (Think about it. The reason abortion is wrong is because it’s not the mother’s “vessel”; it belongs to someone else.)