My Problems With The Church

[DonLeon]

nkbeth:
Transubstantiation is probably the greatest mystery of our faith. Saints and theologians, especially St. Thomas Aquinas, have not tried to solve the mystery, but to explore the wonder of it. They base their reasoning on what the Church teaches.

Transubstantiation, like the Trinity has not been fully revealed to us since we would not understand it. When we meet Our Creator, He will reveal all to us and we will understand.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[jean29]

Yes, I’m considering Catholicism. I still have some problems with it, to be honest…

It seems we need to live a perfect life for salvation. That, or constant confession. I don’t get it…Even anger is classified as mortal sin. Looking at the Catholic view, it looks pretty impossible for salvation. Also, wasn’t Christ’s “It is finished” enough? Why do you still sacrifice when the final sacrifice of Christ has occurred? Again, Did He not say it was finished? Also, what about Hebrews 10?

And what about the teaching of little to no salvation outside the Church? Did Jesus not say “I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father exept through me”? Not, “The Catholic church is the way the truth and the life, no ond comes to the Father exept through it”?

Thanks. God bless

Tristan,
We all sin everyday. Repent, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins, when we repent.

Judging other christians is also spoken about in the Bible.

Mt.7:“Do not judge, or you to will be judged. 2. for the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and witth the measure you use will be measured unto you.”
3. “Why do you look at the speck of dust in your brothers eye? and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
God has a sense of humor, don’t you think?

God bless,
jean

 

[Carlan]

Tristan,
We all sin everyday. Repent, God is faithful and just to forgive our sins, when we repent.

Judging other christians is also spoken about in the Bible.

Mt.7:“Do not judge, or you to will be judged. 2. for the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and witth the measure you use will be measured unto you.”
3. “Why do you look at the speck of dust in your brothers eye? and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye?”
God has a sense of humor, don’t you think?

God bless,
jean

yes jean, how we do fall shortScripture does tell us, though, we are to judge sinful behavior, however, only God can judge the intentions of the heart.:yup: Carlan

 

[TLM08]

mark_a:
What?

You are the only one who caught that typo. But it’s funny I can’t help not to wonder if God did that!

 

[StillWondering]

Of course catholics are not vampires. But the catholic church says you most certainly do drink the real blood of Christ.

Hello there. I often look to St. Peter when I make mistakes. St. Peter is notorious for making mistakes and mistakes, but he’s so awesome in that he learned, very seriously, to listen to God and never let his ego get caught up in his mistakes.

Well, this relates to this quote for those who any trouble receiving the Eucharist while believing the host and wine has become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. Remember when Christ kneel down to wash Peter’s feet? Peter refused saying it is not appropriate and he should wash Jesus’s feet instead. After Jesus explains “Unless I wash you, you will have no inheritance of me.” Peter then jumped at this comment and asked that his head and hands be washed as well. Peter shows that we must not doubt or wonder but leap into God’s will and Christ’s teaching exuberantly. The man knows his priorities!

 

[TLM08]

Hello there. I often look to St. Peter when I make mistakes. St. Peter is notorious for making mistakes and mistakes, but he’s so awesome in that he learned, very seriously, to listen to God and never let his ego get caught up in his mistakes.

Well, this relates to this quote for those who any trouble receiving the Eucharist while believing the host and wine has become the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. Remember when Christ kneel down to wash Peter’s feet? Peter refused saying it is not appropriate and he should wash Jesus’s feet instead. After Jesus explains “Unless I wash you, you will have no inheritance of me.” Peter then jumped at this comment and asked that his head and hands be washed as well. Peter shows that we must not doubt or wonder but leap into God’s will and Christ’s teaching exuberantly. The man knows his priorities!

We are not to follow anyone’s teachings blindly. The Bible itself encourages us to search the scriptures to confirm the truth and expose errant teachings. The Bereans were even given praise for checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself! Oddly, Catholics are not allowed to do this

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11

While the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the host literally becomes the real physical body and blood of Our Lord, the Bible simply does not support this.

 

[judechild]

We are not to follow anyone’s teachings blindly. The Bible itself encourages us to search the scriptures to confirm the truth and expose errant teachings. The Bereans were even given praise for checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself! Oddly, Catholics are not allowed to do this

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11

While the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the host literally becomes the real physical body and blood of Our Lord, the Bible simply does not support this.

Hello TLM! I’m sorry, but you don’t understand us at all . We do not blindly follow anymore than you blindly follow the Bible alone. We are guided by all Revelation, both in the forms of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I love to use this example: I was in the Rockie Mountains recently and while going through a mountain pass I noticed that there was a guard-rail along the outside, and the center median was perferated so that it made a noise if a car was beginning to cross it. I though to myself that someone was very thoughtful to put those there, or people could very easily get hurt; then I realized that’s what the Church does. Thanks to the Church’s authority and status as the “pillar and foundation of Truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), we know that if we start to drift away from the True Faith, if something unorthodox arises, we are warned to correct our path. This happened all throughout history and continues today; from the early centuries when the Church opposed Arianism, Nestorianism, and Docetism, to her opposition to contraception today. Like the guard-rail, the Church’s teachings are not meant to oppress or limit our free-thought, they are there to help us make good decisions. Like the guard-rail though, we can also disregard it, but I believe that is spiritually disasterous.

You say the Bible simply does not support the doctrine of Transubstantiation, but please give us some credit. There are many threads that have debated this and have shown several biblical proofs for it. We’re not mindless drones, we have faith in our Church.

 

[Elizabeth502]

TLM,

I would like to echo the beginning of post 85. Scripture study requires a great deal of training and background in textual criticism, at least when it comes to technicalities of interpretation. You are getting into some detail but do not have the full context. I appreciate that in fact you have taken care to compare one passage with another, but there is much more to comparing passages than the method you are using. Knowledge of Greek is very important to interpreting what we receive as various English translations, as is understanding critical approaches to the Biblical literature.

Naturally that’s separate from universal accessbility to scripture as prayer & inspiration. Anyone can participate in *lectio divina *without an advanced degree, but theological interpretation on cerebral concepts such as Trinity, Eucharist, Justification, Redemption, etc. is not as successful without the intellectual training to support that. I respect & trust that you are sincere in your search, but I caution you not to jump to conclusions based on an initial sense of intellectual restlessness with scriptural passages that, to any lay person, or anyone untrained, appear to compete with each other. Bring your restlessness to God, please.

The bottom line to me is always this, for anyone who was raised Catholic: What is your sacramental experience? I can better understand doubts which then lead the doubter back to scripture if one has never experienced Christ in his sacraments. For those who have experienced him, everything else pales into insignificance. For me, an academic, to say that, is quite a statement, as I was born into an intellectual family. Yet ultimately a sacramental encounter with Christ is not intellectually reducible or explainable.

I look at your own personal struggles and see how your self-discipline, in conjunction with prayer in a Catholic tradition, has enabled you to overcome sin which would not be possible without that tradition. Does that mean nothing to you?

Peace and blessings,
E.

 

[Carlan]

We are not to follow anyone’s teachings blindly. The Bible itself encourages us to search the scriptures to confirm the truth and expose errant teachings. The Bereans were even given praise for checking the teachings of the apostle Paul himself! Oddly, Catholics are not allowed to do this

“Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.” Acts 17:11

While the teaching of the Catholic Church is that the host literally becomes the real physical body and blood of Our Lord, the Bible simply does not support this.

Hi :yup:TLM, read and ponder all of John 6 in prayer and if you would like more help in that area go to the Apologist forums where you will find incredible help.:yup: Carlan

 

[Carlan]

TLM,

I would like to echo the beginning of post 85. Scripture study requires a great deal of training and background in textual criticism, at least when it comes to technicalities of interpretation. You are getting into some detail but do not have the full context. I appreciate that in fact you have taken care to compare one passage with another, but there is much more to comparing passages than the method you are using. Knowledge of Greek is very important to interpreting what we receive as various English translations, as is understanding critical approaches to the Biblical literature.

Naturally that’s separate from universal accessbility to scripture as prayer & inspiration. Anyone can participate in *lectio divina *without an advanced degree, but theological interpretation on cerebral concepts such as Trinity, Eucharist, Justification, Redemption, etc. is not as successful without the intellectual training to support that. I respect & trust that you are sincere in your search, but I caution you not to jump to conclusions based on an initial sense of intellectual restlessness with scriptural passages that, to any lay person, or anyone untrained, appear to compete with each other. Bring your restlessness to God, please.

The bottom line to me is always this, for anyone who was raised Catholic: What is your sacramental experience? I can better understand doubts which then lead the doubter back to scripture if one has never experienced Christ in his sacraments. For those who have experienced him, everything else pales into insignificance. For me, an academic, to say that, is quite a statement, as I was born into an intellectual family. Yet ultimately a sacramental encounter with Christ is not intellectually reducible or explainable.

I look at your own personal struggles and see how your self-discipline, in conjunction with prayer in a Catholic tradition, has enabled you to overcome sin which would not be possible without that tradition. Does that mean nothing to you?

Peace and blessings,
E.

OOps , sorry,C

 

[Carlan]

Hello TLM! I’m sorry, but you don’t understand us at all . We do not blindly follow anymore than you blindly follow the Bible alone. We are guided by all Revelation, both in the forms of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. I love to use this example: I was in the Rockie Mountains recently and while going through a mountain pass I noticed that there was a guard-rail along the outside, and the center median was perferated so that it made a noise if a car was beginning to cross it. I though to myself that someone was very thoughtful to put those there, or people could very easily get hurt; then I realized that’s what the Church does. Thanks to the Church’s authority and status as the “pillar and foundation of Truth” (1 Tim. 3:15), we know that if we start to drift away from the True Faith, if something unorthodox arises, we are warned to correct our path. This happened all throughout history and continues today; from the early centuries when the Church opposed Arianism, Nestorianism, and Docetism, to her opposition to contraception today. Like the guard-rail, the Church’s teachings are not meant to oppress or limit our free-thought, they are there to help us make good decisions. Like the guard-rail though, we can also disregard it, but I believe that is spiritually disasterous.

You say the Bible simply does not support the doctrine of Transubstantiation, but please give us some credit. There are many threads that have debated this and have shown several biblical proofs for it. We’re not mindless drones, we have faith in our Church.

Thanks Judechild, Good Post, Carlan:thumbsup:

 

[qui_est_ce]

"TLMB09:

Look at these passages from the Book of John. These are truly awesome passages, but it’s pretty clear that Jesus is speaking in literal terms.

**
What?**

You are the only one who caught that typo. But it’s funny I can’t help not to wonder if God did that!

"TLMB09:

Look at these passages from the Book of John. These are truly awesome passages, but it’s pretty clear that Jesus is speaking in literal terms.

Yes, I agree, with the flesh and blood part. .

Vines, doors, etc. are common metaphors. This is my body, EAT, this is not a common metaphor. He repeated at least 6 times that is FLESH is true food. That’s pretty graphic. It’s understandable that the Jews murmured among themselves, this is hard to understand. They left. Jesus did not run after them and say “WAIT, it was only a parable!” No.

This is the way these verses have been understood since the beginnings of Christianity. For you to say otherwise is just personal interpretation.

 

[JustaServant]

TLM,
I’ve been following this thread even though I haven’t posted on it very much. Part of it is because I have been under the weather. But I also don’t think you realize just how much you are revealing about yourself. This is NOT an attack on you personally, yet it must be pointed out.
Here is what you wrote (edited slightly) a mere ten months ago on this forum:

BORN CATHOLIC… LIVED LIKE A HEATHEN… BECAME PROTESTANT… READ A KARL KEATING BOOK… CAME HOME… SAW NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PROTESTANT SERVICE AND CATHOLIC MASS.
Then…I decided to visit a Latin Mass about two months ago.
It was obvious that I found what had been missing… REVERENCE! I have been reading up on the Latin Mass and traditional catholicism. I’m just now finding out about the **crisis in the church ** (?) and how the Mass has been virtually destroyed by protestant influence.
So how long have I considered myself Traditional? About two months and I’m not going back!

Now, with all due respect TLM, I do not want to pry into any personal issues you might have. However, almost all reverts on this forum will tell you returning to the Catholic Church was NOT easy, nor OVERNIGHT. It was a long process. For those truly committed, they have no desire to ever return. We will all tell you that the Catholic Church had to CONVINCE us to come back. And we will all say in unison, she did.
That old post from last october is rather revealing. It tells me that you have gone back and forth like a ping pong ball. There is an unsettling within you that goes beyond theolgy. I think you are looking for theological excuses to back up whatever it is you are dealing with. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out a year from now that you have left your Protestant church and become a “heathen” again.
Whatever it is you are dealing with, is not the fault of the Catholics or the Protestants.
I pray you look a little deeper and find out why you are so unsettled.

 

[JustaServant]

None

RCIA starts in September!

 

[estesbob]

I think we do take the words of Christ literally. I don’t think we can get rid of the word altogether! .
.

I am afraid you have violated the prime directive of “Sola Scriptura”:

“Scripture is to be interpreted literally except when such an interpretation affirms a Catholic Doctrine”.

 

[qui_est_ce]

TLM,
I’ve been following this thread even though I haven’t posted on it very much. Part of it is because I have been under the weather. But I also don’t think you realize just how much you are revealing about yourself. This is NOT an attack on you personally, yet it must be pointed out.
Here is what you wrote (edited slightly) a mere ten months ago on this forum:

Now, with all due respect TLM, I do not want to pry into any personal issues you might have. However, almost all reverts on this forum will tell you returning to the Catholic Church was NOT easy, nor OVERNIGHT. It was a long process. For those truly committed, they have no desire to ever return. We will all tell you that the Catholic Church had to CONVINCE us to come back. And we will all say in unison, she did.
That old post from last october is rather revealing. It tells me that you have gone back and forth like a ping pong ball. There is an unsettling within you that goes beyond theolgy. I think you are looking for theological excuses to back up whatever it is you are dealing with. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out a year from now that you have left your Protestant church and become a “heathen” again.
Whatever it is you are dealing with, is not the fault of the Catholics or the Protestants.
I pray you look a little deeper and find out why you are so unsettled.

That is a very good observation. I was quite nonplussed when I saw the complete turnabout by TLM.

 

[TLM08]

TLM,
I’ve been following this thread even though I haven’t posted on it very much. Part of it is because I have been under the weather. But I also don’t think you realize just how much you are revealing about yourself. This is NOT an attack on you personally, yet it must be pointed out.
Here is what you wrote (edited slightly) a mere ten months ago on this forum:

Now, with all due respect TLM, I do not want to pry into any personal issues you might have. However, almost all reverts on this forum will tell you returning to the Catholic Church was NOT easy, nor OVERNIGHT. It was a long process. For those truly committed, they have no desire to ever return. We will all tell you that the Catholic Church had to CONVINCE us to come back. And we will all say in unison, she did.
That old post from last october is rather revealing. It tells me that you have gone back and forth like a ping pong ball. There is an unsettling within you that goes beyond theolgy. I think you are looking for theological excuses to back up whatever it is you are dealing with. It wouldn’t surprise me to find out a year from now that you have left your Protestant church and become a “heathen” again.
Whatever it is you are dealing with, is not the fault of the Catholics or the Protestants.
I pray you look a little deeper and find out why you are so unsettled.

Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:

• "Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. * John 16:25

I pray that I never abandon Christ and live like a heathen ever again. Only Christ living through me can keep me from that. On my own strength I am desparately weak.
God Bless.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Yes, it is all very unsettling to see how the Word of God is twisted by (well meaning) modern apologists in order to support errors that are many hundreds of years old. John 6 simply does not support a literal interpretation of the real presence. After the Last Supper, Jesus himself said is was speaking figuratively:

• **"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. *** John 16:25

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

 

[JustaServant]

I pray that I never abandon Christ and live like a heathen ever again. Only Christ living through me can keep me from that. On my own strength I am desparately weak.
God Bless.

You go from Catholic to heathen to Protestant to Catholic to Catholic traditional (SSPX?) to Protestant…
Um…you can’t see anything wrong with that?
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, and you seem very confused. Even worse, you want to become a ‘champion’ of whatever group you are currently associated with. With a resume like that, I wouldn’t hire you.
I pray you settle whatever the real issues are.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You go from Catholic to heathen to Protestant to Catholic to Catholic traditional (SSPX?) to Protestant…
Um…you can’t see anything wrong with that?
The Holy Spirit is not the author of confusion, and you seem very confused. Even worse, you want to become a ‘champion’ of whatever group you are currently associated with. With a resume like that, I wouldn’t hire you.
I pray you settle whatever the real issues are.

{sigh} You can lead a horse to water…