My proof for God. Critiques please

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Actually, greylorn is theistic.
here is his post from #287

An omniscient and omnipotent entity who created the known universe, and mankind, such as the God adopted by most popular belief systems cannot exist.

I asked him to show this was more than just his opinion and he claimed to have evidence.
 
One contemporaneous witness would be nice.
Here is a contemporaneous witness:

John 20:1 AND on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalen cometh early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre; and she saw the stone taken away from the sepulchre. 2 She ran, therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him. 3 Peter therefore went out, and that other disciple, and they came to the sepulchre. 4 And they both ran together, and that other disciple did outrun Peter, and came first to the sepulchre. 5 And when he stooped down, he saw the linen cloths lying; but yet he went not in. 6 Then cometh Simon Peter, following him, and went into the sepulchre, and saw the linen cloths lying, 7 And the napkin that had been about his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but apart, wrapped up into one place. 8 Then that other disciple also went in, who came first to the sepulchre: and he saw, and believed. 9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead. 10 The disciples therefore departed again to their home. 11 But Mary stood at the sepulchre without, weeping. Now as she was weeping, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre, 12 And she saw two angels in white, sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had been laid. 13 They say to her: Woman, why weepest thou? She saith to them: Because they have taken away my Lord; and I know not where they have laid him. 14 When she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing; and she knew not that it was Jesus. 15 Jesus saith to her: Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, thinking it was the gardener, saith to him: Sir, if thou hast taken him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 16 Jesus saith to her: Mary. She turning, saith to him: Rabboni (which is to say, Master). 17 Jesus saith to her: Do not touch me, for I am not yet ascended to my Father. But go to my brethren, and say to them: I ascend to my Father and to your Father, to my God and your God. 18 Mary Magdalen cometh, and telleth the disciples: I have seen the Lord, and these things he said to me. 19 Now when it was late that same day, the first of the week, and the doors were shut, where the disciples were gathered together, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace be to you. 20 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you. 22 When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost. 23 Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. 24 Now Thomas, one of the twelve, who is called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace be to you. 27 Then he saith to Thomas: Put in thy finger hither, and see my hands; and bring hither thy hand, and put it into my side; and be not faithless, but believing. 28 Thomas answered, and said to him: My Lord, and my God. 29 Jesus saith to him: Because thou hast seen me, Thomas, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and have believed.
30 Many other signs also did Jesus in the sight of his disciples, which are not written in this book. 31 But these are written, that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God: and that believing, you may have life in his name.
 
One contemporaneous witness would be nice.
Here is another contemporaneous witness:

Matthew 28:1 AND in the end of the sabbath, when it began to dawn towards the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalen and the other Mary, to see the sepulchre. 2 And behold there was a great earthquake. For an angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and coming, rolled back the stone, and sat upon it. 3 And his countenance was as lightning, and his raiment as snow. 4 And for fear of him, the guards were struck with terror, and became as dead men. 5 And the angel answering, said to the women: Fear not you; for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here, for he is risen, as he said. Come, and see the place where the Lord was laid. 7 And going quickly, tell ye his disciples that he is risen: and behold he will go before you into Galilee; there you shall see him. Lo, I have foretold it to you. 8 And they went out quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy, running to tell his disciples. 9 And behold Jesus met them, saying: All hail. But they came up and took hold of his feet, and adored him. 10 Then Jesus said to them: Fear not. Go, tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, there they shall see me. 11 Who when they were departed, behold some of the guards came into the city, and told the chief priests all things that had been done. 12 And they being assembled together with the ancients, taking counsel, gave a great sum of money to the soldiers, 13 Saying: Say you, His disciples came by night, and stole him away when we were asleep. 14 And if the governor shall hear this, we will persuade him, and secure you. 15 So they taking the money, did as they were taught: and this word was spread abroad among the Jews even unto this day. 16 And the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them. 17 And seeing them they adored: but some doubted. 18 And Jesus coming, spoke to them, saying: All power is given to me in heaven and in earth. 19 Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
 
One contemporaneous witness would be nice.
Here is another contemporaneous witness:

Mark 16:1 AND when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalen, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought sweet spices, that coming, they might anoint Jesus. 2 And very early in the morning, the first day of the week, they come to the sepulchre, the sun being now risen. 3 And they said one to another: Who shall roll us back the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And looking, they saw the stone rolled back. For it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed with a white robe: and they were astonished. 6 Who saith to them: Be not affrighted; you seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified: he is risen, he is not here, behold the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee; there you shall see him, as he told you. 8 But they going out, fled from the sepulchre. For a trembling and fear had seized them: and they said nothing to any man; for they were afraid. 9 But he rising early the first day of the week, appeared first to Mary Magdalen, out of whom he had cast seven devils. 10 She went and told them that had been with him, who were mourning and weeping. 11 And they hearing that he was alive, and had been seen by her, did not believe. 12 And after that he appeared in another shape to two of them walking, as they were going into the country. 13 And they going told it to the rest: neither did they believe them. 14 At length he appeared to the eleven as they were at table: and he upbraided them with their incredulity and hardness of heart, because they did not believe them who had seen him after he was risen again. 15 And he said to them: Go ye into the whole world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized, shall be saved: but he that believeth not shall be condemned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe: In my name they shall cast out devils: they shall speak with new tongues. 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they shall drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them: they shall lay their hands upon the sick, and they shall recover. 19 And the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was taken up into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God. 20 But they going forth preached every where: the Lord working withal, and confirming the word with signs that followed.
 
One contemporaneous witness would be nice.
Here is another contemporaneous witness:

Luke 24:1 AND on the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared. 2 And they found the stone rolled back from the sepulchre. 3 And going in, they found not the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 And it came to pass, as they were astonished in their mind at this, behold, two men stood by them, in shining apparel. 5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their countenance towards the ground, they said unto them: Why seek you the living with the dead? 6 He is not here, but is risen. Remember how he spoke unto you, when he was in Galilee, 7 Saying: The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again. 8 And they remembered his words. 9 And going back from the sepulchre, they told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest. 10 And it was Mary Magdalen, and Joanna, and Mary of James, and the other women that were with them, who told these things to the apostles. 11 And these words seemed to them as idle tales; and they did not believe them. 12 But Peter rising up, ran to the sepulchre, and stooping down, he saw the linen cloths laid by themselves; and went away wondering in himself at that which was come to pass. 13 And behold, two of them went, the same day, to a town which was sixty furlongs from Jerusalem, named Emmaus. 14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15 And it came to pass, that while they talked and reasoned with themselves, Jesus himself also drawing near, went with them. 16 But their eyes were held, that they should not know him. 17 And he said to them: What are these discourses that you hold one with another as you walk, and are sad? 18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleophas, answering, said to him: Art thou only a stranger to Jerusalem, and hast not known the things that have been done there in these days? 19 To whom he said: What things? And they said: Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, who was a prophet, mighty in work and word before God and all the people; 20 And how our chief priests and princes delivered him to be condemned to death, and crucified him. 21 But we hoped, that it was he that should have redeemed Israel: and now besides all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 22 Yea and certain women also of our company affrighted us, who before it was light, were at the sepulchre, 23 And not finding his body, came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, who say that he is alive. 24 And some of our people went to the sepulchre, and found it so as the women had said, but him they found not. 25 Then he said to them: O foolish, and slow of heart to believe in all things which the prophets have spoken. 26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and so to enter into his glory? 27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded to them in all the scriptures, the things that were concerning him. 28 And they drew night to the town, whither they were going: and he made as though he would go farther. 29 But they constrained him; saying: Stay with us, because it is towards evening, and the day is now far spent. And he went in with them. 30 And it came to pass, whilst he was at table with them, he took bread, and blessed, and brake, and gave to them. 31 And their eyes were opened, and they knew him: and he vanished out of their sight. 32 And they said one to the other: Was not our heart burning within us, whilst he spoke in this way, and opened to us the scriptures? 33 And rising up, the same hour, they went back to Jerusalem: and they found the eleven gathered together, and those that were staying with them, 34 Saying: The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35 And they told what things were done in the way; and how they knew him in the breaking of the bread. 36 Now whilst they were speaking these things, Jesus stood in the midst of them, and saith to them: Peace be to you; it is I, fear not. 37 But they being troubled and frightened, supposed that they saw a spirit. 38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle, and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have. 40 And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and feet. 41 But while they yet believed not, and wondered for joy, he said: Have you any thing to eat? 42 And they offered him a piece of a broiled fish, and a honeycomb. 43 And when he had eaten before them, taking the remains, he gave to them. 44 And he said to them: These are the words which I spoke to you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then he opened their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures. 46 And he said to them: Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise again from the dead, the third day: 47 And that penance and remission of sins should be preached in his name, unto all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 And you are witnesses of these things. 49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you: but stay you in the city till you be endued with power from on high. 50 And he led them out as far as Bethania: and lifting up his hands, he blessed them. 51 And it came to pass, whilst he blessed them, he departed from them, and was carried up to heaven. 52 And they adoring went back into Jerusalem with great joy. 53 And they were always in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.
 
here is his post from #287

An omniscient and omnipotent entity who created the known universe, and mankind, such as the God adopted by most popular belief systems cannot exist.

I asked him to show this was more than just his opinion and he claimed to have evidence.
He’s denying the existence of OUR God, not A God.

I don’t know why he has his opinions, but from reading his posts he is indeed theistic.
 
One contemporaneous witness would be nice.
Over 2 Billion Christians in the world today have heard the word of God and believe it to be True. We are the current witnesses to the Truth.

John 10:22 And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple, in Solomon’s porch. 24 The Jews therefore came round about him, and said to him: How long dost thou hold our souls in suspense? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them: I speak to you, and you believe not: the works that I do in the name of my Father, they give testimony of me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of my sheep. 27** My sheep hear my voice: and I know them, and they follow me. **28 And I give them life everlasting; and they shall not perish for ever, and no man shall pluck them out of my hand. 29 That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all: and no one can snatch them out of the hand of my Father. 30 I and the Father are one.

God has given you free will. It is your choice to hear the voice of the good sheppard. God will not force Himself upon you. If your final decision is to reject God, you should know that you will be dearly missed by God and all of Heaven.
 
Over 2 Billion Christians in the world today have heard the word of God and believe it to be True. We are the current witnesses to the Truth.
Over two billion Christians believe the word of God to be true? That hardly makes them a reliable witness. Imagine how that would go in a court.

Yes your honour, although nobody actually witnessed the murder, we have a number of people willing to testify that they believe it was the defendant.
 
The gospels are thought to have been written well after Jesus’ death and based on the still missing Q document.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Q_source
The Q source goes unmentioned in early writings, and has no influence whatsoever on the Gospels of John and Mark. There is no direct evidence for this source, and any indirect speculation comes from literal similarities in Matthew and Luke - which does not sensibly extrapolate into a nessecity for an external source.

No one would seriously contend that the Q source is the source of all the four Gospels, and many reject that it is even related to Matthew and Luke.
 
Over two billion Christians believe the word of God to be true? That hardly makes them a reliable witness. Imagine how that would go in a court.

Yes your honour, although nobody actually witnessed the murder, we have a number of people willing to testify that they believe it was the defendant.
Don’t forget that it is possible (in the US anyway) to convict someone of murder based entirely on circumstantial evidence and occasionally even without a body. All it takes is looking at the facts and relying on the reason and logic of the jury to evaluate those facts. Combining evidence and philosophy so to speak.

Wait…isn’t that similar to how believers come to the conclusion God exists? Why, yes Watson, it is
 
He’s denying the existence of OUR God, not A God.

I don’t know why he has his opinions, but from reading his posts he is indeed theistic.
I realize that. I’m just trying to keep him honest to his claims. After all, he isn’t one to shrink from doing that to others. I would think he’d want the same courtesy.
 
The inability to understand a fact does not imply that it is not a fact. We cannot understand how the universe exists but it exists nevertheless. Self-motivation is in the same category.
I certainly understand that self-motivation cannot occur **without **the self. I would not pretend to know how self-motivation occurs any more than I would pretend to know how the universe exists. In both cases we are confronted with ultimate aspects of reality.
In that case the onus is on you to demonstrate how and why they utilise a form of energy known to science…
It’s all here. The mechanism used by the cells of living organisms, including those in the human brain to release energy is known as the Cytochrome Chain or Electron Transport Chain. Happy reading.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_transport_chain

Do you really believe consciousness, intuition, reasoning, evaluation, freedom of choice and decision-making are entirely explained by electrico-chemical activity? That would really confirm you’re a purposeless robot** without **the power of self-motivation!
So what you’re saying is that if i can’t explain how freedom of choice utilizes physical energy, that means the supernatural exists?
I am saying that freedom of choice cannot exist if all personal activity can be explained solely by impersonal processes. Again the onus is on you to explain how it is possible to choose when all choices are predetermined…
I’ve never said everything is composed of matter.
You said you are inside your cranium - which implies you have a physical location. If everything is not composed of matter** what else** do you think exists?
You have failed to explain the nature of the self and to demonstrate that it is tangible…
I can’t explain it. That does not mean that the only two options are my knowledge or the supernatural.

What are the other options?
Can you produce an example of a physical reaction which takes the future into account?
Yes. Thought.

How do you know thinking is a** physical **reaction?
Can you explain how you can jump (mentally) from the present and take the future into account?
Can I explain it? No, I can’t.
Then you’re not justified in assuming foresight is a physical reaction
 
The Q source goes unmentioned in early writings, and has no influence whatsoever on the Gospels of John and Mark. There is no direct evidence for this source, and any indirect speculation comes from literal similarities in Matthew and Luke - which does not sensibly extrapolate into a nessecity for an external source.

No one would seriously contend that the Q source is the source of all the four Gospels, and many reject that it is even related to Matthew and Luke.
Well, you can imagine how much credence I would give the Q source, even supposing it was turned up 100% intact.
 
Don’t forget that it is possible (in the US anyway) to convict someone of murder based entirely on circumstantial evidence and occasionally even without a body. All it takes is looking at the facts and relying on the reason and logic of the jury to evaluate those facts. Combining evidence and philosophy so to speak.

Wait…isn’t that similar to how believers come to the conclusion God exists? Why, yes Watson, it is
In the UK, you could never use philosophy to convict someone of murder, and quite honestly if I lived in the USA, that is something I would be wearing as a badge of shame.
 
I certainly understand that self-motivation cannot occur **without **the self. I would not pretend to know how self-motivation occurs any more than I would pretend to know how the universe exists. In both cases we are confronted with ultimate aspects of reality.
Those are strong words Tony, but they really don’t explain how you arrived at this assertion.
Do you really believe consciousness, intuition, reasoning, evaluation, freedom of choice and decision-making are entirely explained by electrico-chemical activity?
Earnestly.
That would really confirm you’re a purposeless robot** without **the power of self-motivation!
And this would be a load of sentimental drivel. It doesn’t matter whether I would like to believe that the Universe was specifically designed for human beings and that we are the be all and end all of biological life. I perfer to portion my belief to the evidence and not to the folly of human conceit.
I am saying that freedom of choice cannot exist if all personal activity can be explained solely by impersonal processes. Again the onus is on you to explain how it is possible to choose when all choices are predetermined…
Well, for one thing I am not at all convinced that human beings have free will and for another thing you have not demonstrated that from anything I’ve said it follows that all choices are predetermined.

Until someone can demonstrate that, I shall keep an open mind.
You said you are inside your cranium - which implies you have a physical location. If everything is not composed of matter** what else** do you think exists?
I don’t know, but I’m sure you’re about to tell me, and I’m sure it will be based on the most latitudinarian of wild surmise.
What are the other options?
Emergence. It is a natural phenomenon, but it is more than the sum of its physical parts.
How do you know thinking is a** physical **reaction?
I know that thought occurs in the natural world. In fact, according to Descartes, the only thing we can be sure of is that thought is occuring, is that not true?
Then you’re not justified in assuming foresight is a physical reaction
Foresight involves making educated guesses based on experience. In nature, including in human affairs, the same patterns tend to repeat. This makes the future to some degree predictable. We know in December it will most likely be cold because December tends to be a cold month. I know that tomorrow morning at seven o’clock it is very likely that I’ll be in building 37 at Spirit Areosystems because that is where I work.

As far as the physics behind the emergence of thought goes, then I can’t explain that. However, because it relies on physical apparatus, to wit: the brain, to occur, I think it probable that there is a physical explanation. I would not however make a definitive claim to knowledge on how thought occurs.
 
Over two billion Christians believe the word of God to be true? That hardly makes them a reliable witness. Imagine how that would go in a court.

Yes your honour, although nobody actually witnessed the murder, we have a number of people willing to testify that they believe it was the defendant.
I provided you with the actual witnesses. The words of the Bible are the testimony of this Truth. A current jury of 2 Billion believe the witnesses and they themselves have now become witnesses of the Truth. If you are seeking the Truth, the voice of the good sheppard in the Bible is one of the places that you will find it.
 
I provided you with the actual witnesses. The words of the Bible are the testimony of this Truth. A current jury of 2 Billion believe the witnesses and they themselves have now become witnesses of the Truth. If you are seeking the Truth, the voice of the good sheppard in the Bible is one of the places that you will find it.
Witnesses require verifiable factual knowledge, not second hand, third or fourth hand beliefs…
 
We all get to choose which voice we will listen to and believe. I choose to listen to the voice of the good sheppard. Who do you choose to listen to?
Unfortunately, that choice is a luxury that I do not have.
 
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