My rule of faith

  • Thread starter Thread starter Nick_Jones
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Well, Nick, what other church WAS there in 390 A.D. when the written Bible was codified? The Orthodox and Catholics did not split until 1054 A.D.; the Protestant reformation did not occur until the early 16th century A.D.
I believe that in the first three to four centuries the early church was both heavily persecuted and rapidly expanding. I do not believe that the local churches recognized one branch as authoritative. But I could be wrong.
So obviously the people in the Catholic Church (the only church) who worked under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and came up with the Bible were the ones God trusted.
I agree with you that the bible was given to the church by God.
Whether you believe that somehow, somewhere things ‘went wrong’ (as many Protestants believe), you cannot change the historical fact that the people who were given the inspiration to codify the Bible, and who carried forth and taught from that Bible, in total unity for the next 650 years,
I don’t see any way for millions (or even thousands) of fallen human beings to be in total unity for two seconds much less 650 years!
 
As my authority on teaching, I hold to the scriptures alone.
I guess we would ask you WHY Scripture alone “must” be your authority.
I must accept the authority of the written word since it was given to the church for a purpose by God.
Catholics believe this also.
. . . But in the end I must realize that if my pastor teaches something that is blatently contrary to what is taught in the bible, I have to believe what God’s word teaches.
Catholics would agree. No dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church is contrary to Scripture. But Catholics understand use the term “Word of God” to encompass the entire “Verbum Dei” – which includes the dogmatic definitions of the Church in addition to Sacred Scripture. Many Catholics go so far as to say that Sacred Scripture is *materially sufficient *as a rule of faith although clearly, it is not formally sufficient. A good illustrative point of this is the definition of the Holy Trinity. Another is infant Baptism. Neither is fully delineated in Scripture, but both are discernible from Scripture.
 
I haven’t said that I believe sola scriptura means that I believe everything God has revealed to man in regards to the Christian Faith is contained in scripture alone. To me SS is a recognition of the sufficiency of scripture, and thus I’m not bound by teachings that are not taught in the bible.

I realize that the table of contents (list of the books) isn’t scripture, but I don’t see why that proves “sola scriptura” as a doctrine, false.
What the table of contents demonstrates is that the Holy Spirit operated through the Church to give us the canon. Nowhere Scripture is it claimed that Scripture alone is sufficient. There is ample evidence in the New Testament that Paul and Jesus both drew upon tradition in their teaching.

One of my favorite quotations on the canon is from Dr. R. C. Sproul, a card-carrying sola Scriptura/sola fide Presbyterian of great learning. His bottom line is: **For Protestants, the Bible is a fallible collection of infallible books, but for Catholics, the Bible is an infallible collection of infallible books.
 
If you have faith, everything holds together in a self-consistent whole leading to the conclusion that the Catholic Church is to be trusted, but if you do not have faith, then many things will point to a conclusion that you need to look elsewhere.
This conclusion (in favor of the CC) should be evident from history and from the harmony between church teaching and that of the bible. Faith is necessary, but Christianity is of God and as such, it is reasonable…and it can be defended by good evidence. Unfortunately, history needs to be interpreted too, for it is possible to cut and paste various quotes of the early fathers to suit one’s own point of view.

If Rome hadn’t evolved certain new doctrines that are not found in the bible (purgatory, the Immaculate Conception, the papacy, etc.) it would be much easier for me to believe that the CC is the one founded by Jesus.
 
As my authority on teaching, I hold to the scriptures alone. I must accept the authority of the written word since it was given to the church for a purpose by God. . .
It was given by God through the Church, Nick. I know you realize that it didn’t just come wafting down from heaven into the hands of individual believers. 😉 So what kind of authority would the Church have had to have had in order to identify what was or wasn’t to be recognized as writings true to the already-known (through Sacred Tradition) Self-Revelation of Christ for the spiritual building-up of the Body of Christ?
This doesn’t mean that I have infallible understanding of the bible and thus have no need of preachers who will attempt to shed more light on the teachings of the bible. I do need to be taught by those who are more knowledgable. But in the end I must realize that if my pastor teaches something that is blatently contrary to what is taught in the bible, I have to believe what God’s word teaches.
But how can you infallibly know that what your pastor teaches is in error? And how can you infallibly know that your correction of him is correct? As you’ve already stated, you don’t have an infallible understanding of Scripture, so why should you think that you can interpret it better than the Christian next to you who may have a different reading of a text than you?

These articles may help you:

bringyou.to/apologetics/a12.htm

bringyou.to/apologetics/a46.htm
 
What the table of contents demonstrates is that the Holy Spirit operated through the Church to give us the canon.
I agree.
Nowhere Scripture is it claimed that Scripture alone is sufficient.
Here, I disagree. I read 2 Tim. 15-16 and I see that all scripture is indeed sufficient for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
 
I agree.

Here, I disagree. I read 2 Tim. 15-16 and I see that all scripture is indeed sufficient for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
 
It was given by God through the Church, Nick. I know you realize that it didn’t just come wafting down from heaven into the hands of individual believers. 😉 So what kind of authority would the Church have had to have had in order to identify what was or wasn’t to be recognized as writings true to the already-known (through Sacred Tradition) Self-Revelation of Christ for the spiritual building-up of the Body of Christ?
Yes,I agree. Collectively, as a body (the body of Christ), the church has special authority in the world. She is the pillar and foundation of truth. But If the OT scriptures were correctly identified as the inspired word of God without the CC (before it existed) then it seems that God does have ways of revealing the canon to His sheep even without the CC.
But how can you infallibly know that what your pastor teaches is in error? And how can you infallibly know that your correction of him is correct? As you’ve already stated, you don’t have an infallible understanding of Scripture, so why should you think that you can interpret it better than the Christian next to you who may have a different reading of a text than you?
I’m not infallible, so I have to admit that everything I believe could be serious error. As I see it you and I have exactly the same problem.
 
Whether you believe that somehow, somewhere things ‘went wrong’ (as many Protestants believe),
As with all human undertakings, given enough time and enough room for disagreement, something inevitably does go wrong. But Jesus has founded His church on the unshakable foundation of Christ, who promised that “the gates of hell will not overcome it.” This is a promise that can be trusted. Christ’s church can indeed err, but not fatally so. The reason God gave the written word to the church is to give the church the means to reform her errors.
 
Hello and may I say this is a good question you put on the table here. Click on my signature line and read more about men that held the Sola scriptura belief you speak of. Then you may have some more questions. Bear in mind the stance the Church takes now in this matter has lightened up a bit, but you need to see the whole picture of how Sola Scriptura got started.
You may not like what you see, and for that I am sorry. But truth is worth the pain you may feel.
 
Hello and may I say this is a good question you put on the table here. Click on my signature line and read more about men that held the Sola scriptura belief you speak of. Then you may have some more questions. Bear in mind the stance the Church takes now in this matter has lightened up a bit, but you need to see the whole picture of how Sola Scriptura got started.
You may not like what you see, and for that I am sorry. But truth is worth the pain you may feel.
Hi Damascus,

I’ve begun reading from the link you have provided. Very interesting stuff. Although I have read only about one tenth of it thus far, I disagree with the author that the reformation had one discernable beginning date and one clear leader (M. Luther). The facts of history do not seem to lend themselves to this kind of simplicity. History is much more complicated and, unfortunately, incomplete. We humans really don’t record every important detail of history, much less agree on which items are important!
 
Hi Damascus,

I’ve begun reading from the link you have provided. Very interesting stuff. Although I have read only about one tenth of it thus far, I disagree with the author that the reformation had one discernable beginning date and one clear leader (M. Luther). The facts of history do not seem to lend themselves to this kind of simplicity. History is much more complicated and, unfortunately, incomplete. We humans really don’t record every important detail of history, much less agree on which items are important!
Thanks Nick for reading my signature line. Again, I apologize if it is not a cup of tea to read.

If you have more credible sources of information, or something I may not have read already on the issues you speak of, please post them so I can read them. I give you a big thumbs up for reading the link, and believe me when I say this- I dont shrug off reading anything someone may post here to dispute it.
I am very open minded about this kind of thing.
Thank you again, for asking these very important questions.
Until I see information to the contrary, I will rest my case.🙂
 
Well I think it pretty much comes down to this.

We should have never seperated in the first place.

I don’t think God meant for us to have 30,000 different interpretations of the bible.

Even if some of what the Catholic church does you don’t agree with, you should at least acknowledge that it is indeed the true Church.

At first I didn’t believe this, because I didn’t want to.

I wanted to believe that I was saved no matter what, and the Catholic Church was just some corrupted organization from the Dark Ages.

However after reading scripture and Apologetics if I were to not convert to Catholocism I would regret it and question it the rest of my life.
 
I haven’t said that I believe sola scriptura means that I believe everything God has revealed to man in regards to the Christian Faith is contained in scripture alone. To me SS is a recognition of the sufficiency of scripture, and thus I’m not bound by teachings that are not taught in the bible.

I realize that the table of contents (list of the books) isn’t scripture, but I don’t see why that proves “sola scriptura” as a doctrine, false.
That is self contradictory. You say that you are not bound to believe “teachings” that are not in Scripture, yet recognize the Canon as “a teaching”.

In other words you do believe a teaching that is not in Scripture- namely the teaching that tells you which books are Scripture.

So “I am not bound by teachings that are not taught in the Bible” is false since you ARE BOUND by the Canon of Scripture which is a teaching that IS NOT IN THE BIBLE.

You are trying to rid Sacred Tradition from Divine Revelation and that is impossible, can’t you see that?

Ken
 
As my authority on teaching, I hold to the scriptures alone.
Okay, except that’s not Scriptural. . .so, how do you resolve it, Scripturally speaking?
I must accept the authority of the written word since it was given to the church for a purpose by God.
Okay. No problem there from a Catholic perspective, which is precisely why the Church canonized Scripture.
This doesn’t mean that I have infallible understanding of the bible and thus have no need of preachers who will attempt to shed more light on the teachings of the bible.
So, then, you don’t actually believe in “scripture alone” as you recognize the God-given authority of pastors to teach. And, again, what about before we even had a Bible? What about the early Christians who didn’t have a 27 book bound New Testament? How did it work for them?
I do need to be taught by those who are more knowledgable.
But what is your measure of their authority? Does it only apply if what these “more knowledgable” people are teaching lines up with what you already believe? What if someone “more knowledgable” than you says there aren’t just 66 books in the Old Testament? What then?
But in the end I must realize that if my pastor teaches something that is blatently contrary to what is taught in the bible, I have to believe what God’s word teaches.
Like what? For instance, what if your pastor says “Communion is just a symbol.” Yet Jesus Christ tells us, "“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him.” (Jn 6:23-56).

Or again, back to the Old Testament canon. . .What if your pastor says “there are only 66 books in the Old Testament” and someone else. . .oh, like St. Augustine, for instance, says otherwise? The Bible doesn’t say how many books are in it, so who do you believe and why?
 
Here, I disagree. I read 2 Tim. 15-16 and I see that all scripture is indeed sufficient for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
This actually proves a very important point!!! I’m so glad you brought this up.

The version of Scripture that you chose says “sufficient,” yet there are at least 5 other translations that differ. Instead of “sufficient” they use the words “profitable” or “useful.” So, how do you choose? If Scripture is your final authority, how do you choose which translation of your final authority to believe? Seeing as how “sufficiency” and “usefulness” are two entirely different things. . .

The New American:
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness
King James:
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
NIV:
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness
Douay Rheims:
All scripture, inspired of God, is profitable to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice
The Message:
Every part of Scripture is God-breathed and useful one way or another—showing us truth, exposing our rebellion, correcting our mistakes, training us to live God’s way.
 
I agree.

Here, I disagree. I read 2 Tim. 15-16 and I see that all scripture is indeed sufficient for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness.
If you look carefully, Nick, you will see that verse 15 says (RSV):

All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, . . .

It does not say sufficient.

In an earlier post you mention doctrines that you believe are not in Scripture, but in fact, there is good scriptural support for them. Purgatory is particularly easy to defend – and easier to defend if one allows the Deuterocanonical books into evidence. It is, of course, revealed in the primary canon, although less graphically.

The scriptural grounds for the papacy are a slam-dunk.
 
There is nothing about 2 Timothy 3:16-17 that says Scripture is sufficient. In fact, it directly contradicts the notion that it is sufficient. In addition, if we do take these verses to indicate Scripture is sufficient, it opens up a whole host of other problems. Here is why.

The only arguement that can be made from these verse to say that Scripture is sufficient is to look to the Greek and to suggest that the word exartizo, which is translated occasionally in verse 17 to say that the man of God is sufficient, and if the Scriptures make him sufficient, they must themselves be sufficient.

However, even accepting that *exartizo *does mean completely sufficient in this case (which is by no means linguistically certain), it would not actually require that the Scriptures make the man of God thoroughly furnished in and of themselves. To understand this, consider a knight. One might say, ‘A sword, made by the greatest of smiths, is profitable for battle, defense, competition, and to slay the mightiest dragon, that the brave knight may be perfect, fully furnished unto every chivalrous work.’ It is obvious that even given the usage of the same strong phraseology applied to the Scriptures by Paul, the sword alone is not sufficient to make the knight fully furnished unto every chivalrous work. Given that the knight already possesses mail, armor, gauntlets, a helmet, and a mighty steed, the sword does make him fully furnished. However, it does this by completion, not by self-sufficiency. This comparison illustrates that the most this passage requires is that Scriptures make a thoroughly furnished when added to what is already possessed.

Further consideration reveals that this is in fact Paul’s explicit teaching on the matter. Specifically, his commendation of the Scriptures is to Timothy. The preceding verses point out that he already has Paul’s teachings, and the very command which directs him to the Scriptures does so given the presupposition that Timothy is already a man of God. In fact, Paul’s says that it is for the man of God that they are profitable; to be such a man is a prerequisite. This raises the question of what constitutes a man of God. If this passage teaches any form of Sola Scriptura, then knowing that one is a man of God is necessary according to the passage. Ultimately, the attempt to answer this question becomes an endless loop of circular reasoning which runs something as this: Scripture is sufficient to show who the man of God is, but one must be a man of God for Scripture to be sufficient, so he must look to Scripture to see if he is a man of God, but Scripture is not sufficient unless one is a man of God, so he must look to Scripture to see if he is, but he must be a man of God for Scripture to be sufficient, and so on and so on into eternity. Put in a perhaps less confusing way, if one is not a man of God, Scripture is insufficient to show him that he is not so he cannot know that he is not, while on the other hand, even one who is a man of God cannot know that he is because he first has to look to the Scriptures to determine that he is, which he cannot because he does not know whether he is a man of God or not.

Even ignoring this somewhat confusing difficulty, other details show that the passage would teach far too much if it indeed did teach Scriptural sufficiency. First, if it did teach sufficiency, it would mean that God’s grace is not required to make one perfect and thoroughly furnished unto all good works. All Christians recognize that God’s grace is necessary for any and all good works; this fact is so important that it was a key principle for the Protestant reformers. Given that the passage teaches Scripture fully furnishes unto all good works, it must do this by completion or else exclude even God’s grace as necessary for one who has the Scriptures. The instant one states that grace is necessary for good works, he accepts that something beyond Scripture is required and thus Scripture is insufficient of itself.
 
Second, the passage refers only to the Jewish Scriptures. If the passage does in fact teach Scripture as sufficient, then Timothy would have understood it to mean that the Jewish Scriptures were sufficient. Even though it does refer today to all the Scriptures available, whatever the passage teaches today it also taught to Timothy, and so to Timothy it referred to all the Scriptures he had available. IF this is not true, then somehow we have to believe that the Scriptures change meanings over time, which would contradict Scripture (as well as turning Christianity into a relativistic philosophy). Therefore, if it does in fact teach that whatever is understood to be Scripture is sufficient, then Timothy would have understood it to mean that the Jewish Scriptures were sufficient and would have had no need to follow Paul’s instructions to remember those things he learned from the apostles.

Paul, however, made it a point to tell Timothy to remember what he had learned and from who, and just as what the Scriptures teach today applied in Timothy’s day, so too does what they taught in his day apply today. This means that the command to remember what was learned and who it was learned from must be held by Christians today. Paul wrote a similar command to the Thessalonians, instructing them to “stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.” (2 Thessalonians 2:15) Just as is the case with his instruction to Timothy, Paul’s command to the Thessalonians is also given as an antidote for deception. The apostle is consistent in pairing his commendation to Scripture with a commendation to oral teachings, and is consistent in presenting them together as the means to avoid heresy. He seems to see the two as being somehow complimentary, in the same manner as the Catholic Church. Most importantly, there is no command in Scripture to cease holding to these traditions and to rely entirely on Scripture. If the Sola Scriptura was to be held during the normative condition of the Church, the doctrine would require that this statement itself be found in Scripture.

Third, other passages of the Scriptures make statements about things other than Scripture which are similar to the one in Second Timothy. The most notable of these is Ephesians 4:11-14:

And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

The word rendered here as ‘perfecting’ is katartizo, and just like *exartizo *it is derived from artios. If *artios *does mean sufficient, then so does katartizo. In fact, whereas the preposition *ex *used to form *exartizo *means can mean ‘highly,’ ‘heartily,’ ‘exceedingly,’ or ‘abundantly,’ the preposition *kata *used to form *katartizo *can mean ‘alone,’ ‘apart,’ or ‘uttermost.’ Thus, if 2 Timothy 3:16-17 teaches the sufficiency of Scripture for thoroughly furnishing unto all good works, then Ephesians 4:11-14 teaches that apostles, prophets, pastors, and teachers are sufficient, even sufficient alone, to make the saints thoroughly perfect for the work of ministry, of building up the body of Christ, of bringing unity of faith, and of bringing knowledge of the Son of God. Most importantly, it would teach that they are sufficient to avoid false doctrine and deceit. Ephesians 4 specifically mentions all those things that 2 Timothy 3 does and more. The passage in Second Timothy, the single strongest passage that can be found to teach Sola Scriptura, simply cannot teach that Scripture alone is sufficient; if it did, it would contradict Paul’s teaching in Ephesians 4.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top