My proof for God. Critiques please

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Soulewolf said:
well you have an archetype to work with. the universe. and just as you can imagine a black swan in place of a white swan, replace a universe with time, with a universe without time. ezpz.
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That is drivel. Sorry, but it is. Even if I could do that, it proves nothing.
 
wheels10 said:
What is the source of these electrochemical trigger signals?
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I’d imagine that would be the central nervous system. Certainly, it’s known that anger, fear or excitment can alter heart rate. Even meditation, breathing exercises.

Unless of course, you believe that God magically appears to stimulate your cortisol levels every time you get a fright? How do you square that up with an Addisonian Crisis?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
That is drivel. Sorry, but it is. Even if I could do that, it proves nothing.
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if i can do it you can do it lol. I could drop names that say the same thing about the universe without time if you like. Hawking and Einstein come to mind.

its really an easy conclusion to come to. here look. what does time “do”? its pretty much a sorting mechanism for one moment to the next. so if you took away time then that one moment to the next wouldn’t be separate. They would happen at the same time (lol pun). see?
 
Soulewolf said:
if i can do it you can do it lol. I could drop names that say the same thing about the universe without time if you like. Hawking and Einstein come to mind.
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Einstein did nothing of the kind. Nor, as far as I know, has Hawking.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
If you can find any theory of Hawking’s where he solved a mystery of the Universe by picturing a black swan and stopping time, I’ll be very surprised indeed.
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its in his book “the universe in a nutshell” which i have aparently lost 😦 more specifically in his chapter on the shape of time. in the mean time, watch the posted video and read the first comment (as its the most relevant to the conversation.)
 
Soulewolf said:
its in his book “the universe in a nutshell” which i have aparently lost 😦 more specifically in his chapter on the shape of time. in the mean time, watch the posted video and read the first comment (as its the most relevant to the conversation.)
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I’ve read his book, I have a copy here. His ideas on the “shape” of time are pretty Zollnerist in nature.
 
@momor

I do believe I have given you the wrong impression. Let me make a few things perfectly clear, as Richard Nixon used to say before blowing smoke . I promise I will try to be both completely honest as well as clear . At least clear and honest about my background and honest if not clear about ideas in discussion.
  1. I am not a scientist, and only took intro-level general physics and ditto astronomy as an undergraduate. I did have very good full professors for those introductory courses and both warned their students when it came to relativity theory that Time is not really a fourth physical dimension and that any reference to that sort of term in their discussion would be by way of analogy and for want of a better term. I also attended a series of lectures on directions in relativity theory for laymen and non-specialist scientists by yet a third professor who repeated the same sort of warning.
  2. I am not a mathematician at all. But I do believe I am educated enough to understand the Encyclopedia Brittanica articles about things mathematical and draw conservatively accurate implications from them.
  3. I am not a professional philosopher. Strictly amateur. But I have been an amateur since high school. I was turned on to it when the priest who taught us religion coolly fielded the question, “If God is all-powerful, why can’t he make a rock so big and heavy he can’t move it?” by coolly replying that ”You’re question doesn’t make sense. Break it down and what you are left with is ‘why can’t God be all-powerful and at the same time not be all powerful?’ Which is to ask God not to be God, but something different by definition.”
    Which means I actually do read philosophy. Ancient philosophy mainly because my actual field was Classics, as in the Greco –Roman world and that’s what I did my post-grad work in. My best friend was in the philosophy department which, like the Classics dept allowed anyone and everyone to sit in on anything unless University administrators were busy enquiring ref have you paid audit fees. Anything to troll for a potential student who might at some point actually pay to take a class. With my friend I could haunt the philosophy commons room and talk to real philosophers. Sit in on seminars and socialize.
To answer your questions about seeing the future as we can see the past, and about other realities where we currently exist in a different time The answer is simply “no.” Except in God’s reality. And His existence is the point under discussion here. Ref time from a Christian point of view, I recommend Saint Augustine, Book 11 of the Confessions is readily available. There it’s primarily about time considered in relationship to memory. Great place to start by one of the world’s greatest philosophers who also by happy chance and unlike most modern philosophers, is also a great writer in one of the great books of the western world.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I’ve read his book, I have a copy here. His ideas on the “shape” of time are pretty Zollnerist in nature.
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huh. maybe it was on the shoulders of giants or brief history of time… i’ve read a lot of books O_o. i’m pretty sure it was in one of them. something about a tree growing from a seed to a sapling to a tree, but being able to see all stages of the tree at once. anyways, did you check out the video?
 
coolduude said:
Premise 4). That something is God.
Support: What else could it be? I know the support is lacking some on this premise, but I really don’t know how to formulate support. Once objections are raised, however, I’ll show better support. I just seem to be at a loss right now. :o 😦

So, what are some objections and/or critques for this proof? I’m all ears!
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For the sake of argument i will grant you the first 3. You have nothing more than a god of the gaps argument. We don’t know what caused the universe therefore goddidit. God of the gaps is a fallacy, therefore you proof is based on a fallacy.
 
Soulewolf said:
huh. maybe it was on the shoulders of giants or brief history of time… i’ve read a lot of books O_o. i’m pretty sure it was in one of them. something about a tree growing from a seed to a sapling to a tree, but being able to see all stages of the tree at once. anyways, did you check out the video?
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Unofrtunately, no. The computer I’ve been using isn’t connected to a set of speakers right now.
 
Moonstruck888 said:
Unofrtunately, no. The computer I’ve been using isn’t connected to a set of speakers right now.
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its pretty neat if you’re into that kinda thing. if you pick up some ear buds or something you should totally check it out.
 
larkin31 said:
Specialized, noncontractile cells in the sinoatrial (SA) node, also known as the heart’s pacemaker, start an electrical impulse that travels throughout the atria to the atrioventricular (AV) node. The cells of the SA node naturally send out an electrical impulse at a rate of about 60-100 times per minute. This is why the normal heart range is 60-100 bpm. The AV node delays the impulse, so the atria finish contracting before the ventricles start contracting. The AV node sends an impulse to the atrioventricular bundle, also known as the bundle of His. The bundle of His sends impulses to Purkinje fibers in the ventricles, forming the electrical connection between the atria and ventricles.
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What triggers the cells of the SA node to naturally send out an electrical impulse at a rate of about 60-100 times per minute?
 
Moonstruck888 said:
I’d imagine that would be the central nervous system. Certainly, it’s known that anger, fear or excitment can alter heart rate. Even meditation, breathing exercises.

Unless of course, you believe that God magically appears to stimulate your cortisol levels every time you get a fright? How do you square that up with an Addisonian Crisis?
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Excellent point. It just goes to show you how closely connected we are to God. We can even get Him to change the rate of our heart beat! 😉
 
wheels10 said:
What triggers the cells of the SA node to naturally send out an electrical impulse at a rate of about 60-100 times per minute?
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Is this a rhetorical question? Do you know or not know the answer?
 
larkin31 said:
Is this a rhetorical question? Do you know or not know the answer?
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This is not a rhetorical question. I do not know the limited answer that science has provided. However, I do know that science will never be able to provide the final answer to the source of the heart beat. And that is where I conclude that this source is an external source, and this external source is God.
 
wheels10 said:
This is not a rhetorical question. I do not know the limited answer that science has provided. However, I do know that science will never be able to provide the final answer to the source of the heart beat. And that is where I conclude that this source is an external source, and this external source is God.
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Is this your belief or a teaching of the RCC, that God generates every heart beat (and some arrhythmias too, it follows)? Is the use of a man-made pacemaker then a sacrilege (act against the will of God)?
 
from here: cvphysiology.com/Arrhythmias/A004.htm
Cells within the sinoatrial (SA) node are the primary pacemaker site within the heart. These cells are characterized as having no true resting potential, but instead generate regular, spontaneous action potentials. Unlike non-pacemaker action potentials in the heart, and most other cells that elicit action potentials (e.g., nerve cells, muscle cells), the depolarizing current is carried into the cell primarily by relatively slow Ca++ currents instead of by fast Na+ currents. There are, in fact, no fast Na+ channels and currents operating in SA nodal cells. This results in a slower action potentials in terms of how rapidly they depolarize. Therefore, these pacemaker action potentials are sometimes referred to as “slow response” action potentials.
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SA nodal action potentials are divided into three phases. Phase 4 is the spontaneous depolarization (pacemaker potential) that triggers the action potential once the membrane potential reaches threshold between -40 and -30 mV). Phase 0 is the depolarization phase of the action potential. This is followed by phase 3 repolarization. Once the cell is completely repolarized at about -60 mV, the cycle is spontaneously repeated.
The changes in membrane potential during the different phases are brought about by changes in the movement of ions (principally Ca++ and K+, and to a lesser extent Na+) across the membrane through ion channels that open and close at different times during the action potential. When a channel is opened, there is increased electrical conductance (g) of specific ions through that ion channel. Closure of ion channels causes ion conductance to decrease. As ions flow through open channels, they generate electrical currents (i or I) that change the membrane potential.
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In the SA node, three ions are particularly important in generating the pacemaker action potential. The role of these ions in the different action potential phases are illustrated in the above figure and described below:
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At the end of repolarization, when the membrane potential is very negative (about -60 mV), ion channels open that conduct slow, inward (depolarizing) Na+ currents. These currents are called “funny” currents and abbreviated as “If”. These depolarizing currents cause the membrane potential to begin to spontaneously depolarize, thereby initiating Phase 4. As the membrane potential reaches about -50 mV, another type of channel opens. This channel is called transient or T-type Ca++ channel. As Ca++ enters the cell through these channels down its electrochemical gradient, the inward directed Ca++ currents further depolarize the cell. As the membrane continues to depolarize to about -40 mV, a second Ca++ channel opens. These are the so-called long-lasting, or L-type Ca++ channels. Opening of these channels causes more Ca++ to enter the cell and to further depolarize the cell until an action potential threshold is reached (usually between -40 and -30 mV). During Phase 4 there is also a slow decline in the outward movement of K+ as the K+ channels responsible for Phase 3 continue to close. This fall in K+ conductance (gK+) contributes to the depolarizing pacemaker potential.
Phase 0 depolarization is primarily caused by increased Ca++ conductance (gCa++) through the L-type Ca++ channels that began to open toward the end of Phase 4. The “funny” currents, and Ca++ currents through the T-type Ca++ channels, decline during this phase as their respective channels close. Because the movement of Ca++ through these channels into the cell is not rapid, the rate of depolarization (slope of Phase 0) is much slower than found in other cardiac cells (e.g., Purkinje cells).
Repolarization occurs (Phase 3) as K+ channels open (increased gK+) thereby increasing the outward directed, hyperpolarizing K+ currents. At the same time, the L-type Ca++ channels become inactivated and close, which decreases gCa++ and the inward depolarizing Ca++ currents.
During depolarization, the membrane potential (Em) moves toward the equilibrium potential for Ca++, which is about +134 mV. During repolarization, g’Ca++ (relative Ca++ conductance) decreases and g’K+ (relative K+ conductance) increases, which brings Em closer toward the equilibrium potential for K+, which is about -96 mV). Therefore, the action potential in SA nodal cells is primarily dependent upon changes in Ca++ and K+ conductances as summarized below:
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Em = g’K+ (-96 mV) + g’Ca++ (+134 mV)
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Although pacemaker activity is spontaneously generated by SA nodal cells, the rate of this activity can be modified significantly by external factors such as by autonomic nerves, hormones, drugs, ions, and ischemia/hypoxia.
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It is important to note that action potentials described for SA nodal cells are very similar to those found in the atrioventrcular (AV) node. Therefore, action potentials in the AV node, like the SA node, are determined primarily by changes in slow inward Ca++ and K+ currents, and do not involve fast Na+ currents. AV nodal action potentials also have intrinsic pacemaker activity produced by the same ion currents as described above for SA nodal cells.
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wheels10 said:
This is not a rhetorical question. I do not know the limited answer that science has provided. However, I do know that science will never be able to provide the final answer to the source of the heart beat. And that is where I conclude that this source is an external source, and this external source is God.
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The God of the gaps making another appearance?

Like I said, I’m not a cardiologist, but I know enough about bological science in general to know that there is a natural explanation for the human heart beat.

What about rodents, birds, fish? Does God take personal responsibility for every ventricular contraction in them too?

What about all the people who die from myocardial infarction? Where was God then?
 
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