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jam070406
Guest
Well, at least you admit that your church changed and no longer follows Truth.
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DelScorcho
Guest
And what’s wrong with that?Yeah, God’s way is to avoid children by surgical means.
There are many ways to avoid having children… one is by refusing to have sex. No big deal.
D
DelScorcho
Guest
Prove it to me that my vasectomy is a sin or should I just take your church’s word for it?
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I’m sorry, I don’t dispute that the Presbyterian Church believes in the Trinity. It is simply that the Trinity in which they believe was articulated by the Catholic Church.
And by what authority do you say that the teaching on birth control is nothing more than a church rule? That’s the question we keep coming back to: by what authority?
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ChristizkingAO7
Guest
well plain and simple man, if you take control of whether or not you have children, you then take life into your own hands. Sayin really, “God i dont think i want anymore children so even if you want to give me some, i dont think i should have’em” And reall thats kinda just commen sense 
J
jam070406
Guest
Yes, for the benefit of your soul, you should believe what The Church teaches. That’s what we’re trying to get through to you.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
That depends on what you mean by “room.” Room in this world? Yes, esp. in the United States. Room in Heaven? We as Catholics do not presume to say which individual people shall and shall not enter into the Presence of Jesus. We DO point out the objective truth on any given matter of faith and morals,but God alone judges each soul that stands before Him and He may dispense His Mercy as He will. For example, your vasectomy. You may not have known that it was a sin, you may have undergone it in innocent ignorance of the truth. You would not, therefore, be culpable before God, if that were the truth. That is not, however, the same as God giving an “olly, olly, oxenfree” on the question of artificial birth control and vasectomies. The Church must always proclaim the objective truth, while She extends mercy for the breaching of that truth.
Vasectomies can be forgiven, you know.
J
jam070406
Guest
You seem to be very caught up and defensive about birth control. I sense the Holy Spirit may be convicting you.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
I am sorry, I did not see this post.
The nature of truth excludes any possibility of “if it’s true for you, if it’s true for me.” Truth is simply true, error is simply error. Something is either true or it is not true. My consent to it or my dissent from it does not alter one iota its truth or falsity. Truth simply is. That’s sometimes hard for us Americans to grasp, raised in relative tolerance, where the government derives its authority from the consent of those governed. This paradigm, however, does not apply to truth.
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DelScorcho
Guest
Exactly… by what authority is the real question. And each religion has their own criteria for creating or updating church rules… I do not dispute that.
My whole point is that there is room for everyone at God’s table.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
DelScorcho, it sounds like you know that what you have done and are doing is immoral and are trying to justify your sin and get Catholics to bless you in your sin. Ain’t gonna happen.
Any form of birth control is wrong for a number of reasons, among which is that it divorces the marital act from its procreative end. It objects to and rejects life.
Divine Law comes to us from God through the Church. He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me and the one who sent me. (Luke 10:16)
Furthermore, we cannot tolerate a lie. Every religion contains a part of the truth, but only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of revealed truth. We acknowledge the truth in other religions, but we can’t sit idly by as they wallow in error. The Church ministers to them by proclaiming the truth once delivered by Christ Himself to the Apostles and faithfully handed down throughout the ages in the Catholic Church.
Any form of birth control is wrong for a number of reasons, among which is that it divorces the marital act from its procreative end. It objects to and rejects life.
Divine Law comes to us from God through the Church. He who hears you hears me and he who rejects you rejects me and the one who sent me. (Luke 10:16)
Furthermore, we cannot tolerate a lie. Every religion contains a part of the truth, but only the Catholic Church contains the fullness of revealed truth. We acknowledge the truth in other religions, but we can’t sit idly by as they wallow in error. The Church ministers to them by proclaiming the truth once delivered by Christ Himself to the Apostles and faithfully handed down throughout the ages in the Catholic Church.
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DelScorcho
Guest
God teaches personal responsibility and I believe I should exercise mine in not having more kids than I can deal with. That decision making process was also given to me by God.well plain and simple man, if you take control of whether or not you have children, you then take life into your own hands. Sayin really, “God i dont think i want anymore children so even if you want to give me some, i dont think i should have’em” And reall thats kinda just commen sense
What’s the difference between having a vasectomy and not having sex when it comes to making kids?
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
So, with respect, will you answer? By what authority do you say that artificial birth control and vasectomies are not sinful or that they are ok with God?
It’s God’s table, He’ll be the one doing the admitting, not me. I would not, however, say that there is room for everyone…just the ones He permits to sit down. And I am by no means certain beyond all doubt that I will be among them, but I pray by His Mercy to be so.
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
Nope. It’s that people use religion as a justification for their evil. If they didn’t have religion, they’d use a different excuse.
Think of it like this. God has made us for Himself, and our hearts are restless until they rest in Him. We have a deep desire for happiness, and one that cannot be fulfilled in this life. But, we want to be happy now. So why aren’t we happy? It can’t possibly be my fault, my sins, my evils that are the cause of it - after all, I’m perfect, I’m god and the center of the universe. It must be YOUR fault. Who is YOU? Well, we won’t blame our own family/clan/tribe - it must be those idiots in the next village, the next nation, those who aren’t US. They’re the reason for our rotten lot in life - if we kill them, we’ll be happy. And thus, people delude themselves into fighting others.
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DelScorcho
Guest
So you want me to follow a church rule, created by some unnamed man… without qualifying or questioning it?
J
JMJ_coder
Guest
I would suggest you read Humanae Vitae and the Theology of the Body for starters - they will answer most if not all of your questions on the subject.
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JKirkLVNV
Guest
Since I am a celibate, your cross is heavier than mine and I acknowledge that and I will remember you and your children in my prayers.
Having a vasectomy is mutilation of the body, the temple of the Holy Spirit, with the intent of thwarting what may be the will of God by preventing the engendering of children. It removes one of two essential components of the marital act, the procreative one. Abstinence is simply not engaging in sexual relations, for a season, and is permitted IN SCRIPTURE (Saint Paul). Even here, however, the Church has said that married couples may not use Natural Family Planning for selfish reasons.
God teaches personal responsibility for sin and for our obligations, one of which is our obligation not to sin against Him.
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DelScorcho
Guest
Fair enough… but to correct a couple statements, I do not feel my vasectomy is “immoral” (actually I’ve told people it is the best medical procedure I ever had), but you seem to. I also do not seek Catholics to bless me.
I simply don’t want to be Catholic and want to impress on you that your church rules do not apply to me… but apparently part of your mission is to try to convert everyone.
D
DelScorcho
Guest
I think this is a leaning process for our next existence.
C
ChristizkingAO7
Guest
because in not having a vasectomy, you have to make the choice not to have sex, by having such a proceedure you are trying to have sex without the opprotunity of having children, sex then becomes something just for pleasure, which is a sin in Gods eyes
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