My rant on Unity

[Syele]

If they claim this, then why are there such things as the various Baptist Conventions, Moderators of General Councils, and the Bishop of Canterbury?

The Protestant claim to doctrinal unity in essentials would gain a lot more credibility if they would just pick one institution for all of them to follow, instead of having how many dozens of different ones.

You don’t have to like the Protestant unity. Disbelieving that we have one doesn’t make it go away.finding it not “credible” doesn’t negate it either, tons of protestants have many issues with the Catholic Pope. Doesn’t make the Pope change or go away.

Also finding disunity among others does not negate the disunity you have among yourselves . If your authority negates your disunity, then my authority can negate mine. Unless you are just saying that double standards are the appropriate way to go.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Show me were in this thread (or ANY other thread for that matter) where I’ve ever contended that the Church ought to be judged by its members who do not adhere to Church teachings.You can look though all 1,741 of my posts and you won’t find it. Even if 1,000 of my posts hadn’t been lost in the forum crash, and you looked though those you STILL wouldn’t find it cause I didn’t ever say any such thing.

Syele,

I have never contended that you said “the Church ought to be judged by its members who do not adhere to Church teachings.”

But I do contend that to judge the Church upon this slimmest of arguments (addressing early Protestant heresies re Grace and Free Will) invites responses which you may (rightly, too) feel are harsh and uncharitable.

I read the whole thread last night before I posted my first response. I am sorry if you think I did not.

Besides, it’s hard to be uncharitable to someone who posts a Veblen quotation on her signature line.

Robert

 

[Syele]

Syele,

 

[Syele]

Syele,

I have never contended that you said “the Church ought to be judged by its members who do not adhere to Church teachings.”

But I do contend that to judge the Church upon this slimmest of arguments (addressing early Protestant heresies re Grace and Free Will) invites responses which you may (rightly, too) feel are harsh and uncharitable.

I read the whole thread last night before I posted my first response. I am sorry if you think I did not.

Besides, it’s hard to be uncharitable to someone who posts a Veblen quotation on her signature line.

Robert

Thomism and Monlinism are not Protestant Heresies

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Gabriel of 12;3323614:

You are right, they are at liberty to disagree.

THAT IS THE POINT! IF they are at liberty to disagree then they are NOT in unity.

Non-Denominationals are at liberty to disagree on everything except a core of doctrines…that is no different… Yet Catholics want to call non-denominationals not one denomination but a separate denomination FOR every congregation! Tell me how this is not a double standard when dealing with protestants.**

B]This is not a double standard because the differences of opinion regarding a teaching or doctrine of the Catholic Church is… The catholic who holds an opinion does not leave the Catholic Church and go start a Augustinian Christian church belief system, we remain unified under the authority of the defined doctrine. That is the difference, A Catholic theologian will submit to the one faith doctrine, his opinion does not leave him to start a new belief system. That is why most Catholic around the World would not have known any of your listed pressumed faith ideologies to be doctrine. Because they have never been heard of, there’s only one doctrine that all Roman Catholic priests, 'Bishops, Deacons teach, it is taught in a different language or cultural setting but it will remain the same doctrine taught by all Catholics and believed.**

Now as far as Protestantism, their doctrines and founders differ in their sound doctrine, the protestant movement keeps getting divided because, when one disagrees with their authority, they just go out and start a new belief system. A Catholic can’t in the end he submits to the defined doctrine of the Catholic faith. That is why Jesus built his church upon the “Rock” it cannot be moved, less changed./B]

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Armininism and Calvinism have the same end result too, but define different means to get there. Also the two roughly match up in basic ideas (yes there are differences) with Thomism and Molinism. However, I’m told by Catholics that Because of the huge differences between Arminians and Calvinists that we HAVE to be called separate denominations or as said in this thread “**a new protestant chapter in all of protestantism,” **

but in the same thread I’m told that and equally VAST difference of opinions among Catholics on the same subject DOES NOT REPRESENT DISUNITY.

THAT is an unfortunate “neener, neener” on those Catholic (!) posters, then.

The question should not be framed as one of ‘unity/disunity’ unless we are discussing how major Christian doctrine morphs through various ‘Prophets’ and ‘Seers’ and charismatic frogs like Koresh, and Jones and that goofball in Philadelphia and those mormon polygamists in northern AZ/southern CO.

This is where many Catholics (myself especially) get rankled when someone claiming divine guidance (using the 1611 KJV !! ) says he is the Second Coming of Christ.

That’s how sects start: spun off from one ‘founded’ in 1912 from one ‘founded’ in 1830 from one ‘founded’ in 1773 from one (Church of England) splitting from Rome in the 1500s.

That is the “disunity” that besets ALL believers.

Mainstream Christians (Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant) are more UNIFIED than these newer personality-driven sects.

Robert

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Syele,

My earliest comments were in support of you and trying to clarify what I thought other posters (Mannyfit means well but he comes across as a bull in a china shop at times).

BUMP

Did you miss this one, Syele??

 

[Syele]

**B] The catholic who holds an opinion does not leave the Catholic Church and go start a Augustinian Christian church belief system, we remain unified under the authority of the defined doctrine. That is the difference, A Catholic theologian will submit to the one faith doctrine, his opinion does not leave him to start a new belief system. **

Protestant don’t have to follow the Catholic rules. They do have to follow protestant rules or they cease to be a Protestant. Granted there are way fewer Protestant rules. That does not mean that Catholics should or even really can hold protestants to Catholic rules.

**
That is why most Catholic around the World would not have known any of your listed pressumed faith ideologies to be doctrine. Because they have never been heard of, there’s only one doctrine that all Roman Catholic priests, 'Bishops, Deacons teach, it is taught in a different language or cultural setting but it will remain the same doctrine taught by all Catholics and believed.**

I didn’t presume them, I read about them from Catholics. Catholics who had heard of them. I’ve seen threads on them by Catholics here on CAF they are in all the online Catholic Dictionaries etc. They are referenced where ever I see things about Grace and Predestination. They HAVE been heard of and discussed and debated BY Catholics with Catholics. Your failure to have heard of them before I brought them up hardly means I presumed them. Guess where I first heard about them? Right here on CAF from a Catholic!

A Catholic can’t in the end he submits to the defined doctrine of the Catholic faith. That is why Jesus built his church upon the “Rock” it cannot be moved, less changed.

Sheesh! I never said Catholic Doctrine was changed. Or moved. What has that got to do with the thread??

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’ll answer that when you can tell me which is teaching the whole truth, Molinists, Thomists or Augustinians.

Molinist, Thomists, and Augustinian are philosophical schools taught by Molin, Thomas, and Augustine… They aren’t the Magisterium. You haven’t prove that they are.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I never said Protestantism isn’t divided. It’s Catholics telling me Catholics are not. I don’t have to prove Protestants are not divided when 1. I never asserted it (nor did anyone else I know of) and 2. Weather protestants are divided or not has NOTHING to do with weather Catholics are divided. You say you are united because you all are united in believing in following the Pope, but the Pope doesn’t dogmatically declare everything, and the Church even declared it ok to differ on Grace/predestination among other things. That shows you are united in one way but divided in others.

Christians are ALL united in at least one way… we believe Jesus is God.
B]Not so, there are non Catholic christians who do not believe Jesus is God. All Catholics believe Jesus is God.

The Church of Jesus Christ (one holy Catholic and apostolic church) cannot be divided among herself, or else the kingdom crumbles. Thats why she has survived these 2000 years.

Protestant has divided among themselves thus, crumbling doctrine and as time goes on the futher they get from the one true faith, one lord and baptism that scripture states.****

 

[Mannyfit75]

Gabriel of 12;3324100. [**B**:

Not so, there are non Catholic christians who do not believe Jesus is God. All Catholics believe Jesus is God.

The Church of Jesus Christ (one holy Catholic and apostolic church) cannot be divided among herself, or else the kingdom crumbles. Thats why she has survived these 2000 years.

Protestant has divided among themselves thus, crumbling doctrine and as time goes on the futher they get from the one true faith, one lord and baptism that scripture states.**

Amen.

This is the summary; Catholicism, united for 2,000 yrs. Protestants divided. If you disagree with doctrine, make your own Church. The legacy of Martin Luther…

 

[jmcrae]

You don’t have to like the Protestant unity.

Protestants are not unified. They turn to all different institutions for their authority.

Disbelieving that we have one doesn’t make it go away.

Where is it physically located? If I were a Protestant and I had a question about disciplinary practices, and I wanted to go straight to the highest authority here on earth, who would I ask? (And why wouldn’t every single other Protestant on earth ask that same person?)

Also finding disunity among others does not negate the disunity you have among yourselves . If your authority negates your disunity, then my authority can negate mine.

It doesn’t, though. In fact, some Protestant authorities rejoice in it.

“A Protestant who does not rebel against the religion in which he was brought up is just a pseudo-Catholic who has taken on a Protestant tradition.” James H. Nicholls, A Protestant’s Primer.

 

[Syele]

THAT is an unfortunate “neener, neener” on those Catholic (!) posters, then.

oh I did… sorry.

My earliest comments were in support of you and trying to clarify what I thought other posters (Mannyfit means well but he comes across as a bull in a china shop at times).

LOL he does a little. Kinda drove me nuts back when I was new to CAF. Now I’m used to him and can see he is answering in zeal. I find no fault with zeal and him holding a strong understanding of what he believes in.

What I sensed from your postings (and the support from Agnos Theist) was that here was a “neener, neener” at the Catholics for claiming ALL Protestants are in TOTAL disagreement.

If someone wrote that, I will go on record as writing that is a mistaken impression at best and an outright lie at worst.

Thus my comments to you about what we HAVE IN COMMON and how that supersedes the splitting hairs exercises.

Honestly, I have been amazed and at times in utter disbelief at some of the stuff people come up with to say against protestants, often at the expense of their own Church. Usually I ignore it as anti-protestant blather. Occasionally I complain a bit and am told then that I’m oversensitive. and then once in a long while I just let out a rant like this one over it. What is often the case though, is that those who respond to such rants are rarely ever the people the rants were directed at in the first place.

We do have many important things in common. though I do feel that very few even got my point in this thread. Perhaps someone reading it will understand it it might make a difference to them.

Just remember(addressed to all), the way Catholics respond to Protestants (or Vice versa) does make a difference to the witness of the Church. IF people use blatant exaggerations to try to make points, and apply rules of discourse randomly or only as double-standards, it might sound good to the person doing it, but it’s not bringing anyone closer to your Church but instead, pushing them away with the idea that you know you are better than them. One doesn’t have to try to be a jerk in order to appear like one. Charity is good.

Protestants are not unified in NOTHING.
Catholics are not Unified in EVERYTHING.
ALL church splits are not about Doctrine.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Syele:
Protestant don’t have to follow the Catholic rules. They do have to follow protestant rules or they cease to be a Protestant. Granted there are way fewer Protestant rules. That does not mean that Catholics should or even really can hold protestants to Catholic rules.

Your right I agree, Protestants dont have to follow Catholic doctrine, and they dont. Catholics cannot hold protestants to her rules, but,when it comes to the revelations of Jesus Christ and his teachings, The Pope will have the final say, thus saith the Lord. It will be up the protestant to adhere to truth, instead of protesting truth.

I didn’t presume them, I read about them from Catholics. Catholics who had heard of them. I’ve seen threads on them by Catholics here on CAF they are in all the online Catholic Dictionaries etc. They are referenced where ever I see things about Grace and Predestination. They HAVE been heard of and discussed and debated BY Catholics with Catholics. Your failure to have heard of them before I brought them up hardly means I presumed them. Guess where I first heard about them? Right here on CAF from a Catholic!

I understand your point clearly, the reason why the pew Catholic has never heard of the Different Grace opinions that you mentioned, is because it was not taught to them as Doctrine., the only one we heard and know about is the one the Church defines as doctrine.

Syele, I have to thank you, I have learned alot from you.

Sheesh! I never said Catholic Doctrine was changed. Or moved. What has that got to do with the thread??

Hoping to understand that Catholics are in one faith united in one doctrine, compared to the many Protestant divided doctrines. Thats why I mentioned the Catholic doctrine cannot be changed, or moved, even though her theologians may differ in opinions.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Protestants are not unified in NOTHING.

True statement. Protestants is a divided form of Christianity. It keeps on dividing.

Catholics are not Unified in EVERYTHING.

False statement. Catholics are united in doctrine and faith. Only in the Catholic Church, you have parts of the Eastern Orthodox Church re-unit with Rome several centuries ago. Where is that in the other Churches?

ALL church splits are not about Doctrine.

It is one faith, one mind, and one spirit. This itself is the deposit of faith. That is unity. That is doctrine revealed to us by God through His Church.

 

[Syele]

Protestants are not unified. They turn to all different institutions for their authority.

the Bible and the Holy Spirit are 100% unified and are the Protestant Authority. Protestant who do not listen to Scripture and the Holy Spirit are in the wrong, just as Cafeteria Catholics are in the wrong.

Where is it physically located? If I were a Protestant and I had a question about disciplinary practices, and I wanted to go straight to the highest authority here on earth, who would I ask? (And why wouldn’t every single other Protestant on earth ask that same person?)

Open the nearest copy of the Bible and read it and Pray. God is the Authority. He trumps all others. And every single Protestant on earth asks Him. Sadly all don’t listen. Can’t say all Catholics listen to the Pope either.

 

[Mannyfit75]

the Bible and the Holy Spirit are 100% unified and are the Protestant Authority. Protestant who do not listen to Scripture and the Holy Spirit are in the wrong, just as Cafeteria Catholics are in the wrong.

Protestant authority? with so many different set of beliefs. Oh, please. When a Protestant minister claim that you can lose your salvation, while another Protestant minister claim you can’t lose your salvation. They claim the Holy Spirit is guided them? So which is true?

Caferia Catholics are wrong. Catholics need to be obedient to all teaching of the Catholic Church. If they aren’t they are hypocrites.

Open the nearest copy of the Bible and read it and Pray. God is the Authority. He trumps all others. And every single Protestant on earth asks Him. Sadly all don’t listen. Can’t say all Catholics listen to the Pope either.

Catholics need to listen to the Pope because he is Christ’s representative on earth. I also like to add that in the Catholic Church, God is the authority. That’s not limited to Protestants. You can’t monopolize who God has authority.

 

[jmcrae]

the Bible and the Holy Spirit are 100% unified and are the Protestant Authority. Protestant who do not listen to Scripture and the Holy Spirit are in the wrong, just as Cafeteria Catholics are in the wrong.

So, what is the purpose of the various Baptist Conventions and Moderators of General Councils, etc.? (I won’t bring the Archbishop of Canterbury into it, because I don’t even think he knows what his job is, these days. By the way, does “Protestant unity” mean that you get to defend his recent actions, or are you only unified with him on the things you agree with him on?)

Open the nearest copy of the Bible and read it and Pray. God is the Authority. He trumps all others. And every single Protestant on earth asks Him. Sadly all don’t listen.

So, who makes sure I’m actually praying to God, and not to Satan or something?

 

[Syele]

Your right I agree, Protestants dont have to follow Catholic doctrine, and they dont. Catholics cannot hold protestants to her rules, but,when it comes to the revelations of Jesus Christ and his teachings, The Pope will have the final say, thus saith the Lord. It will be up the protestant to adhere to truth, instead of protesting truth.

erm. I think I misunderstand… You are saying Protestants don’t have to follow the rules of the Pope but we still have to? Careful now, most protestants now a days are seeking the truth, not protesting it. Only a handful of denominations even tell their congregations anything at all about Catholics. Millions of Protestants don’t know anything about Catholics at all in order to be called “Protesters”

I understand your point clearly, the reason why the pew Catholic has never heard of the Different Grace opinions that you mentioned, is because it was not taught to them as Doctrine., the only one we heard and know about is the one the Church defines as doctrine.

I did mention that in one post already… you cannot soundly teach something that has differing answers depending on the person.

Syele, I have to thank you, I have learned alot from you.

I’m glad to have helped.

Hoping to understand that Catholics are in one faith united in one doctrine, compared to the many Protestant divided doctrines. Thats why I mentioned the Catholic doctrine cannot be changed, or moved, even though her theologians may differ in opinions.

I do not disagree that Catholics have unity in some ways. I disagreed with the idea that Catholics have unity in ALL things and Protestants in none. I also wanted to point out that Arminians are not a denomination. is it a theology that many people adhere to, much like Thomism among Catholics. One doesn’t open the phone book and find an Armenian Church or a Thomist Church to go visit, This among Protestants is NOT different than among Catholics. differing views are allowed within the same churches.While some Protestant Denominations have chosen to align with Arminianism (see Methodists) or Calvinism (see Southern Baptists) so that sound teaching can ensue without constant debate, a great many others do not align specifically with one or the other. And you see Arminians worshiping right beside Calvinists in Unity.

These doctrines are not minor ones, they deal with the very nature of God, How is His justice carried out? It even changes the idea behind how Jesus atoned for our sins. the option to not teach it seems a very wrong one to me. I’d say such doctrine is BIG not small like say hand holding during the Our Father. Equal to Baptism and Holy Communion in how we relate to God. Catholics may be Unified in how they shouldn’t call names over it, but that is not a good excuse to not study it and seek God for Truth. And that Unification also does not negate the differences of opinion.

 

[Syele]

Protestant authority? with so many different set of beliefs. Oh, please. When a Protestant minister claim that you can lose your salvation, while another Protestant minister claim you can’t lose your salvation. They claim the Holy Spirit is guided them? So which is true?

The truth is that some who claim the Holy Spirit Guides them are obviously wrong or outright lying. I was told yesterday by someone that he is an Catholic Athiest. Just cause he says so, doesn’t make it possible.

Caferia Catholics are wrong. Catholics need to be obedient to all teaching of the Catholic Church. If they aren’t they are hypocrites.

People not listening to the Holy Spirit are wrong. All Christians need to be obedient to all teaching of God. If they aren’t they are hypocrites or sadly misguided.

Catholics need to listen to the Pope because he is Christ’s representative on earth. I also like to add that in the Catholic Church, God is the authority. That’s not limited to Protestants. You can’t monopolize who God has authority.

Don’t misunderstand me, I do not mean by anything I’ve said that Catholics don’t have God as an authority. All Christians should have God as Their Ultimate authority. I was specifically being questions about my Earthly Authority, I listed Jesus and the Bible. Catholics listed the Pope. No one was trying to Exclude God from Catholics.