My proof for God. Critiques please

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This is a waste of time.
You can’t >prove< there is a God any more than you can >prove< that there isn’t a God.
As a Christian… if you could somehow prove there is a God… then what is the point of faith?
 
This is a waste of time.
You can’t >prove< there is a God any more than you can >prove< that there isn’t a God.
As a Christian… if you could somehow prove there is a God… then what is the point of faith?
You require a better understanding of the Catholic Faith maybe? Either way i don’t see the philosophical relevance your theological problem.
 
As soon as you admit of the existence of change, you have to admit that the universe exists by successive additions.
Why? If creation was a one-time event, as Catholicism holds (except for our souls), then that means there is no causal chain of an already existing thing causing the existence of another. There was only one cause-effect relationship of that sort, and it was when God said, “Let there be light” (and so forth).

God created everything, then he “rested on the seventh day.” All cause-and-effects after that only change matter and energy from one form to another, but do not create any new matter or energy. Everything that makes up your body and the computer you’re sitting in front of has at no point in time not existed.

I do not understand how Catholic theology can accept the cosmological argument.
 
Why? If creation was a one-time event, as Catholicism holds (except for our souls), then that means there is no causal chain of an already existing thing causing the existence of another. There was only one cause-effect relationship of that sort, and it was when God said, “Let there be light” (and so forth).
I don’t understand what you mean here. Can you be a bit more clearer?
God created everything, then he “rested on the seventh day.” All cause-and-effects after that only change matter and energy from one form to another, but do not create any new matter or energy. Everything that makes up your body and the computer you’re sitting in front of has at no point in time not existed.
Firstly, God did not create the world in seven days. Secondly, while matter and energy merely change from one point to the next, they continue in existence potentially, and by force of metaphysical logic, energy had a beginning. Also, computers and human bodies have not always existed.
I do not understand how Catholic theology can accept the cosmological argument.
So? Does that mean that nobody else can either?
 
This is a waste of time.
You can’t >prove< there is a God any more than you can >prove< that there isn’t a God.
As a Christian… if you could somehow prove there is a God… then what is the point of faith?
Look at the evidences for God.
 
This is my response to the objection that was raised concerning premise 4.

Once the finitude of the past is accepted, one realizes that the universe had to be created by something, it is not uncaused. In premise 4, I surmised this ‘thing’ to be God. Whether or not you want to call it God, a neccesary being must exist. Here’s the proof (from Peter Kreeft):

“God would be the only necessary being—if God existed. Does he? Does a necessary being exist? Here is the proof that it does. Dependent beings cannot cause themselves. They are dependent on their causes. If there is no independent being, then the whole chain of dependent beings is dependent on nothing and could not exist. But they do exist. Therefore there is an independent being.”

Let me illustrate this concept. (A) represents the universe, (B) the earth, and (C) you.

In the chain of cause from the Big Bang to today, (C) is dependent on (B) who is dependent on (A). But if there is no independent being, what is (A), the universe, dependent on? Since the finitude of the past has been established, (A) must have been created, it’s not uncaused; it did not pop into existence. Therefore, (A) is dependent on a being who only gives existence because that being is existence itself.

Another way to put this is this way:
There are only 2 ways to exist

Contingent - receiving existence

or

Necessary - being existence itself

A contingent being cannot be the ultimate cause of the existence of something else since it has only received existence, The only explanation for the contingent beings is a necessary being. The necessary being is given the name God

The Law of Causality states that : “Anything which begins to exist must have been brought into existence by something distinct from itself.”

If we consider all created things(called creatures for example) something caused the existence of every single one of them. It could be a plant, a giraffe human being etc.

so what caused the giraffe…its parents…and what caused them…its parents, this is an infinite cycle which cannot work. Something has to have started off the whole process for it to exist. for every receiver there has to be a giver. So for the 1st receiver there has to be a first giver who never received existence because he or God is existence itself.
(I got that from a poster on this very forum who’s name escapes me :o)

Therefore, God exists.

Luke K:

I’m using temporal terms because, quite frankly, our language doesn’t have words to describe the era (a temporal word, I know) before the creation of the universe. I tried to use a time-neutral word when I used ‘point’, but I suppose even that’s not good enough. :o I hope that answers your question.
 
I don’t understand what you mean here. Can you be a bit more clearer?
I think in order for me to be more clear, you’ll have to give me your definition of “cause” and “effect.”
Firstly, God did not create the world in seven days. Secondly, while matter and energy merely change from one point to the next, they continue in existence potentially, and by force of metaphysical logic, energy had a beginning. Also, computers and human bodies have not always existed.
I’m not promoting a literal interpretation of Genesis, so sorry I made it seem that way. I just described it that way to incorporate our Catholic understanding of God’s act of creation as a one-time event. To put it bluntly, there was only one cause to the existence of everything in the universe, and that was God’s singular act of will in creating it. Therefore, there is no “causal chain” to trace from events today back to God.

What do you mean that matter and energy exist potentially?
 
Luke K:

I’m using temporal terms because, quite frankly, our language doesn’t have words to describe the era (a temporal word, I know) before the creation of the universe. I tried to use a time-neutral word when I used ‘point’, but I suppose even that’s not good enough. :o I hope that answers your question.
No, I don’t think it’s good enough. I understand what you’re trying to explain though, because it’s intuitive to think that if something had a beginning then it didn’t always exist. Believe me, I’m not trying to disagree with you because I think God is an irrational idea and faith is stupid. I just don’t accept this argument yet.

It’s very ironic that you quoted from Peter Kreeft, because I went one of his talks where he presented a bunch of arguments for the existence of God. I asked him the questions I’m asking you, and did not receive a satisfactory answer. He basically just said that creation is an eternal event from God’s point of view.
 
If God can be uncreated. Why can’t the universe be uncreated?
That is what some thought for a number of years. Evidence shows us the universe had a beginning, or do you doubt modern science?
 
That is what some thought for a number of years. Evidence shows us the universe had a beginning, or do you doubt modern science?
Why does something which has a beginning have to be created?
 
That is what some thought for a number of years. Evidence shows us the universe had a beginning, or do you doubt modern science?
I meant ’ a creator’. God doesn’t seem to need a creator, why can’t the universe have come into existence without a creator?
 
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