B
benny4victory
Guest
no worries, god bless brother,
benny
benny
- Status
N
NotWorthy
Guest
Both underlined are correct. God willed that it be written by fallible men, though guided by the Holy Spirit in their writings. Just as the Holy Spirit guided the Church to pick and choose from over 100 books (that various individual churches at one time treated as Scriptural, i.e. St. Clement’s Epistle to the Corinthians) to determine the 27 which now make up our New Testament.
And Catholics believe that none of the Bible can be ignored, including the seven deuterocanonicals.
you are falling into the dilemma of failing to see the forest for the trees. The entire context of that passage is that the Pharisees are clamoring for places of honor and titles and authority over others. Read the context of this verse and you’ll see why the Pharisees are chastised. The Pope or anyone who is our Father, is our Father only in asmuch as they are teaching us to walk in His Ways. This is the context of Paul calling other’s his children. This is the context of Abraham being called our Father. There’s no conflict. Christ tells us that "whoever rejects you (the Apostles) rejects Me (Christ)… and the one who sent Me (God the Father). Our Pope and Bishops are the spiritual descendants of the Apostles. I have no problem trusting Christ’s Promises that the Church will lead me to all truth and hence, calling these people my Father, for they take nothing away from God the Father Almighty!
I don’t understand this point. If it’s been addressed, please remind me. What is the context of this, for Catholics place absolutely nobody on the same level of God.
I don’t understand this question, for the Church does not neglect its significance. Where in the world do these accusations come from. The Bible is part of the three-legged stool that props up the Church. Without the Bible, the Church would fall into oblivion.
If Peter was “First Apostle”, then his successor should be first, the Vicar of Christ on earth. If my priest, who delivers the Sacraments to me is not a spiritual father to me, then I don’t know who is.
please address the context of the statement in Romans. What is the context of the two psalms that Paul is quoting? Find that, and you’ll find your answer. In other words, read the bible like a Christian, not like a lawyer!
Why do I get the feeling that your true prayer is that the full knowledge about salvation be revealed to each and everyone of us, especially those misguided Catholics!
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
Hmmmm… this is an interesting statement that got me thinking… Probably in the modern world it would because few would trust the Church without the Bible… but if God promised it not to fail then??? But then again I’m sure he knew we would always have the total sum of those 3 legs… But we also know that it stood for well over 300 yrs without a “Bible”, so I think it would definetly be the only one that would stand a chance at allI don’t understand this question, for the Church does not neglect its significance. Where in the world do these accusations come from. The Bible is part of the three-legged stool that props up the Church. Without the Bible, the Church would fall into oblivion.
]!
…disclaimer: These comments in no way reflect the idea that I don’t think we need a Bible… it is an indispensable part of the Catholic Church and will be till the end of time… merely an interesting thought typed out
SD
T
tm30
Guest
Thanks for playing. I don’t buy for one second that you’re a lapsed Catholic. Where did you make your first communion? What’s your confirmation name? What parish did you last attend?
Feel free to argue about Mary, but your claim of being an ex-Catholic is totally transparent and evidenced by the boilerplate on display in paragraph 2 of the post which I sourced above.
S
Soutane
Guest
I find that this posing as a Catholic by anti -Catholics for purposes of posting on this forum is becoming more and more common-I don’t know what they hope to gain by this charade because IT IS SO TRANSPARENT.Deceit is a SIN.Lying is a SIN.You are only hurting yourself.Too bad you don’t have access to the sacrament of reconciliation.
S
Soutane
Guest
The Catholic Mary is the ONLY Mary.The protestant Mary is some kind of brood mare,"just another dead lady nobody special,certainly no one we’d ever call blessed. "
"
J
JRKH
Guest
I would caustion my fellow posters about whether someone is an ex-catholic or not based upon the contents of their posts.
Given the horrible state of catachesis over the last 30 to 40 years, and given the possiblibity that a person might have been raised in a - nominal or cultural - catholic family it is quite possible for a person to fall for the kind of drivvel espoused a coupled of posts ago.
So, in my opinion the person may WELL have been baptized catholic and even confirmed and still fall into this kind of snare.
Let us pray for this person.
Peace
James
Given the horrible state of catachesis over the last 30 to 40 years, and given the possiblibity that a person might have been raised in a - nominal or cultural - catholic family it is quite possible for a person to fall for the kind of drivvel espoused a coupled of posts ago.
So, in my opinion the person may WELL have been baptized catholic and even confirmed and still fall into this kind of snare.
Let us pray for this person.
Peace
James
J
jmcrae
Guest
True; we heard in another thread about an RCIA leader saying that the Catholic Church was “started” by Emperor Constantine.
(What do people think was going on for 300 years in between the death of Christ and the conversion of Constantine?
)
C
cthulhubryan
Guest
This sounds amazingly close to the Wesley Quadralateral that I learned as a Methodist. The main part of the stool is Scripture which is the main source for us as Christians. The three legs are Tradition, experience and reason.
In this thinking, Tradition must be capitalized as it refers to Tradition and not the thing we did last year. Jesus did not leave us videos explaining everything. He left the dissemination of the information to His disciples and their disciples, etc. Thus we have Tradition whereby the disciples as well as the fathers and doctors of the Church passed down what they did and knew.
Does anyone but me here Rev Tevya yelling in the background everytime they write the word Tradition?
J
jmcrae
Guest
For us Catholics, the main stool and leg #1 is the Apostolic Tradition, with the Magisterium and the Scriptures propping up the other two sides.
And most of it was passed down in the form of ritual and hymnody - the Mass, the Litanies, the Rites, the Divine Office, etc.
He was right.
J
joe370
Guest
I have recently left the church because of this issue. I hope someone can prove me wrong.
The Catholic Church believes that Mary is sacred and holy. They have statues of Mary in their churches, even though this is against God’s commandment. Exodus 20:4-5 “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them…”
**Clearly this was a commandment to Israelites, NOT to make statues of anything in the heavens (the sky) and earth for the simple reason that they represent Nothing; these reputed pagan gods were blasphemes because they defocused from the real (only) God. The “blessed” Mary is in heaven and she “magnifies the Lord;” she brings focus on her Son.Catholics don’t worship Mary; she is an object of adoration. However if you believe catholics worship Mary, there really isn’t anything more that can be said! **
They pray to Mary. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell us to pray to Mary, or any other person, but it tells us only to pray to God the Father. Matthew 6:6 “But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.” They pray to Mary because they believe that she intercedes for us. This is not supported by any Scripture, but Scripture states that Jesus intercedes for us. Hebrews 7:25 “Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.”
**When we “pray to Mary” we are merely asking Mary and/or the Saints to pray for us in exactly the same way as when we ask another Christian to pray for us. This is nothing more than asking for intercessory prayer. And just like most Christians ,when we are in need of prayer we ask those we consider to be closest to God. If I need prayer for healing for my mom with cancer I will not ask the drug dealer on the corner or even a nominal Christian to pray for me. Instead, I ask the holiest Christians I know. After all, James 5:16 says, “the fervent prayer of a righteous man is very powerful”.
Misunderstanding arises between Protestants and Catholics because of our use of the phrase “pray to Mary” or “pray to St. Francis” etc. For Protestants, with a shorter history, prayer is only and always directed to God. However, for Catholics the older uses of the English “pray” have endured through the centuries. In medieval English it was common to use the word “pray” as a synonym for “ask”. I pray thee, good king, give me …. Plus, as usual in human speech this phraseology has endured because it is short and sweet. It is easier to say, I will pray to Mary than to say, I will ask Mary to pray to God for me. While the second sentence is more theologically accurate it is also more than twice as long. So, no one uses it in everyday speech.
Despite this colloquialism, the prayers of the Church are theologically correct. For instance, in the Hail Mary we say, “Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” and in the I Confess we say, “And I ask blessed Mary, all the angels and saints, and you my brothers and sisters to pray for me to the Lord our God.” However, if you don’t feel comfortable asking people in heaven who are already made perfect --don’t!!**
To be continued…
J
joe370
Guest
Without a doubt Mary was a blessed woman, but she was not perfect.
**Why the “Blessed” Mother Mary had to be Immaculate…
It is absolutely, unequivocally mandatory for all to be made immaculate (Free from stain or blemish; PURE!!!) --before we can enter into God’s ETHEREAL FLAWLESS Kingdom –Heaven, where we will “see the Lord face to face.” God abhors sin!!! This is impossible in the earthly realm. After all, God said, “No man can see Me and live!” (Ex. 33:20). John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 both say, “No one has seen God at any time.” Timothy 6:16 declares that God “alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.” (here on earth) Indeed, God is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” (Hab. 1:13). As long as we are tainted by sin, we cannot see God; we cannot become “one” with God. The view of such perfect righteousness/love would destroy us.
God is therefore inaccessible to mortal man on a face-to-face basis. This is what made Christ’s incarnation so wonderful: although no man has ever seen God at any time, “the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him” (John 1:18). Christ “tabernacled among us” (John 1:14)-“and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.” He came to our world to dwell among us, and He did it in order to redeem us and take us to heaven, where Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will dwell in our midst in perfect fellowship. What an ineffable reality!
In heaven, we will be free from sin, thanks to Jesus’ perfect expiation —Himself --an absolute necessity to see God’s glory unveiled in its fullness. That will be a more pleasing, spectacular sight than anything we have known or could ever imagine on earth. (words can’t express it) No mere earthly pleasure can even begin to measure up to the privilege and the ecstasy of an unhindered view of the divine glory.
Matthew 5:8 says, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” The Greek verb translated “see” (horao) is in a tense that denotes a future, continuous reality. In heaven we will continually be seeing God. Kings generally seclude themselves from direct contact with their people. It is a rare privilege to have an audience with a king. But believers in heaven will forever have perfect, unbroken fellowship with the Lord of Lord King of Kings!
So, to bring my point home, if no man/woman can enter Gods infinite sanctuary (become one with the Trinity) unless he/she is made immaculate, (which is only possible through Jesus Christ; “I am the way the truth and life no one comes to the Father except through me”; He is our one and only savior) --then it only stands to reason that our infinite God would never physically enter into a person (become one with corrupt flesh due to original/venial sin) --who is tainted with sin.
If (on earth) --“No one has seen God at any time.” --AND “God alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.” AND God is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” (Hab. 1:13). then, as long as we are tainted by sin, we cannot see God; we cannot become “one” with God because the view of such perfect righteousness/love would destroy us, according to your Bible.
If this is all true and it is according to your Bible, how can you for a second think that God (recall the Trinity) –would enter into the uterus of the “blessed” Mother Mary (Jesus’ temporary dwelling) --for nine months!!! Logically speaking, Mary would have to be an immaculate, holy, sacred and sinless vessel for the Divine to become one with her flesh, just as Christians must be immaculate, holy, sacred and sinless before entering into heaven (our permanent dwelling). Of course both statements are true thanks to our one and only savior Jesus the Christ. Jesus is Mary’s savior just as He is everyone’s savior; she is no exception, by her own admission, “And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” Luke 1:46-47 --If God (Jesus/Holy Spirit) -is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” then certainly God would not allow His Son to became one with corrupt flesh, tainted by sin; this bond is absolutely impossible in the earthly sinful realm, according to your bible. Sin is what irrevocably separated us from God in the first place, until Jesus defeated death. Remember, what Paul said about God: “God alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light, (a place where sinners cannot dwell) whom no man has seen or can see.” Your bible, regarding God says, “No man can see Me and live!” If the “blessed” Mother Mary ( a finite human ) was a temporary dwelling place ( 9 months) for the infinite immortal unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see and live, due to our sinful nature, then Mary, via logical deduction must have been Conceived Immaculately; otherwise God could not have been approachable and Mary could not have survived the union. If you still deny this obvious fact, then you must deny the “word” of God.
Bottom line --by Gods infinite loving standards, it would have been impossible for Mary to be one with God if she wasn’t immaculately conceived, just as it will be impossible for all people, once they die, to become one with God, unless they are immaculately conceived (made sinless) --when they die --(God defeated death; the first resurrection)! Of course we have Jesus the Christ to think for Mary’s immaculate state and our eventual immaculate state once we are joined with God in Heaven…
**
**Why the “Blessed” Mother Mary had to be Immaculate…
It is absolutely, unequivocally mandatory for all to be made immaculate (Free from stain or blemish; PURE!!!) --before we can enter into God’s ETHEREAL FLAWLESS Kingdom –Heaven, where we will “see the Lord face to face.” God abhors sin!!! This is impossible in the earthly realm. After all, God said, “No man can see Me and live!” (Ex. 33:20). John 1:18 and 1 John 4:12 both say, “No one has seen God at any time.” Timothy 6:16 declares that God “alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.” (here on earth) Indeed, God is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” (Hab. 1:13). As long as we are tainted by sin, we cannot see God; we cannot become “one” with God. The view of such perfect righteousness/love would destroy us.
God is therefore inaccessible to mortal man on a face-to-face basis. This is what made Christ’s incarnation so wonderful: although no man has ever seen God at any time, “the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him” (John 1:18). Christ “tabernacled among us” (John 1:14)-“and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father.” He came to our world to dwell among us, and He did it in order to redeem us and take us to heaven, where Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will dwell in our midst in perfect fellowship. What an ineffable reality!
In heaven, we will be free from sin, thanks to Jesus’ perfect expiation —Himself --an absolute necessity to see God’s glory unveiled in its fullness. That will be a more pleasing, spectacular sight than anything we have known or could ever imagine on earth. (words can’t express it) No mere earthly pleasure can even begin to measure up to the privilege and the ecstasy of an unhindered view of the divine glory.
Matthew 5:8 says, “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.” The Greek verb translated “see” (horao) is in a tense that denotes a future, continuous reality. In heaven we will continually be seeing God. Kings generally seclude themselves from direct contact with their people. It is a rare privilege to have an audience with a king. But believers in heaven will forever have perfect, unbroken fellowship with the Lord of Lord King of Kings!
So, to bring my point home, if no man/woman can enter Gods infinite sanctuary (become one with the Trinity) unless he/she is made immaculate, (which is only possible through Jesus Christ; “I am the way the truth and life no one comes to the Father except through me”; He is our one and only savior) --then it only stands to reason that our infinite God would never physically enter into a person (become one with corrupt flesh due to original/venial sin) --who is tainted with sin.
If (on earth) --“No one has seen God at any time.” --AND “God alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.” AND God is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” (Hab. 1:13). then, as long as we are tainted by sin, we cannot see God; we cannot become “one” with God because the view of such perfect righteousness/love would destroy us, according to your Bible.
If this is all true and it is according to your Bible, how can you for a second think that God (recall the Trinity) –would enter into the uterus of the “blessed” Mother Mary (Jesus’ temporary dwelling) --for nine months!!! Logically speaking, Mary would have to be an immaculate, holy, sacred and sinless vessel for the Divine to become one with her flesh, just as Christians must be immaculate, holy, sacred and sinless before entering into heaven (our permanent dwelling). Of course both statements are true thanks to our one and only savior Jesus the Christ. Jesus is Mary’s savior just as He is everyone’s savior; she is no exception, by her own admission, “And Mary said, “My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior” who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” Luke 1:46-47 --If God (Jesus/Holy Spirit) -is “of purer eyes than to behold evil, and cannot look on wickedness” then certainly God would not allow His Son to became one with corrupt flesh, tainted by sin; this bond is absolutely impossible in the earthly sinful realm, according to your bible. Sin is what irrevocably separated us from God in the first place, until Jesus defeated death. Remember, what Paul said about God: “God alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light, (a place where sinners cannot dwell) whom no man has seen or can see.” Your bible, regarding God says, “No man can see Me and live!” If the “blessed” Mother Mary ( a finite human ) was a temporary dwelling place ( 9 months) for the infinite immortal unapproachable light whom no man has seen or can see and live, due to our sinful nature, then Mary, via logical deduction must have been Conceived Immaculately; otherwise God could not have been approachable and Mary could not have survived the union. If you still deny this obvious fact, then you must deny the “word” of God.
Bottom line --by Gods infinite loving standards, it would have been impossible for Mary to be one with God if she wasn’t immaculately conceived, just as it will be impossible for all people, once they die, to become one with God, unless they are immaculately conceived (made sinless) --when they die --(God defeated death; the first resurrection)! Of course we have Jesus the Christ to think for Mary’s immaculate state and our eventual immaculate state once we are joined with God in Heaven…
**
J
joe370
Guest
Your bible, regarding God says, “No man can see Me and live!” “God alone has immortality dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see.”
If God’s dwelling place is in unapproachable light, (no sinner is allowed to become one with God) and God did indeed dwell in the womb of His Mother, the “blessed” Mary for 9 months, then Mary, by deduction must be unapproachable as well, ruling out any possibility that Joseph, a man tainted with original sin could approach Mary; if he did, according to scripture, he would not be able to live.
If God’s dwelling place is in unapproachable light, (no sinner is allowed to become one with God) and God did indeed dwell in the womb of His Mother, the “blessed” Mary for 9 months, then Mary, by deduction must be unapproachable as well, ruling out any possibility that Joseph, a man tainted with original sin could approach Mary; if he did, according to scripture, he would not be able to live.
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
I believe this word should be veneration, as I think adoration is more connected to worship as in God, and veneration is in line with the honor we give to Mary
SD
J
joe370
Guest
Perhaps you are right vis-a-vis the word adoration; veneration seems more appropriate; the point I was trying to make is —worshiping Mary is a silly deceleration…I believe this word should be veneration, as I think adoration is more connected to worship as in God, and veneration is in line with the honor we give to Mary
SD
Worship belongs to God and God ALONE…
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
N
NotWorthy
Guest
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
Yes, and no more silly decelerations!
I hereby declare that I’m a Catholic
… Now that ain’t silly!!!SD
N
nilofc
Guest
LATRIA, HYPERDULIA, DULIA.
J
joe370
Guest
Holy Obedience to the mystical body of Christ is to be obedient to the invisible head of the Church who is Jesus Christ.
**I couldn’t agree more! Jesus’ Church is His Mystical Body, the Church of the Living God, the Pillar and Foundation of Truth…
Dulia, Hyperdulia & Latria
There are three levels of reverence that we in this life offer…
Dulia - The kind and degree of honor or veneration given to angels and saints. From the Greek root meaning “slavery” or, more broadly, “respect.” Dulia is governed by ecclesiastical authority, and distinguished from hyperdulia and latria.
Hyperdulia - As its Greek roots suggest, hyperdulia is above and beyond the dulia. Hyperdulia, or extended praise, is reserved to Our Lady alone because of her role in salvation history.
Latria - This term is derived from a Greek root meaning “service,” but in Christian thought, latria has come to denote specifically that kind and degree of praise which is reserved for God alone.
*It should also be observed that the ultimate form of veneration of God is adoration expressed in sacrifice, and that the Sacrifice of the Mass is the most perfect sacrifice which can be offered to God. This form of worship in sacrifice, then, is known as latreutic worship and falls under the strict regulation of Church authority.
If Martin Luther had the belief of Mary’s Immaculate Conception, why don’t those Christians that follow the example of the reformers believe as well; Luther’s words follow:
Code:
It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary's soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God's gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).
She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).Here are some of the founders of reform commenting on Mary:
Code:
Christ, our Savior, was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that.
Code:
Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . I am inclined to agree with those who declare that 'brothers' really mean 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers.
Code:
A new lie about me is being circulated. I am supposed to have preached and written that Mary, the mother of God, was not a virgin either before or after the birth of Christ . . .
Code:
Scripture does not say or indicate that she later lost her virginity . . .
When Matthew [1:25] says that Joseph did not know Mary carnally until she had brought forth her son, it does not follow that he knew her subsequently; on the contrary, it means that he never did know her . . . This babble . . . is without justification . . . he has neither noticed nor paid any attention to either Scripture or the common idiom.Editor Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran) adds:
Code:
Luther . . . does not even consider the possibility that Mary might have had other children than Jesus. This is consistent with his lifelong acceptance of the idea of the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Code:
". . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God's grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her."
Ref: Luther's Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968
". . . she is rightly called not only the mother of the man, but also the Mother of God. . . . it is certain that Mary is the Mother of the real and true God."
Ref: Sermon on John 14. 16: Luther's Works (St. Louis, ed. Jaroslav, Pelican, Concordia. vol. 24. p. 107)
"Christ our Savior was the real and natural fruit of Mary's virginal womb. . . . This was without the cooperation of a man, and she remained a virgin after that."
(REf: On the Gospel of St. John: Luther's Works, vol. 22. p. 23, ed. Jaroslav Pelican, Concordia, 1957)
"Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her, though he had as many tongues as there are leaves on the trees." (From the Commentary on the Magnificat.)- Status