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Hellisreal
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Hello Jeff, and thank you for the links.
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yessisan
Guest
I guess BibleSteve has nothing to say to Jeff’s sites… 
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mkarzon
Guest
I don’t remember the details but, several years ago I once pressed a JW about something I showed her in an old WTS booklet. She finally accused me of altering some of the booklet, which I’m honest enough to not do, nor do I have the skill. I’m pretty decent with a word processor, but I’m no Dan Rather.
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Hellisreal
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She thought you would go through that kind of effort and energy and possibly hire a proffesional forger that would cost likely hundreds of dollars to alter their literature?
They really are something else.
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BibleSteve
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Yessian,I guess BibleSteve has nothing to say to Jeff’s sites…
I’ve have known about that site for years and read through it and looked at all the source material to check it’s truthfulness. I’m curious about what level of homework you have put into checking it’s truthfulness? Have you checked any of the quotes? Checked them against anything else the WT has said on the topic? Most likely not.
I have found the claims to be in line with the one’s brought up by you and easily answered.
You charged:
- Governing Body members were photographed giving blood at a blood drive. - which later proved false. Anything to say in retraction?
- The Watchtower submits their articles to the Catholic Church for approval, since they don’t want to be sued!
- We claim to be “inspired” - and I showed this to be true. Even after I showed you photocopies of WT articles from 1880 through today, you said “Oh, I guess they didn’t say they are inspired, that that’s what I heard them say at the Kingdom Hall, they said there inspired!”. You’ve seen the exact quotes for yourself, and still you insist on believing what has been proved false.
For anyone who shows an actual interest, a listening ear, and a willingness to reason, I’d be glad to.
They can always drop me a note by PM.
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BibleSteve
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And, when someone charged that the WTS lied about Franz’ educational records in their publications, I clearly and systematically showed the claim was false.
And no one commented, or retracted the false charge… Not a peep…
Steve
And no one commented, or retracted the false charge… Not a peep…
Steve
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Yerusalyim
Guest
That’s a funny line.
As we sit and discuss this issue (and good web cite there Jeff) another issue comes to mind…The JW claim is that the “light is getting brighter” in regards to God’s revelation to the governing body…that’s how new doctrine is explained by the JW’s…so…my question is this…why is the light flickering…the Society has changed back and forth as to whether a woman who is raped but does not call out for help is to be disfellowshipped or not (that’s excommunicated JW style…and a lot more harse emotionally).
So, if the light is getting brighter JW friends…why is the light on this issue flickering…do I need to provide quotes?
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Hellisreal
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Bible Steve, I have not made any false statements.
Clear it up for me then.
Clear it up for me then.
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Hellisreal
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I did not see that thread, and that thread has nothing to do with this one, unless I missed it forgive me, stick to this thread please. Stop bait and switch tactics.
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yessisan
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Excuse me? I charged? I even said I had made a mistake about the first one. The second one, do you want Daisy’s phone number so she can tell you what she told me??
oh, and make sure I’m on the line so she won’t lie to you. That Pioneer did lie to me, and you know it was a lie. I know for a fact how anti-Catholic the WT is, so why on Earth would the WT submit their info to the Vatican?? Remember that I said I didn’t believe that to be true?The third one, I already told you that whatever I heard is what I heard. I told you the elders claimed the WT was inspired by God. It can’t get clearer than “inspirados por Dios”. Get your dictionary, that can probably show you what “inspirado” means. I am no fool to not understand those words. I can undertand them in English, Spanish and French.
Just because someone actually is against your beliefs and has no physical proof of some things, it means to you that we are lying. For God’s sake, and you call yourself college educated?
The sites that Jeff has posted do, in fact, have quotes from the WT library, they coincide. I have the 2005 and 2006 versions at home. I checked them earlier this morning!
Gosh, I don’t even know why I waste my time with someone as stubborn as you. You don’t listen to anyone who can actually show you some truth. And because you don’t want to listen, you post the same things over and over again.
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yessisan
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Oh, and another thing BibleSteve, you can come here and tell people I’ve made false claims… why don’t you post the emails I sent to you so people can see what I actually said? Oh, wait! Could it be that you don’t want to because you didn’t answer the last emails because you couldn’t find how to disprove what I heard?
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mkarzon
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YES!!! That’s part of a my point. A JW will defend the WT organization at ANY and ALL costs.
They’re also been taught by the organization, without realizing it, to be very insincere. I’ve had several JW’s tell me they’d leave the JW’s and join another church if I could show them that they were wrong and another church was right. I respond by asking if they really believe that the WTS is God’s organization. If they respond “no”, I ask them if they’d be willing to admit that to an elder in their congregation. If they respond “yes”, I ask them why would they say they’d leave God’s organization. They are doing nothing but baiting, because they believe they know the bible well enough to prove they’re right and I’m wrong. If they respond to my question and don’t do the “WT dance”, they leave somewhat embarrassed, but I’m hoping they’ll realize where the embarrassment is coming from. And some have answered the question “yes”, and I’ve had one answer the question “no”, and I’ve seen the “WT dance”.
The “WT dance” is when a JW becomes uneasy when confronted with an argument or scipture they can’t answer. They ususally respond by: changing the subject, attempting to evade the question, or, like one personal case with me in a Kinddom Hall a little over ten years ago, name calling (a woman JW said to me, “You’re from the devil” then turned and walked away).
This is a conversation stopper, but it must be said, and I hope all Catholics take it to heart. The only reason the Bible is the inspired Word of God is because the Catechism of the Catholic Church declares it so. It doesn’t exist in a vacuum. It didn’t just fall out of the sky. I’ve never heard an argument from a JW, or even on their website, that can demonstrate the Bible is the (name removed by moderator)ired Word of God without evantually resorting to superstition or pure blind-faith. The book that says “Holy Scripture” or “Holy Bible” on the cover is NOT the insipred Word of God when it is sitting on the podium of the Kingdom Hall. I realize we have some commonality with our separated Protestant bretheren, but the JW’s aren’t in that category.
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Hellisreal
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yessisan
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True!
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mkarzon
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Hi Steve,
Not sure how many, if any, Catholics on these forums agree with me but, a big part of the problem is, I believe WTS publications are completely untrustworthy and unreliable. And I place the blame squarely on the writers of the publications (not you personally). When something is in the Watchtower, I automatically believe it’s not true. I believe what apostate JW’s say, over what JW’s say. A decade ago, I approached WT teachings with an open mind. I love scripture and read the entire Bible twice a year. I asked myself, “could this be God’s organization”. I started by studying the history of the organization and my answer is no, it’s not God’s organization. I dediced this even before I learned WTS teaches Jesus is Michael the Archangel. My apologies, but it’s the really WTS’s fault.
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Hellisreal
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Bible Steve may be too busy now to address the points left unanswered on the thread, and I for one will not be using a PM to find out what the answers to these questions are. I think everyone here at CAF is intitled to see what the JW defense is openly without having to go via PM.
I also wonder about all the secretism I have been learning about with the JW mindset. How one must go to a “higher” level(s) before getting certain books as Rayvn pointed out. its important since the inconsistancies we see here are in literature that is “open” to all. What about inconsistancies with Elder’s manuals over the years? Or Kingdom Ministry books over the years? Or the old Aid to bible understanding books over their short life span? (I think you get the point)
Is the light is getting brighter:idea: the only explaination for why these inconsistancies occur?
I do hope I can continue to dialoge with charity and be welcoming to Bible Steve so he feels he can freely discuss this with us.
I feel like I am learning quite a bit from the dialoge here.
I also wonder about all the secretism I have been learning about with the JW mindset. How one must go to a “higher” level(s) before getting certain books as Rayvn pointed out. its important since the inconsistancies we see here are in literature that is “open” to all. What about inconsistancies with Elder’s manuals over the years? Or Kingdom Ministry books over the years? Or the old Aid to bible understanding books over their short life span? (I think you get the point)
Is the light is getting brighter:idea: the only explaination for why these inconsistancies occur?
I do hope I can continue to dialoge with charity and be welcoming to Bible Steve so he feels he can freely discuss this with us.
I feel like I am learning quite a bit from the dialoge here.
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Claude_Kenneson
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Have Jehovah’s Witnesses ever claimed they were inspired prophets? Examine the record.
quotes-watchtower.co.uk/god_s_prophet.htm
The Watchtower Society claims that they are the only ones who understand the Bible correctly and if you don’t understand it their way, you are in error. The Watchtower Society is dogmatic about its teachings, claiming to be “the faithful and discreet slave” of the Bible. Any member who challenges their doctrines are promptly disfellowshipped for causing dissension or/and apostasy. Their history is replete with chronological predictions of dates purportedly supported by the Bible, which have proven time and again to be erroneous. Yet, they call anyone who makes similar predictions outside of their ranks, false prophets, but in their case it’s merely “wrong expectations.” Go figure.
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Hellisreal
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I wonder why the JW’s dont have a forum like this one to have members defend their beliefs? 
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yessisan
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Because some might be convinced by others like us, that the WT is only lying to them.I wonder why the JW’s dont have a forum like this one to have members defend their beliefs?
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BibleSteve
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OK
Yessisan claims the Catholic Church is teaching her JW’s believe in the Trinity:
“Anywho, to respond to one of your questions to me… I got the idea that JWs believed in the Trinity because I have seen things that come from the CC that say so. You trust your Societys and I trust my Chruch.”
And she’s got photographic evidence the JW governing body members were giving blood:
“And this is why two of the governing body members donated blood at a UN blood drive? They were photographed so there’s proof of this. It’s all hyprocrisy.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=2314253&highlight=governing+body+blood#post2314253
But again, there was nothing but a reference to JW representative attending a World Health Day event to talk about non-blood alternatives.
Yessisan insists her local congregation is telling her something contrary to fundamental JW doctrine:
“After seeing the texts you sent me, I can see that it has been told many times the JWs do not claim inspiration from God, but that doesn’t take the fact away that when I attended the meetings, the elders many times said the Watchtower and their publications were inspired. Do you think this congregation might be running w/wrong information? It’s misleading to attend a meeting and hear this, when you have proved to me that the WTBS doesn’t say this.”
And although multiple JW’s have told her the idea is wrong, Yessian insists a pioneer sister told her the Watchtower Society sends articles to the Catholic Church for approval, because they are concerned the Catholic Church might sue them.
I’m sorry Yessisan, I’ve spent a lot of time and effort with you in PM’s and emails to help you with your misconceptions. However, there is a practical limit in doing so. Some people start noticing a pattern that anti-JW’s allegations are either flat out lies, misrepresentations of our views, or just plain negatively slanted.
Others just dig in and insist they are right even when presented clear evidence in print.
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