My Problems With The Church

  • Thread starter Thread starter TristanCross
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
TLM08 said:
*For my flesh is real food *and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. John 6:55-57

I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. John 15:1-4

Look at these passages from the Book of John. These are truly awesome passages, but it’s pretty clear that Jesus is speaking in literal terms.
:cool:
Click to expand...
Yes, I agree, with the flesh and blood part. .😉

Vines, doors, etc. are common metaphors. This is my body, EAT, this is not a common metaphor. He repeated at least 6 times that is FLESH is true food. That’s pretty graphic. It’s understandable that the Jews murmured among themselves, this is hard to understand. They left. Jesus did not run after them and say “WAIT, it was only a parable!” No.

This is the way these verses have been understood since the beginnings of Christianity. For you to say otherwise is just personal interpretation.
 
qui_est_ce said:
Yes, I agree, with the flesh and blood part. .😉

Vines, doors, etc. are common metaphors. This is my body, EAT, this is not a common metaphor. He repeated at least 6 times that is FLESH is true food. That’s pretty graphic. It’s understandable that the Jews murmured among themselves, this is hard to understand. They left. Jesus did not run after them and say “WAIT, it was only a parable!” No.

This is the way these verses have been understood since the beginnings of Christianity. For you to say otherwise is just personal interpretation.
Click to expand...
The reason the crowd sought Jesus that day was because they were physically hungry and wanted something to eat. (They were among the crowd that Jesus fed the previous day when he fed the 5000). These people were using Jesus as nothing but a free grocery strore.

"Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill.” John 6:26

When they got the “Bread of Life” discourse, instead of a plates of fish and piles of that delicious bread they walked away.
:cool:
 
TLM08 said:
At the council at Jerusalem the Gentile Christians were told that they were not to drink blood!

"You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things…" Acts 15:29

This is terribly problematic for the catholic interpretation of drinking the actual blood of Jesus Christ at the Mass.

:cool:
Click to expand...
The lengths that those who hate Catholicism will go to to discredit the faith never ceases to amaze me.

And of course these people seldom if ever deviate from the scripts that they are provided with. There are entire protestant ministries if you can call them that who specialize in trying to discredit Catholic teaching. If one of them ever came up with something new it might be worth listening to but they never do.

This particular line can be found in various Chic tracts that are probably still floating around. If not they are all readily available on line, for anyone who really wants to see what this type feels about the Faith.
 
TLM08 said:
At the last supper, Jesus asked to be remembered, not sacrificed.🙂
Click to expand...
The reality is English Translations and ignorance of the Old Testament, combine to mislead one into the error that Jesus simply wanted to be remembered. In the Greek Translation of the Insititution of the Eucharist we read, eis thn ho emhn anamnesis Now Anamensis in the time of Jesus was not a simple act of recalling a past event, but in being present at a past event. At the Passover even today tje Seder are admonishes that if they follow the order (Seder) of the Passover, you are not to consider that you are simply retelling a story, but by your participation in the Seder you too have come out of the Land of Egypt. This is Anamensis, to actually participate in the event, even though you are separated by time and space. Not a mere symbolic action, or a simple calling to mind.

As a child it was ingrained into me at every Passover that we participate in the Exodus in a real way by participating in the Seder. The Seder makes present the Exodus to us, and us present with those who left Egypt. When I became convinced that Jesus was the promised One, I had little difficulty believing that as God He could change bread and wine into His Body and Blood. I had no difficulty believing that Jesus Sacrifice could be present to me through time and space, at the Mass, because of the glorious manner God had allowed me to participate in the Exodus from Egypt. Not as a symbol, but as a reality. The Passover and deliverance from the hardship of Slavery of the body, was to me fully realized by the Mass, and Jesus delivering me from the Slavery of Sin.
 
Filioque said:
At the Passover even today tje Seder are admonishes that if they follow the order (Seder) of the Passover, you are not to consider that you are simply retelling a story, but by your participation in the Seder you too have come out of the Land of Egypt. This is Anamensis, to actually participate in the event, even though you are separated by time and space. Not a mere symbolic action, or a simple calling to mind.

As a child it was ingrained into me at every Passover that we participate in the Exodus in a real way by participating in the Seder. The Seder makes present the Exodus to us, and us present with those who left Egypt. When I became convinced that Jesus was the promised One, I had little difficulty believing that as God He could change bread and wine into His Body and Blood. I had no difficulty believing that Jesus Sacrifice could be present to me through time and space, at the Mass, because of the glorious manner God had allowed me to participate in the Exodus from Egypt. Not as a symbol, but as a reality. The Passover and deliverance from the hardship of Slavery of the body, was to me fully realized by the Mass, and Jesus delivering me from the Slavery of Sin.
Click to expand...
[SIGN]Awesome post[/SIGN] It has been ingrained in me that in under to understand the life and teachings of Jesus, we must understand what the educated Jew would have recognized. A lot of that has been lost in our culture.

This is why the Jewish leaders could be so outraged at things we find inoffensive today. Today is the feast of the Transfiguration. The significance of Moses and Elijah being present on the mountain while God proclaims Jesus as the beloved son in whom God is well-pleased was not lost on Jesus’ Jewish disciples. In the Old Testament the cloud covered the meeting tent, indicating the Lord’s presence in the midst of his people

At the transfiguration of Jesus his disciples had seen Elijah. They were perplexed because, according to the rabbinical interpretation of Elijah was to come before the Messiah. Moses was the Law, Elijah the prophet. Jesus is the fulfillment the Law and Prophecy.
 
JustaServant said:
Being that Tristin is a Protestant, she knows nothing about the Novus Ordo/TLM issue. So it is useless to even bring that up.
I have glanced however at your posting history, particularily the various threads you have started. And I have a feeling your problems with the CC find their roots in something besides the doctrinal.
If that’s what floats your boat fine. But this part of the forum is for in-house discussions among Catholics regarding the changes with the CC since Vatican 2. If you wish to discuss ‘problems with the Church’, go to the apologetics side and do so.
Thank you.
Click to expand...
Yes, Just a servant, that is the best advice, there are many excellent apologists working in that forum and they will be able to get you on the right track.👍:gopray2:
 
qui_est_ce said:
[SIGN]Awesome post[/SIGN] It has been ingrained in me that in under to understand the life and teachings of Jesus, we must understand what the educated Jew would have recognized. A lot of that has been lost in our culture.

This is why the Jewish leaders could be so outraged at things we find inoffensive today. Today is the feast of the Transfiguration. The significance of Moses and Elijah being present on the mountain while God proclaims Jesus as the beloved son in whom God is well-pleased was not lost on Jesus’ Jewish disciples. In the Old Testament the cloud covered the meeting tent, indicating the Lord’s presence in the midst of his people

At the transfiguration of Jesus his disciples had seen Elijah. They were perplexed because, according to the rabbinical interpretation of Elijah was to come before the Messiah. Moses was the Law, Elijah the prophet. Jesus is the fulfillment the Law and Prophecy.
Click to expand...
I have learned that one of the biggest problems that most Jews have in converting to
Christianity is the loss of their identity as Jews. They would have to give up their heritage.
To them this is like giving up their mother and father as parents. Imagine if we would
have to do the same. We Christians, especially Catholics, should remember that Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism and does not replace it. Our mass is based in
Judaism. We have priests,deacons and cantors, which have their equivalent in Judaism.
For more information, please visit www,hebrewcatholics,org.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem…Baruch haba a’Shem Adonai
 
DonLeon said:
I have learned that one of the biggest problems that most Jews have in converting to
Christianity is the loss of their identity as Jews. They would have to give up their heritage.
To them this is like giving up their mother and father as parents. Imagine if we would
have to do the same. We Christians, especially Catholics, should remember that Christianity is a fulfillment of Judaism and does not replace it. Our mass is based in
Judaism. We have priests,deacons and cantors, which have their equivalent in Judaism.
For more information, please visit www,hebrewcatholics,org.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem…Baruch haba a’Shem Adonai
Click to expand...
Thanks much. I guess you are a convert from Judaism? Rosalind Moss moved to St. Louis last Spring to start her new order, Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel’s Hope. I am a real fan of hers. She has been a huge influence in my understanding of Christianity from the Jewish Jesus perspective.

I have always maintained that when people (of Judeo-Christian heritage) convert to the Catholic Church, they do not leave their past religion behind, but rather come to fulfillment. They enrich the Church with their faith history. I love working with RCIA. I learn a lot about our faith from people who are entering it! :aok:
 
qui_est_ce said:
Thanks much. I guess you are a convert from Judaism? Rosalind Moss moved to St. Louis last Spring to start her new order, Daughters of Mary, Mother of Israel’s Hope. I am a real fan of hers. She has been a huge influence in my understanding of Christianity from the Jewish Jesus perspective.

I have always maintained that when people (of Judeo-Christian heritage) convert to the Catholic Church, they do not leave their past religion behind, but rather come to fulfillment. They enrich the Church with their faith history. I love working with RCIA. I learn a lot about our faith from people who are entering it! :aok:
Click to expand...
No I’m Sicilian in heritage ( I speak it ). I’ve learned about Judaism, and Hebrew, by
studying in a synagogue schul. I used to donate to Fr. Klyber’s mission, but after he died
I no longer heard anything. Then I accidently came across the Hebrew Catholic Association and I will try to help them as much as I can. You should subscribe to their Hebrew Catholic magazine. It is full of interesting items.

As for Rosalind Moss, she is gathering for her order, and if I’m not mistaken, she will soon
go to Rome for the Holy Father’s approval. We all should offer our prayers for her accept-
ance, and we should all work towards the ingrafting. God Bless you in your work.

PAX DOMINI :signofxross:

Shalom Aleichem…Baruch habba a’Shem Adonai
…( Blessed is He who comes in the Name of The Lord )…
 
DonLeon said:
Sorry, but you sound like a Jehovahs Witness. Christ said to DRINK HIS BLOOD which He offers to us for the remission of our sins and for our salvation. We do as He says. This is where private interpretation leads you to misunderstanding. Please read and understand
without interprtation. It is clear and simple.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Click to expand...
Thank you DonLeon,very good,I would like to post a couple of fine quotes. I found these in my notes I cannot remember the source,I am sorry to say, just hope they help.

Regarding Transubstantiation. Let’s get rid of the word literal. Let’s use the word “real” instead. Christ is real God and real Man. Or as we say, true God and true Man. Looking at Christ eating with His apostles that last night, we see His physical characteristics: how tall He is, the color of His hair, His broad shoulders. We hear the sound of His voice. These are the appearances or outward signs of Christ’s earthly presence. After His Resurrection, those appearances changed.

In his marvelous account of the two disciples walking to Emmaus, Luke describes Jesus looking like a stranger as He approaches the two men. Even though they did not recognize Christ, they later recalled that their hearts were burning within them. There was something about the stranger’s “inner being” which was very familiar. While Jesus was eating with the two disciples, He took bread, said the blessings, broke it, and gave it to them. At that moment, Jesus, Lord and Savior, was recognized. (Luke 24: 13-35)

After His ascension, Christ continues to be with us. Again, His appearances, the outward signs of His physical earthly body are gone. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ is now substantially present under the outward appearances (signs) of bread and wine. The inner being, the substance which makes bread, bread, has been changed into the Real Presence of Christ. This is the meaning of
Transubstantiation.
Code: 
 Another Quote,
I suppose that if you believe the Eucharist is “literally” Jesus, then you would expect that
breaking a Host “breaks” Christ, or that one part of the Host is his head, another part is his

foot, etc. But that is not the way Jesus is present in the Eucharist. His presence is
sacramentaland substantial: the substance is Christ, the appearance is bread. Carlan
 
Carlan said:
Thank you DonLeon,very good,I would like to post a couple of fine quotes. I found these in my notes I cannot remember the source,I am sorry to say, just hope they help.

Regarding Transubstantiation. Let’s get rid of the word literal. Let’s use the word “real” instead. Christ is real God and real Man. Or as we say, true God and true Man. Looking at Christ eating with His apostles that last night, we see His physical characteristics: how tall He is, the color of His hair, His broad shoulders. We hear the sound of His voice. These are the appearances or outward signs of Christ’s earthly presence. After His Resurrection, those appearances changed.

In his marvelous account of the two disciples walking to Emmaus, Luke describes Jesus looking like a stranger as He approaches the two men. Even though they did not recognize Christ, they later recalled that their hearts were burning within them. There was something about the stranger’s “inner being” which was very familiar. While Jesus was eating with the two disciples, He took bread, said the blessings, broke it, and gave it to them. At that moment, Jesus, Lord and Savior, was recognized. (Luke 24: 13-35)

After His ascension, Christ continues to be with us. Again, His appearances, the outward signs of His physical earthly body are gone. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ is now substantially present under the outward appearances (signs) of bread and wine. The inner being, the substance which makes bread, bread, has been changed into the Real Presence of Christ. This is the meaning of
Transubstantiation.
Code: 
 Another Quote,
I suppose that if you believe the Eucharist is “literally” Jesus, then you would expect that
breaking a Host “breaks” Christ, or that one part of the Host is his head, another part is his

foot, etc. But that is not the way Jesus is present in the Eucharist. His presence is
sacramentaland substantial: the substance is Christ, the appearance is bread. Carlan
Click to expand...
Now that’s deep. I love your choice of words, REAL, as opposed to LITERAL.

God bless. :highprayer:
 
Carlan said:
Regarding Transubstantiation. Let’s get rid of the word literal. Let’s use the word “real” instead. Christ is real God and real Man. Or as we say, true God and true Man. Looking at Christ eating with His apostles that last night, we see His physical characteristics: how tall He is, the color of His hair, His broad shoulders. We hear the sound of His voice. These are the appearances or outward signs of Christ’s earthly presence. After His Resurrection, those appearances changed.

In his marvelous account of the two disciples walking to Emmaus, Luke describes Jesus looking like a stranger as He approaches the two men. Even though they did not recognize Christ, they later recalled that their hearts were burning within them. There was something about the stranger’s “inner being” which was very familiar. While Jesus was eating with the two disciples, He took bread, said the blessings, broke it, and gave it to them. At that moment, Jesus, Lord and Savior, was recognized. (Luke 24: 13-35)

After His ascension, Christ continues to be with us. Again, His appearances, the outward signs of His physical earthly body are gone. In the Sacrament of the Eucharist, Christ is now substantially present under the outward appearances (signs) of bread and wine. The inner being, the substance which makes bread, bread, has been changed into the Real Presence of Christ. This is the meaning of
Transubstantiation.
Code: 
 Another Quote,
I suppose that if you believe the Eucharist is “literally” Jesus, then you would expect that
breaking a Host “breaks” Christ, or that one part of the Host is his head, another part is his

foot, etc. But that is not the way Jesus is present in the Eucharist. His presence is
sacramentaland substantial: the substance is Christ, the appearance is bread. Carlan
Click to expand...
A good distinction, however the body of the Jesus we know, love and believe upon is the Glorified Body, and today the Feast of the Transfiguration, we also know that He is not limited by the body he took upon Himself at the Incarnation.
 
Filioque said:
A good distinction, however the body of the Jesus we know, love and believe upon is the Glorified Body, and today the Feast of the Transfiguration, we also know that He is not limited by the body he took upon Himself at the Incarnation.
Click to expand...
I praise and thank God that you are all here to post your understanding. Christ is actually,
really and truly, present in the Eucharist. For He told us that He is the Bread of Heaven and to eat of His Flesh and to drink of His Blood so that we may never hunger or thirst again.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
 
DonLeon said:
I praise and thank God that you are all here to post your understanding. Christ is actually,
really and truly, present in the Eucharist. For He told us that He is the Bread of Heaven and to eat of His Flesh and to drink of His Blood so that we may never hunger or thirst again.

PAX DOMINI :signofcross:

Shalom Aleichem
Click to expand...
Amen.DonLeon:love::getholy:
 
Carlan said:
Regarding Transubstantiation. Let’s get rid of the word literal. Let’s use the word “real” instead. Christ is real God and real Man. Or as we say, true God and true Man.
Click to expand...
I think we do take the words of Christ literally. I don’t think we can get rid of the word altogether! :).
Carlan said:
In his marvelous account of the two disciples walking to Emmaus, Luke describes Jesus looking like a stranger as He approaches the two men. Even though they did not recognize Christ, they later recalled that their hearts were burning within them. There was something about the stranger’s “inner being” which was very familiar. While Jesus was eating with the two disciples, He took bread, said the blessings, broke it, and gave it to them. At that moment, Jesus, Lord and Savior, was recognized. (Luke 24: 13-35)

After His ascension, Christ continues to be with us. Again, His appearances, the outward signs of His physical earthly body are gone.
Click to expand...

Are you saying that His appearances were gone the entire time after His resurrection and before the ascension? Sorry if I’m just misunderstanding you, but I think that before the ascension His physical earthly body was there and visible, even if something different about him at first blinded the disciples. St. Thomas the Apostle asked for and received the chance to put his hands into Christ’s hands and sides. The disciples saw him eat fish with them, and they saw the same man that they saw before he died.​

I think that in the Holy Eucharist the substance of Christ is literally present - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is only His appearances that are not present. What we see when the host is broken is appearances - Christ does not change. But when we adore the Blessed Sacrament we adore Christ under those other appearances.

Transubstantiation is probably the greatest mystery of our faith. Saints and theologians, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, have not tried to solve the mystery, but to explore the wonder of it. They base their reasoning on what the Church teaches.
 
nkbeth said:

I think we do take the words of Christ literally. I don’t think we can get rid of the word altogether! :).
Are you saying that His appearances were gone the entire time after His resurrection and before the ascension? Sorry if I’m just misunderstanding you, but I think that before the ascension His physical earthly body was there and visible, even if something different about him at first blinded the disciples. St. Thomas the Apostle asked for and received the chance to put his hands into Christ’s hands and sides. The disciples saw him eat fish with them, and they saw the same man that they saw before he died.​

I think that in the Holy Eucharist the substance of Christ is literally present - Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity. It is only His appearances that are not present. What we see when the host is broken is appearances - Christ does not change. But when we adore the Blessed Sacrament we adore Christ under those other appearances.

Transubstantiation is probably the greatest mystery of our faith. Saints and theologians, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, have not tried to solve the mystery, but to explore the wonder of it. They base their reasoning on what the Church teaches./QUOT

Right nkbeth, no debate.:thumbsup:Carlan

I just don’t like the word ‘literal’ in that sense
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top