My Protestant friend says this...

[Homerun40968]

1. The Catholic Church is rich. It should be giving the money to charities, not living comfortably in the Vatican.

I told him that I could care less how rich the Catholic Church is. Even if it was corrupt at one time, I don’t care, because theologically, it is more correct than Protestantism.

1. The Catholic Church has a quota on the amount of good deeds one performs, and if it is not met, then he/she is told that they are going to hell

I simply called this false, but he did not believe me. I have never heard of this doctrine. I also showed him James 2:14 for clarification on Faith vs. Works.

1. The Catholic Church used to be the true faith, but it lost its validity in the middle ages when priests would sell indulgences.

Again, I would stay in the Catholic Church even if it was ten times MORE corrupt. Martin Luther/John Calvin were noble in their efforts to clean up the corruption, but were heretics in that they changed too much theology. Emphasis was taken off of important sacraments like the Eucharist and was placed on false doctrines such as Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone.

Any suggestions?

 

[LDNCatholic]

The Church is not that rich considering how many members it has, and I believe the Vatican’s wealth lies in its artwork and buildings, things which belong to the whole Church and cannot be sold, not in money.

 

[ibkc]

Your friend is completely mixed up about history, and is repeating things that other people told him. He obviously doesn’t understand what indulgences are and how they work, either.

About the charity thing, you can inform him that the Catholic Church is one of the largest charitable organizations on the planet if not THE largest.

About the “quota on good works” thing (and that’s one I’ve never heard before), give him a link to the Catechism online and ask him to show you where that appears.

 

[monorail]

As far as the Church’s wealth, someone Asked An Apologist and I think it’s a good answer: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=51486

 

[rpp]

As for your friends first point:

The Catholic Church is the largest charitable institution in the world. The Catholic Church’s humanitarian charities, such as Catholic Relief Services, helps more people than any other non-governmental organization (NGO). They also provide aid to more people than the various United Nations organizations.

For his second point:

If his assertion is correct, the Church has done a very poor job of explaining that as information on such a quota is unavailable.

For his third point:

Okay. We’ll stipulate that the sale of indulgences was a bad thing. But buying an indulgence was only one method of gaining one. Recall that an indulgence is the lessening of time one spends in Purgatory. So if the Catholic Church were the true Church until it started selling indulgences, that means it was, and still is, correct on the teaching of Purgatory.

 

[LutheranDK]

Again, I would stay in the Catholic Church even if it was ten times MORE corrupt. Martin Luther/John Calvin were noble in their efforts to clean up the corruption, but were heretics in that they changed too much theology. Emphasis was taken off of important sacraments like the Eucharist and was placed on false doctrines such as Sola Scriptura and Faith Alone.
Any suggestions?

A correction: Or rather, a request:
Please tell me where Luther takes emphasis away from Holy Communion?

It irritates me endlessly to see romanists put Luther and Calvin in the same box, just because they’re both reformers. On many issues, they are diametrically opposite eachother!

 

[Lampo]

Contrary to popular impression, the Vatican is a spartan operation. Its annual operating budget is about $277 million. The University of Notre Dame’s annual operating budget, by comparison, is $700 million. The Vatican’s endowment is about $770 million. By contrast, the University of Notre Dame’s endowment is $3.1 billion. The Holy See is indeed in need of financial support from the Catholic world, and American Catholics usually supply about 25 percent of the annual operating budget.

What about the artwork—the Pietà, the Raphael frescoes, and so on? These treasures are literally priceless, but they appear on the Vatican books with a value of one euro. According to the [laws] of the Vatican City State, they may never be sold or borrowed against.

The “wealth” of the Vatican has accumulated over the centuries and is basically art work, historical documents, and buildings. The Vatican views these buildings, historical documents, and works of art as belonging to all peoples - they are merely under the care of the Vatican. They are not for sell because the Vatican doesn’t view them as its personal property too sell. Why not sell all the works of art in the Louvre? Or in New York’s Metropolitan Museum of Art? Why not sell the Mona Lisa to feed the poor? Why don’t museums sell off their Rembrandts and Van Goghs and Picassos to feed the poor?

About 20 years ago, Peter Drucker, the management consultant, concluded that the three most efficient organizations in history were General Motors, the 19th-century Prussian Army, and the Catholic Church. He put the Church on his list because it manages to hold a worldwide organization together with an exceptionally small central headquarters. For the 1.1 billion Catholics, there are about 1,700 people working in the [Vatican]. As Drucker pointed out, if the same ratio were applied to our government in Washington, D.C., there would be 500 federal employees working in the capital, as opposed to roughly 500,000.

 

[Lampo]

A correction: Or rather, a request:
Please tell me where Luther takes emphasis away from Holy Communion?

By not having the humility to submit to the authority of the Catholic Church and by getting caught up with his ego. Thus, he took away from Holy Communion. By concocting his own doctrines he took away the emphasis of the Eucharist. He took away the emphasis by breaking his ties with the Church and relinquishing his valid Holy Orders. By not accepting all of what the Church teaches, he rejected all of what the Church teaches including the emphasis on the Eucharist - the source and summit of the Catholic Church.

It irritates me endlessly to see romanists put Luther and Calvin in the same box, just because they’re both reformers. On many issues, they are diametrically opposite eachother!

That could be. Is “romanist” suppose to be a derogatory remark?

 

[rpp]

A correction: Or rather, a request:
Please tell me where Luther takes emphasis away from Holy Communion?

It irritates me endlessly to see romanists put Luther and Calvin in the same box, just because they’re both reformers. On many issues, they are diametrically opposite eachother!

Luther stated that Holy Eucharist is not the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. He also decreased the importance of the Sacraments in general and changed the focus to individual Bible interpretation. That these resulted in a decreased emphasis on what Holy Communion really is was inevitable.

For the Catholic, Holy Communion is the Source and Summit of our faith; there is nothing else in the world that can compare with that. Nothing.

 

[JRKH]

Some Quick comments,

1. The Catholic Church is rich. It should be giving the money to charities, not living comfortably in the Vatican.

The Church is in a sense, a “Non-Profit” organization. As such it has incomes and expenses as well as a “net worth” just as any other global organization. This does not make the Church “Rich” in the economic sense. Much of what your friend prbably thinks of is the great works of art, liturature and apparent oppulence of the Vatican. However, much of this is held, “in Trust” for future generations.
As to the Vatican “giving to Charities” - It Does. Che Church is, not only a huge contributor to Charity, it is a Huge OPERATOR of Charities.

1. The Catholic Church has a quota on the amount of good deeds one performs, and if it is not met, then he/she is told that they are going to hell

These accusations are not worth arguing to much about. Simply ask him to supply you with an authoritative source for this accusation.
The Catholic Church Catechism is available on-line here with a search utility. A quick search of “Quota” and “Good Deeds” found exacly ZERO results. Share this link with your friend and ask him to find the actual Church teaching.

1. The Catholic Church used to be the true faith, but it lost its validity in the middle ages when priests would sell indulgences.

This is the easiest one to counter:
Point-1 Christ promised that He would never Abandon His Church. Therefore, if the Catholic Church “used to be the true faith” then it still is. Regardless of the Corruption of some people in the Church.

Point-2 The Church did not lose it’s validity, rather certain men lost their faith in the validity of The Church. This is a huge distinction.
The Church, Her teachings and doctrines have remained intact and pure. Certain “impure” practices needed to be purged and were. Nowever, those who rejected the Church and went off on their own have reaped the whirlwind of thousands of conflict doctines.

Peace
James

 

[BlestOne]

hahaha… if I had a nickel for every time I heard these!!!

		 				1. The Catholic Church is rich. It should be giving the money to charities, not living comfortably in the Vatican.

hmmm… do you know how much money the Catholic Church gives to charities each year??? Far more than ANY orgainization in the world… this little lie is about the vatican and the artwork. The Church simply does not feel that selling gifts from the faithful is right and instead preserves the artwork for others to be spiritually uplifted. Every year they have to insure the artwork … for $1… thats right, they can’t appraise it because it would be attaching a price to someones spirituality.

1. The Catholic Church has a quota on the amount of good deeds one performs, and if it is not met, then he/she is told that they are going to hell

This is one of my favorites… ya know why? Because this is coming from folks that want a checklist on what they need to do to get into heaven…
1. say sinners prayer…check
2. Tithe…check
3. Witness (tell everybody you are saved)… check…
ok… whew that is done… now I don’t have to do anything else!

1. The Catholic Church used to be the true faith, but it lost its validity in the middle ages when priests would sell indulgences.

Ahhh yes… what a couple of priests did wrong in Germany to raise money over 500 yrs ago null and voids the TRUTH and her validity… yeah… and individuals in their churches are perfect???

 

[dandn5000]

Luther stated that Holy Eucharist is not the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. He also decreased the importance of the Sacraments in general and changed the focus to individual Bible interpretation. That these resulted in a decreased emphasis on what Holy Communion really is was inevitable.

For the Catholic, Holy Communion is the Source and Summit of our faith; there is nothing else in the world that can compare with that. Nothing.

Since when? Last time I checked, and according to every single Lutheran I’ve ever met(quite a lot), the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. No exceptions, no exclusions.

 

[rpp]

Since when? Last time I checked, and according to every single Lutheran I’ve ever met(quite a lot), the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ. No exceptions, no exclusions.

Whoops! I made a mistake (yes, I do admit when I make mistakes.) Belief in the Real Presence is one of the issues that separated Luther,who DID believe in the Real Presence, and Zwingli who did not.

My humble apologies for the error.

I do believe, however, that the Lutheran Church no longer believes in the Real Presence in the same way Catholic do, but that change came after Luther’s time, I think. Then again, I might continue to be wrong.

 

[dandn5000]

Whoops! I made a mistake (yes, I do admit when I make mistakes.) Belief in the Real Presence is one of the issues that separated Luther,who DID believe in the Real Presence, and Zwingli who did not.

My humble apologies for the error.

I do believe, however, that the Lutheran Church no longer believes in the Real Presence in the same way Catholic do, but that change came after Luther’s time, I think. Then again, I might continue to be wrong.

Apology accepted.

It is possible that their particular theology on the nature of the Real Presence may be different - I only know that they believe that it is the Body and Blood of Christ. Would any Lutherans around care to clarify this?

 

[HashemEchad]

The Church is not that rich considering how many members it has, and I believe the Vatican’s wealth lies in its artwork and buildings, things which belong to the whole Church and cannot be sold, not in money.

Because of the priest pedophile scandals, the church is not as rich as it used to be. Some dioceses in the USA are going bankrupt, paying out reparations to victims of sexual abuse.

 

[rpp]

Because of the priest pedophile scandals, the church is not as rich as it used to be. Some dioceses in the USA are going bankrupt, paying out reparations to victims of sexual abuse.

Our collective shame.

 

[JonNC]

Luther stated that Holy Eucharist is not the actual Body and Blood of Jesus. He also decreased the importance of the Sacraments in general and changed the focus to individual Bible interpretation. That these resulted in a decreased emphasis on what Holy Communion really is was inevitable.

For the Catholic, Holy Communion is the Source and Summit of our faith; there is nothing else in the world that can compare with that. Nothing.

Hi rpp,
I disagree with the first paragraph, and agree with the second.

Augsburg Confession
Article X: Of the Lord’s Supper.
1] Of the Supper of the Lord they teach that the Body and Blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed 2] to those who eat the Supper of the Lord; and they reject those that teach otherwise.

Smalcald Articles
VI. Of the Sacrament of the Altar.
1] Of the Sacrament of the Altar we hold that bread and wine in the Supper are the true body and blood of Christ, and are given and received not only by the godly, but also by wicked Christians.

Small Catechism
What is the Sacrament of the Altar?
It is the true body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, under the bread and wine, for us Christians to eat and to drink, instituted by Christ Himself.

There is much more.

Luther never, ever denied the real presence. In fact, he saved his harshest polemics for those that did.

For Homerun,

1. The Catholic Church is rich. It should be giving the money to charities, not living comfortably in the Vatican.

Your friend is wrong. The Catholic Church does great things in charity. Their good works in Christ’s name are beyond question.

1. The Catholic Church has a quota on the amount of good deeds one performs, and if it is not met, then he/she is told that they are going to hell

Your friend is wrong here, as well. As a noncatholic, I would tell your friend to read more about the Catholic faith before commenting.

1. The Catholic Church used to be the true faith, but it lost its validity in the middle ages when priests would sell indulgences.

It sure is time to get past the arguments of 500 years ago, and work toward reconciliation and unity, as Christ would want. These kinds of claims do harm, not good.

Jon

 

[rpp]

Hi rpp,
I disagree with the first paragraph, and agree with the second.

There is much more.

Luther never, ever denied the real presence. In fact, he saved his harshest polemics for those that did.

Yep. I guess you did not see my follow up post.

Whoops! I made a mistake (yes, I do admit when I make mistakes.) Belief in the Real Presence is one of the issues that separated Luther,who DID believe in the Real Presence, and Zwingli who did not.

My humble apologies for the error.

I do believe, however, that the Lutheran Church no longer believes in the Real Presence in the same way Catholic do, but that change came after Luther’s time, I think. Then again, I might continue to be wrong.

 

[LDNCatholic]

It irritates me endlessly to see romanists put Luther and Calvin in the same box, just because they’re both reformers. On many issues, they are diametrically opposite eachother!

Both equally wrong though, and don’t use the word Romanist, it insults your own intelligence.

 

[JonNC]

Our collective shame.

rpp,
It is not your collective shame, unless you are talking in general terms, all sinful human beings, me included. It may be the shame of individual priests who did these things, and bishops you may have covered them up. But I don’t believe in guilt by association. The millions of good Catholics in this country do not bare the shame of these acts.

Jon