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SD_Catholic
Guest
I already showed you that this is a false statement… perhaps go back to the post I showed you with the attached info… Paul was indeed called “father” in fact called himself “father”.
SD
- Status
SD
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damianlaura
Guest
Jesus Christ held the 10 commandments perfectly. He WAS the Word made flesh where as we only had the wriiten 10 commandments from Moses previously. Did Jesus honor his mother and his father? Of course He did! Are we called to imitate Christ the best we can everyday? Then we honor His Mother as He did. We do not worship Mary the way protestants think we do. We ask for her to pray for us as we would ask our family here on earth to do the same. Mary WAS made perfect by God’s will. Would he give anything defiled to His Son?
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wellington
Guest
Categorically, Paul was never called FATHER by the early Christians. Scrutinizing the verse you are using, it doesn’t say that Apostle Paul admonished the Chiristians to call him FATHER. Please take note of the word “CALL”, for that is clearly stipulated in the admonition of our Lord Jesus to " CALL no man your father…", whereas the context of the verse you quoted earlier (I-Corinthians 4:14-14) is the preaching of Apostle Paul of the Gospel of the Lord, thus, in the rendition of the King James Version, it says, thus;
“…for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.”
In the verse, Paul never referred to himself as FATHER in the same essence that GOD is FATHER to all Christians, that is, FATHER OF SOULS.
It is a false statement then, that, Paul was called FATHER by the early Christians.
W
wellington
Guest
To elucidate further, i am calling my biological father as my “FATHER”, but in no case in the same essence as GOD is FATHER unto us Christians.
But kindly take note of how the Catholic Church uses the title FATHER to refer to the POPE and to the BISHOPS and to the PRIESTS…
In fact, the Pope is being called by catholics as “The Most Holy Father” or " The Holy Father". I found nowhere in the bible verses where any of the apostles were called that way, that is “HOLY FATHER”. Please enlighten me so, if there is such a passage in the bible that tells otherwise. Thanks.
But kindly take note of how the Catholic Church uses the title FATHER to refer to the POPE and to the BISHOPS and to the PRIESTS…
In fact, the Pope is being called by catholics as “The Most Holy Father” or " The Holy Father". I found nowhere in the bible verses where any of the apostles were called that way, that is “HOLY FATHER”. Please enlighten me so, if there is such a passage in the bible that tells otherwise. Thanks.
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damianlaura
Guest
In my experience this “where is it in the Bible?” thing is a huge barrier between protestants and Catholics. We have the bible AND tradition to consider. In fact the Bible IS tradition.
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RobHom
Guest
And neither do Catholics. Nor do Catholics place any person on earth on the same level as God. For anyone to even begin to imagine that is the case is simply wrong.
It is merely an “honorific”. It is you who makes issue of it. We accept it for what it is, and as stated above…we know full well and understand that No-one, absolutely NO-ONE on earth is equal to or even remotely close to God!
From here: drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=23&l=9&f=s#x
9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.
9 “Call none your father upon earth”… Neither be ye called masters. The meaning is that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Cor. 4. 23: 15,) and for our masters and teachers.
At the bottom line, you are merely “splitting hairs” to attempt to justify something of absolutely no consequence… Sorry
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RobHom
Guest
My friend in Christ… one of the greatest of modern errors is that of “sola scriptura”… that being that people have chosen to limit God to what is contained between two covers of a book called the Bible. A bible which has been adulterated and mutated over the years. Its simple fact that cannot be disputed. Man does not possess either the power or the right to limit God. And that is precisely what many attempt to do.maybe the more sensible issue to resolve on this matter is what really the bible has to tell us about mary. Is it in harmony with the bible teaching that mary did not sin?
Do we have a basis on the bible in saying that Mary is sinless?
Thanks.
On that note I would refer you to the Sub Tuum, it is a document that was found and dated back to the 3rd century. That means it is pre-Canon. Here are some references:
nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sub-tuum-praesidium
gnostic.org/ihsm/ihsm_prayers_sub_tuum_mary.htm
The fact or notion of the fact that Mary is not mentioned this way or that in the Bible…is not justification for or against. It is merely an attempt by those who choose to “detract” from God.
Simply put, if one embraces “sola scriptura”…meaning “Bible only”, then one may not use any book, paper, writing, video, or audio source to support any argument. To do so is to deny sola scriptura as a valid theology, which by the way it is not, as there is absolutely no passage within the Bible stating that it is.
Before you respond, perhaps you would like to educate and illuminate yourself on some facts, those being precisely what the “Founders of the Reformation” had to say about the Blessed Virgin Mary:
davidmacd.com/catholic/martin_luther_on_mary.htm
On the link above, you will also find quotes from Calvin, Zwingli, Bullinger, and Wesley. I have to say I find it interesting that “today’s” modern theologians, amateurs and others, seem to believe they know more than the studied men of faith who were actually conversant in the original languages that scriptures were written in.
If you couple all with the writings of the Early Christian Fathers, you will find that those with your shared beliefs are woefully myopic with regards to God and His dominion…
Peace!
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
Since this is off topic for the thread I’ll end with this… You seem to agree that the word “father” WAS used for others in the Bible… so then you’re only argument can be that we put priests and the Pope on the same level as God when we call them “father”… well we don’t… does this help… Paul’s relationship as father to the ones he taught is how we see our fatherly relationship with a priest.
Whether you believe it or not isn’t my job… you’re initial concern was the word “father”… I showed you that others were called “father” also… so to switch to assuming you know what we mean when we say father is something completely different and all I can say is that when we say “father” to a priest or parent it is completely different than when we call God “Father”… plain and simple.
SD
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SD_Catholic
Guest
I’m too slow… thanks Rob:thumbsup:And neither do Catholics. Nor do Catholics place any person on earth on the same level as God. For anyone to even begin to imagine that is the case is simply wrong.
It is merely an “honorific”. It is you who makes issue of it. We accept it for what it is, and as stated above…we know full well and understand that No-one, absolutely NO-ONE on earth is equal to or even remotely close to God!
From here: drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=23&l=9&f=s#x
9 And call none your father upon earth; for one is your father, who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters; for one is you master, Christ.
9 “Call none your father upon earth”… Neither be ye called masters. The meaning is that our Father in heaven is incomparably more to be regarded, than any father upon earth: and no master to be followed, who would lead us away from Christ. But this does not hinder but that we are by the law of God to have a due respect both for our parents and spiritual fathers, (1 Cor. 4. 23: 15,) and for our masters and teachers.
At the bottom line, you are merely “splitting hairs” to attempt to justify something of absolutely no consequence… Sorry
SD
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damianlaura
Guest
Sola Scriptura is like a plague that has so quickly poisoned so many. It is the greatest famine (if I may say so ) that has starved so many from the riches and spiritual food of our ancestors.
J
JRKH
Guest
Have you ever called someone teacher? The verse directly before the “Call no one father” admonishes us to call no one “Rabbi” (teacher or great one)
Peace
James
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JRKH
Guest
wellington,
I do appreciate your well done posts but I think that you are overlooking the “600 puond gorilla” in all of this.
The Catholic Church, which has existed unbroken since Pentacost is the institution on earth that assembled the Bible and has kept, copied, translated, and protected for 1500 years since it’s codification around 400 AD. Why then would The Church allow such a Clear and Blatantly antibiblical title to exist if your interpretation is correct?
We have many MANY discussions on these boards over things that may or may not be covered in the Bible. Purgatory, Peter/Rock and Mary are three biggies. Now here, this statement of Jesus is quite clear and unequivical. Yet the Church has NEVER held the view that you espouse. So Either the Church that Jesus Founded and Promised to protect has been wrong from the beginning or your interpretation is flawed.
It the Church has been wrong since the beginning then your confidence in the Bible itself shatters since we only have it declared as the Word of God through the Church, ror your interpretation is flawed.
I leave it to you to consider.
Peace
James
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Tantum_ergo
Guest
I had read some years ago that it was not only the Catholics who called their priests Father"–that in fact the early protestants called their ministers “Father” as well.
Along with the early protestants who believed in the perpetual virginity and the sinlessness of Mary, it seems that the very first of those who separated themselves from the Catholic Church had no problem with reading Scripture and seeing and accepting as truth what Christian (Catholic) teaching had always taught regarding these Scriptural passages. . .
And that as time went by, it was quite definitely MEN (not God) who made their own interpretations, setting aside hundreds of years of Christian teaching to make their own ‘distinctions’.
And yes, I am really, really interested in hearing how many protestants who cavil at “Father” refuse to refer to their pastors as their teachers, or refuse to call the people who teach their children teachers as well.
“Call no man teacher” is just as much a part of “Call no man father” in Scripture. . . althoughly strangely enough St. Paul calls himself both and accepts the titles from his flock as well.
<>
Along with the early protestants who believed in the perpetual virginity and the sinlessness of Mary, it seems that the very first of those who separated themselves from the Catholic Church had no problem with reading Scripture and seeing and accepting as truth what Christian (Catholic) teaching had always taught regarding these Scriptural passages. . .
And that as time went by, it was quite definitely MEN (not God) who made their own interpretations, setting aside hundreds of years of Christian teaching to make their own ‘distinctions’.
And yes, I am really, really interested in hearing how many protestants who cavil at “Father” refuse to refer to their pastors as their teachers, or refuse to call the people who teach their children teachers as well.
“Call no man teacher” is just as much a part of “Call no man father” in Scripture. . . althoughly strangely enough St. Paul calls himself both and accepts the titles from his flock as well.
<>
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thrufaithalone
Guest
Ex. 25:40-“And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount”
Hebrews 8:5 “Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount”
Mary didn’t exist yet. The Ark was a box; a copy of the true Ark in heaven; Mary didn’t exist yet.
Mary said “Do whatever He tells you”
Jesus said “Come to Me”
God says “Seek My face”
“Pray, then, in this way: ‘Our Father…’”
J
jmcrae
Guest
Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant in the sense that she bore the Word of God (Jesus) in her womb, in the same way that the Ark of the Old Covenant bore the Ten Commandments (the Law), the Rod of Aaron (the priesthood), and the manna (Bread of Life) in its interior.
St. John was looking at Mary up in Heaven when he saw the Ark of the New Covenant in Heaven. She replaces the Ark of the Old Covenant, because that covenant is no longer in effect - it ceased to exist when Christ died for our sins on the Cross, so there would be no need for there to be an Ark of the Old Covenant in Heaven.
Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant - not the Old.
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nilofc
Guest
What made the Ark of the Covenant the holiest object for the early Jews?
The ark of the covenant contained…
(1) The Manna - the bread that came down from heaven to feed the people of Israel.
(2) The staff of Aaron which symbolizes priesthood.
(3) The two tablets of the 10 commandments which is the Law or the word of God.
*What was inside Mama Mary? * Jesus.
(1) The bread of life which came down from heaven.
(2) Jesus - our High Priest.
(3) Jesus as the Word of God became flesh.
…see anything familiar or similar?
C
Canto
Guest
Matthew 23
9And call no man your Father upon earth, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.
When were read the bible in context we see that we don’t need to poke our eye out
In context we see that we don’t need to hate our father and mother
And in context of verse 9 we see that the Pharisees were usurping the Fatherhood of God
They had a big hissy-fit if someone didn’t wash their hand or some commandant they invented, yet the commandments God gave they were ignoring.
So Jesus says call not man Father with a capitol F.
Jesus is saying call no one God and view no one as God except God
10Neither be called Teacher, for one is your Teacher, the Christ.
Are children not to call school teachers teacher
Are piano tutors not be called piano teachers
Romans 4:16
16 Therefore is it of faith, that according to grace the promise might be firm to all the seed: not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Paul calls Abraham the father of us all
*1 Corinthians 4:15
15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.
Philemon 1:10
10 I beseech thee for my son, whom I have begotten in my bands, Onesimus *
Not many fathers – using call no man father logic we would have our biological father and God yet Paul seems to suggest he is implying more than just two in the not many
When you have begotten someone you become their father
Some modern translations read of 1 Cor 4:15 …whose father I [Paul] became…
*2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son. Grace, mercy and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Lord. *
*Titus 1:4
Titus, my beloved son according to the common faith, grace and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. *
If Timothy and Titus are his beloved sons, and Paul is not their biological father, than he must be their father in faith, like a priest.
9And call no man your Father upon earth, for one is your Father, he who is in heaven.
When were read the bible in context we see that we don’t need to poke our eye out
In context we see that we don’t need to hate our father and mother
And in context of verse 9 we see that the Pharisees were usurping the Fatherhood of God
They had a big hissy-fit if someone didn’t wash their hand or some commandant they invented, yet the commandments God gave they were ignoring.
So Jesus says call not man Father with a capitol F.
Jesus is saying call no one God and view no one as God except God
10Neither be called Teacher, for one is your Teacher, the Christ.
Are children not to call school teachers teacher
Are piano tutors not be called piano teachers
Romans 4:16
16 Therefore is it of faith, that according to grace the promise might be firm to all the seed: not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,
Paul calls Abraham the father of us all
*1 Corinthians 4:15
15 For if you have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in Christ Jesus, by the gospel, I have begotten you.
Philemon 1:10
10 I beseech thee for my son, whom I have begotten in my bands, Onesimus *
Not many fathers – using call no man father logic we would have our biological father and God yet Paul seems to suggest he is implying more than just two in the not many
When you have begotten someone you become their father
Some modern translations read of 1 Cor 4:15 …whose father I [Paul] became…
*2 Timothy 1:2
To Timothy, my dearly beloved son. Grace, mercy and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Lord. *
*Titus 1:4
Titus, my beloved son according to the common faith, grace and peace, from God the Father and from Christ Jesus our Saviour. *
If Timothy and Titus are his beloved sons, and Paul is not their biological father, than he must be their father in faith, like a priest.
W
wellington
Guest
The answers to the issue i brought up regarding the harmony of the Catholic Church and the Bible are all much appreciated. Thanks to all who responded, and i know, in one way or another, this discussion is helping all of us.
Now, since the replies are not so few to address, i would like to try my best to sum up some of the points that, in my opinion, needs more pondering and clarification;
For it is no less than a Catholic Priest, Juan Trinidad, in his book with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur by catholic Authorites, says otherwise.
“Since this is off topic for the thread I’ll end with this… You seem to agree that the word “father” WAS used for others in the Bible… so then you’re only argument can be that we put priests and the Pope on the same level as God when we call them “father”… well we don’t… does this help… Paul’s relationship as father to the ones he taught is how we see our fatherly relationship with a priest.
Whether you believe it or not isn’t my job… you’re initial concern was the word “father”… I showed you that others were called “father” also… so to switch to assuming you know what we mean when we say father is something completely different and all I can say is that when we say “father” to a priest or parent it is completely different than when we call God “Father”… plain and simple.”
Does the Catholic Church now denies their publications with their “NIHIL OBSTAT” and “IMPRIMATUR” as if those are not the real stand of the Church? Then we shall be obliged to respond to the next breath… why does the Church allowed the printing of such publications?
Two points I want to raise here:
First, as JKRH is saying, that the Catholic Church ASEMBLED, KEPT, COPIED, TRANSLATED and PROTECTED the BIBLE, then why neglect its significance? What’s the protection for? If the “book” will not be regarded as basis of faith?
Second, on your question why would the Church allow such a CLEAR and BLATANTLY ANTIBIBLICAL TITLE to exist, that’s precisely what we are discussing here. Sirs, I have no intentions to offend anyone, but if you’ll let this discussion benefit us all, let us open our hearts and patiently share our thoughts, as to arrive to the truth. I am not giving my own interpretation here, but plainly stating what the bible teaches. In fact, the very question that you posed should be addressed to the Catholic Church. Why the need for such a title? Why teach the the POPE is the HIGHEST FATHER OF SOULS HERE ON EARTH? And priests as fathers of souls, too?
Now, since the replies are not so few to address, i would like to try my best to sum up some of the points that, in my opinion, needs more pondering and clarification;
- The bible, though it is said to be a “product” of the Church, (i’m more inclined to believe that it is God’s will that the “book” be produced, not just a simple book that is written and can be ignored in anyway…), should not, in any way, contradict the teachings of the Church, or vice versa. Suffice to say, that both should be true, no one belittling or denying the other. So, i see no problem in basing our faith in the bible. Unless, the Catholic Church would admit that there are things written in the bible that they now neglect. Is the Catholic Church then is saying that her bishops and priests are more credible than the bible? Then, how do we reconcile it with Apostle paul’s admonition that if there is one apostle, or even an angel from heaven, that will preach something different from the gospel that they already taught, that apostle, or angel must be cast away.
1.1 Thus, - The admonition to call no man your FATHER is not without significance. Jesus and everyone else fully understand that the title FATHER is being used to our biological fathers, and other men on earth in many other ways. But the verse is basically and explicitly refers to the title as being used to God, our Father. And GOD is the FATHER, the ONLY FATHER OF OUR SOULS. In this manner that no one should call any man in earth FATHER. But as we can see in Catholic doctrines, it is explicitly saying that the POPE is the HIGHEST FATHER OF SOULS HERE ON EARTH. Apostle Paul never used that title to refer to him or to any apostle. Abraham was also called FATHER but there was never any claim that he is a FATHER OF SOULS. Hence, the assertion of ROBHOM in his reply #121 is in question here:
For it is no less than a Catholic Priest, Juan Trinidad, in his book with Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur by catholic Authorites, says otherwise.
Code:
2.1 Concomitant to this, I would like to pose this question; Then, how do catholics reconcile with the admoniton "call no man your father..."? How do you view such a commandment?
2.2 And to address the SD CATHOLIC in reply # 123 that says:Whether you believe it or not isn’t my job… you’re initial concern was the word “father”… I showed you that others were called “father” also… so to switch to assuming you know what we mean when we say father is something completely different and all I can say is that when we say “father” to a priest or parent it is completely different than when we call God “Father”… plain and simple.”
Does the Catholic Church now denies their publications with their “NIHIL OBSTAT” and “IMPRIMATUR” as if those are not the real stand of the Church? Then we shall be obliged to respond to the next breath… why does the Church allowed the printing of such publications?
- JKRH say:
Two points I want to raise here:
First, as JKRH is saying, that the Catholic Church ASEMBLED, KEPT, COPIED, TRANSLATED and PROTECTED the BIBLE, then why neglect its significance? What’s the protection for? If the “book” will not be regarded as basis of faith?
Second, on your question why would the Church allow such a CLEAR and BLATANTLY ANTIBIBLICAL TITLE to exist, that’s precisely what we are discussing here. Sirs, I have no intentions to offend anyone, but if you’ll let this discussion benefit us all, let us open our hearts and patiently share our thoughts, as to arrive to the truth. I am not giving my own interpretation here, but plainly stating what the bible teaches. In fact, the very question that you posed should be addressed to the Catholic Church. Why the need for such a title? Why teach the the POPE is the HIGHEST FATHER OF SOULS HERE ON EARTH? And priests as fathers of souls, too?
- If indeed, MARY is without sin, I would like to know why? For it is also written that all men sinned. What is the Catholic Church’s official stand about this?
B
benny4victory
Guest
wellington, i was told in a sermon by father john corapi, that many bishops and priests and the pope ect, are consulted on what should and shouldnt be doctrine, these are spiritual people, and being ordained into the church, god works through them. jesus founded the catholic church to carry on his teachings, if you cant believe that then you may as well throw your bible out the window for somwon else to find. sorry if that sounds harsh, there is alot that can be contradicted by people who dont know what their doing, thank god jesus gave us the church, all you have to do is trust them and you will do fine, because to trust them is to trust jesus. nowon will hold it against you.
may god bless you
may god bless you
W
wellington
Guest
Thanks brother, for that reply. I do also believe in Jesus;the story of his life and ministry can be found in the bible, and he admonished us everyone to hold on to our faith. I find comfort in reading those passages in the bible, the letters of Apostle paul to the early Christians, to the Ephesians and Colossians…
The stories of ancient Israel… I am really fascinated in God’s ways of saving his people… caring for them… though sometimes they were so stubborn and wicked-minded…
The bible also has sufficient account of how the early Christians conducted themselves. I learned also from Apostle Paul in his letter to Timothy that there is ONE GOD, and ONE MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD AND MEN, THE MAN CHRIST JESUS…
There’s so many things you will learn from the bible… the bible that is said to be assembled, copied, translated, and proptected by the catholic Church for so many centuries…
Thanks and may the Good Lord bless us all!
- Status