My rant on Unity

[VARC]

First of all Limbo is not a doctrine period.

Not so fast…

doctrine
3 entries found.

doctrinefairness doctrineMonroe Doctrine

Main Entry: doc·trine
Pronunciation: \ˈdäk-trən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
Date: 14th century
1archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a: **something that is taught b: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief **: dogma c: a principle of law established through past decisions d: a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations e: a military principle or set of strategies

Limbo is most certainly a doctrine; teaching; something that is taught ect

secondly, Mary mediatrix of all graces. is not a topic of debate it is doctrine.

No catholic has been required by the Pope at any time to believe that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces

. This is my point, no matter who has a difference of opinion of Catholic doctrine, it does not change, whether we like or not.

Then you are arguing off point. Syele’s point was that it is unfair to tout how unified the catholic faith is when there is a diversity of faith in areas such as grace, limbo, etc. She didn’t mention anything about changes

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Not so fast…

doctrine
3 entries found.

doctrinefairness doctrineMonroe Doctrine

Main Entry: doc·trine
Pronunciation: \ˈdäk-trən\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin doctrina, from doctor
Date: 14th century
1archaic : teaching, instruction
2 a: **something that is taught b: a principle or position or the body of principles in a branch of knowledge or system of belief **: dogma c: a principle of law established through past decisions d: a statement of fundamental government policy especially in international relations e: a military principle or set of strategies

Limbo is most certainly a doctrine; teaching; something that is
taught ect

Your definition of Limbo does not determine it to be a doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church, it was taught by some fathers of the church but never was it defined as a doctrine of the Catholic Church.

No catholic has been required by the Pope at any time to believe that Mary is the mediatrix of all graces

That is exactly my point until one comes to the understanding of Mary being Mediatrix of all Graces, the title can put any unbeliiever to run, once you grasp the understanding, you will understand the churches teaching on Mary being Mediatrix of all Graces.The Roman Catholic Church has 4 doctrines on the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Then you are arguing off point. Syele’s point was that it is unfair to tout how unified the catholic faith is when there is a diversity of faith in areas such as grace, limbo, etc. She didn’t mention anything about changes

I was not arguing off point, I stated Protestants have different belief systems due to the numerous different doctrines. Syele stated that the Catholic Church also has different belief systems, and different doctrine amongst Catholic Church;s to which I disagreed. The Catholic Church has only one faith made up of different peoples, nations, and tongues, that in order to be Catholic we follow only one Lord, one faith, one baptism. to which Protestantism cannot make this biblical claim

 

[Mannyfit75]

So you think that these Catholics claiming complete unity are stating a misconception not lying?

In the Catholic Church there is unity in doctrine and no different belief. These doctrines are part of the deposit of faith. These are not misconceptions.

The misconceptions I am referring to are those Protestants (not all of them) who believe Catholics are Christians, that we worship Mary, that our Church is the whore of babylon, etc. Those are misconceptions. Distorted facts mix with the truth.

That is true, switch around the words Catholic and protestant and it’s still true…

That’s a true statement. The main point that both Catholics and Protestants need to open up more and try to understanding. You can disagree all you like, but the more both parties understanding, the more tolerable we become.

Exactly, that is my question to you, Catholics must clear up misconceptions protestants have about Catholics… Why do Protestants have to just sit by and pray rather than clear up the misconceptions Catholics have about Protestants? Shouldn’t BOTH groups clear up misconceptions?

Most of our misconceptions about Protestants is the many confusing beliefs you have. Some of you believe in the Real Presence, some of you do not. Some of you believe in OSAS, some of you do not, some of you believe that baptism saves, some of you do not. Some of you baptize infants, some of you do not. Some of you believe in the Trinity, some of you do not. Yes, Non-Trinitarian Christians are Christians because they at least believe that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, but their beliefs are distorted.

 

[Hesychios]

First of all Limbo is not a doctrine period.

The way it was taught throughout the church one would think of it as a doctrine. I guess the only Roman Catholic alternative, innocent children languishing in hell, was too awful for most people to contemplate, so they embraced this non-doctrine as a rationalization.

No wonder people are confused.

I think the whole “it’s not a doctrine” is just a dodge. If priests and bishops, members of the Magisterium, teach it for generations unopposed…it is doctrine.

Michael

 

[Mannyfit75]

The way it was taught throughout the church one would think of it as a doctrine. I guess the only Roman Catholic alternative, innocent children languishing in hell, was too awful for most people to contemplate, so they embraced this non-doctrine as a rationalization.

No wonder people are confused.

I think the whole “it’s not a doctrine” is just a dodge. If priests and bishops, members of the Magisterium, teach it for generations unopposed…it is doctrine.

Michael

Michael, Limbo was never a doctrine. I found no Church document saying it was. There were theologians who wrote about it and made theories on it. Second, I grew up Catholic and the only I know was Heaven, Purgatory, and Hell. Limbo was not even taught to me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Limbo, Mary mediatrix of all graces, NSEE, are hardly social issues. They are religious doctrines.

Limbo not doctrine, Mary, being mediatrix of all grace is not defined doctrine but it was been talked about by theologians. I don’t know what NSEE so I won’t commit on that.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Augustine and Molinists believe different things but both are acceptable according the the Catholic Church, All I can gather from this information is that the CCC must be vague enough in it’s wording to allow for either. Molinists, Thomists and Augustinians are not any of them considered outside of Catholic approved teachings. I don’t believe you are even supposed to be saying they are…

**I am not contesting Augustinian or Molinists thesis on Grace, they are at liberty to disagree or define, utimately They submit to the Roman Catholic Church definition on Grace or any other topic has to be believed by Catholic in order to be Catholic, And if the Two or any other disagree, the final doctrine is set in stone. whether their disagreements falls under the doctrine thats to remain seen by you, (please read CCC on Grace), Catholic doctrine is only one belief that is taught to her members, it does not change,

Now I will grant you this, throughout history the doctrines have become more defined by different theologians.To help new thinking , languages and cultures to understand her doctrines, this what you might consider different beliefs in reality they are not , the doctrine remains the same. All Roman Catholics are united in the one faith.**

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The way it was taught throughout the church one would think of it as a doctrine. I guess the only Roman Catholic alternative, innocent children languishing in hell, was too awful for most people to contemplate, so they embraced this non-doctrine as a rationalization.

No wonder people are confused.

I think the whole “it’s not a doctrine” is just a dodge. If priests and bishops, members of the Magisterium, teach it for generations unopposed…it is doctrine.

**I am not stating limbo not to be a doctrine to dodge a fact: It is a fact. Limbo is a term used among Priests to understand where the souls of dead, unbaptized infants. The Roman Catholic Church holds that they are under the Mercy and Grace of God, (Thus limbo), this is not a doctrine of faith, it is a teaching to help us understand this mystery. **

Michael

 

[Syele]

In the Catholic Church there is unity in doctrine and no different belief. These doctrines are part of the deposit of faith. These are not misconceptions.

But I have just pointed out some different beliefs… yet, no one seems willing to address them!

The misconceptions I am referring to are those Protestants (not all of them) who believe Catholics are Christians, that we worship Mary, that our Church is the whore of babylon, etc. Those are misconceptions. Distorted facts mix with the truth.

That’s a true statement. The main point that both Catholics and Protestants need to open up more and try to understanding. You can disagree all you like, but the more both parties understanding, the more tolerable we become.

Most of our misconceptions about Protestants is the many confusing beliefs you have. Some of you believe in the Real Presence, some of you do not. Some of you believe in OSAS, some of you do not, some of you believe that baptism saves, some of you do not. Some of you baptize infants, some of you do not. Some of you believe in the Trinity, some of you do not. Yes, Non-Trinitarian Christians are Christians because they at least believe that Jesus Christ is the promised Messiah, but their beliefs are distorted.

I just don’t see how any of this has to do with my point. And there are plenty of misconceptions about Protestants that have nothing to do with out differing beliefs… but again, not the topic of the thread.

 

[Syele]

Syele;3322625:

Augustine and Molinists believe different things but both are acceptable according the the Catholic Church, All I can gather from this information is that the CCC must be vague enough in it’s wording to allow for either. Molinists, Thomists and Augustinians are not any of them considered outside of Catholic approved teachings. I don’t believe you are even supposed to be saying they are…

**I am not contesting Augustinian or Molinists thesis on Grace, they are at liberty to disagree or define, utimately They submit to the Roman Catholic Church definition on Grace or any other topic has to be believed by Catholic in order to be Catholic, And if the Two or any other disagree, the final doctrine is set in stone. whether their disagreements falls under the doctrine thats to remain seen by you, (please read CCC on Grace), Catholic doctrine is only one belief that is taught to her members, it does not change,
**

You are right, they are at liberty to disagree. THAT IS THE POINT! IF they are at liberty to disagree then they are NOT in unity.

Non-Denominationals are at liberty to disagree on everything except a core of doctrines…that is no different… Yet Catholics want to call non-denominationals not one denomination but a separate denomination FOR every congregation! Tell me how this is not a double standard when dealing with protestants.

 

[Mannyfit75]

But I have just pointed out some different beliefs… yet, no one seems willing to address them!

Are they dogmatically clarified by the Magisterium? Perhaps, I didn’t read that you pointed those differences. Give me examples of those so called different beliefs.

I doubt your statement that Catholics held different belief than the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I like to add that the summary of our Catholic faith is found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. If it is not there, that belief is only an opinion, not a belief.

 

[Mannyfit75]

You are right, they are at liberty to disagree. THAT IS THE POINT! IF they are at liberty to disagree then they are NOT in unity.

And they are wrong to disagree. They have to believe everything what the Catholic Church teaches. Otherwise, they will be held accountible for what they have done, and the One Judge will condemned them as to why didn’t they listen to his Church.

Non-Denominationals are at liberty to disagree on everything except a core of doctrines…that is no different… Yet Catholics want to call non-denominationals not one denomination but a separate denomination FOR every congregation! Tell me how this is not a double standard when dealing with protestants.

Protestants aren’t united. Catholics are united in One faith, and doctrine. Like St. Paul said, one heart, one faith. Protestants lack that.

 

[Syele]

Are they dogmatically clarified by the Magisterium? Perhaps, I didn’t read that you pointed those differences. Give me examples of those so called different belief.

I doubt your statement that Catholics held different belief than the Magisterium of the Catholic Church.

I already said this in several posts.

The Church officially declared at least 3 of them to be acceptable and said you are not allowed to call any of the groups of beliefs on Grace “Heresy”. They declared this despite the fact that the 3 things disagree.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/ANSWERS/TULIP.htm:

Since the controversy over grace in the late 1500s and early 1600s, Thomists and Molinists have been forbidden to accuse each other of heresy. In 1748 the Church declared Thomism, Molinism, and a third view known as Augustinianism to be acceptable Catholic teachings.

THIS LINK = gratia.info/controversies.htm lists out each one and what they mean in the shortest format I’ve ever seen them described. Other links to it are all over the place with much longer more detailed explanations.

I keep giving this information over and over, yet no one seems interested in actually Clicking the links and reading it, just saying over and over that they don’t believe they differed or that the Church couldn’t have declared it. I don’t go to anti-Catholic sources, That was EWTN.com in an article by James Akin. gratia.info I am very unfamiliar with, but based on their comments on “Luther’s Heresies”, Catholic information, plus this : The Catholic Encyclopedia, Volume VI
Copyright © 1909 by Robert Appleton Company
Online Edition Copyright © 1999 by Kevin Knight
Nihil Obstat, September 1, 1909. Remy Lafort, Censor
Imprimatur. +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York

The Catholic Encyclopedia: NewAdvent.org

I figure they are Catholic. If you have a problem with my sources, say so so I can get more.

 

[jmcrae]

If so, then Catholics are discredited as well as they do have one division. They simply declared it against the rules to claim either side is a heretic. That doesn’t negate the division.

No, because they are all under the same Pope.

I think people look at the divisions in Protestantism and attribute them to differences in theology, or whatever, but maybe what you are trying to say is that differences in theology are not the reason that Protestants are divided - after all, you can have several people who are all members of the same denomination (Baptists, say) who differ in their theology, where some are Arminian and some are Calvinist, etc.

So, the question now is not “Are Catholics divided theologically” because obviously they are not - we all remain loyal to the same Pope, and we all attend Mass on Sundays at churches that are at least formally recognized as being in full communion with the Pope, even though sometimes things go wrong in the liturgy that make you want to check again and make sure you got the right address.

Instead, the question becomes, “Okay - how come there are Presbyterians, and Baptists, and Mennonites, and Dutch Reformed, and Methodists, and Lutherans, and Anglicans, if differences in theology, in and of themselves, don’t necessarily cause division?”

Because Protestantism clearly is divided - just look in the phone book. Or down the block. And Catholicism is not. And yet, both sides seem to have similar kinds of theological differences amongst themselves.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I already said this in several posts.

The Church officially declared at least 3 of them to be acceptable and said you are not allowed to call any of the groups of beliefs on Grace “Heresy”. They declared this despite the fact that the 3 things disagree.

You lost me? What did the Church declared at least 3 of them to be acceptible? What three?

THIS LINK = gratia.info/controversies.htm lists out each one and what they mean in the shortest format I’ve ever seen them described. Other links to it are all over the place with much longer more detailed explanations.

I keep giving this information over and over, yet no one seems interested in actually Clicking the links and reading it, just saying over and over that they don’t believe they differed or that the Church couldn’t have declared it. I don’t go to anti-Catholic sources

Those are opinions. They are differ in theologian opinions and are not part of the doctrine of the faith. The different set of beliefs which you claim is non-existence, Syele. Unless it is defined by the Catholic Church, it is not doctrine.

This is no different when Catholic theologians debated over the existence of Limbo.

I adhere your zeal and try to understand. However, the disunity which you speak of is empty.

 

[Syele]

No, because they are all under the same Pope.

I think people look at the divisions in Protestantism and attribute them to differences in theology, or whatever, but maybe what you are trying to say is that differences in theology are not the reason that Protestants are divided - after all, you can have several people who are all members of the same denomination (Baptists, say) who differ in their theology, where some are Arminian and some are Calvinist, etc.

So, the question now is not “Are Catholics divided theologically” because obviously they are not - we all remain loyal to the same Pope, and we all attend Mass on Sundays at churches that are at least formally recognized as being in full communion with the Pope, even though sometimes things go wrong in the liturgy that make you want to check again and make sure you got the right address.

Instead, the question becomes, “Okay - how come there are Presbyterians, and Baptists, and Mennonites, and Dutch Reformed, and Methodists, and Lutherans, and Anglicans, if differences in theology, in and of themselves, don’t necessarily cause division?”

Because Protestantism clearly is divided - just look in the phone book. Or down the block. And Catholicism is not. And yet, both sides seem to have similar kinds of theological differences amongst themselves.

I never said Protestantism isn’t divided. It’s Catholics telling me Catholics are not. I don’t have to prove Protestants are not divided when 1. I never asserted it (nor did anyone else I know of) and 2. Weather protestants are divided or not has NOTHING to do with weather Catholics are divided. You say you are united because you all are united in believing in following the Pope, but the Pope doesn’t dogmatically declare everything, and the Church even declared it ok to differ on Grace/predestination among other things. That shows you are united in one way but divided in others. Christians are ALL united in at least one way… we believe Jesus is God. that doesn’t automatically follow that we are completely united in everything!

 

[Syele]

You lost me? What did the Church declared at least 3 of them to be acceptible? What three?

Those are opinions. They are differ in theologian opinions and are not part of the doctrine of the faith. The different set of beliefs which you claim is non-existence, Syele. Unless it is defined by the Catholic Church, it is not doctrine.

This is no different when Catholic theologians debated over the existence of Limbo.

I adhere your zeal and try to understand. However, the disunity which you speak of is empty.

Did you read the quote I posted??? or ANY of my post? The Church declared all three of them acceptable in 1748. I even put it in bold for you. If you can’t even read the quote, I don’t know why I’m talking to you about the quote.

 

[Mannyfit75]

The unity of the Catholic Church is this.

1. We have One Pope, who we believe is the successor of Peter, who Jesus Christ build his Church upon.
2. Our Catholic Church is infallible when speaking faith and moral. The Pope has this virtue or gift, and so does the Magisterium; that is the bishop in union with the Pope, such as Church Council.
3. When dispute arises the Church settles the issues. It is responsible for the lay faithful to follow the teaching of the Catholic Church.
4. If they break any commandments, all sinners are called to repentance.
5. We celebrate our Divine Liturgy or Mass by partaking in the sacrifice of the Mass. We worship from rising to the east to the setting of the sun.
6. We have Seven Sacraments.
7. Most of all, we believe that Jesus Christ established only One Church. We have one heart, and one faith. There is no disunity in the Catholic Church.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Did you read the quote I posted??? or ANY of my post? The Church declared all three of them acceptable in 1748. I even put it in bold for you. If you can’t even read the quote, I don’t know why I’m talking to you about the quote.

I did. What three are you talking about? Why can’t you write it out?

 

[Syele]

I did. What three are you talking about? Why can’t you write it out?

I DID WRITE IT OUT! Over and over and over

on July 13, 1748 the Catholic Church DECLARED in a brief of Pope Benedict XIV that Thomists, Augustinians, and Molinists Are ALL teaching acceptable teachings.

Thomist, Augustinian, and Molinist DO NOT all agree.

And the reason I won’t write out all the beliefs of Thomists, Augustinians, and Molinists is because there is a LOT of information involved in each one. I am not an expert on any of them, though I have studied them. It would take several full posts on each of the three to describe them all fully and WHY would you want to learn about them from some protestant you barely know online instead of reading about them from well-established Catholic sources??