My Sister is Mormon....

[dianaiad]

You can read it there dianaid. Who are the true Christians?

Well, according to this quote, the ‘true Christians’ are those who believe that Christ was born, had a body, died, and reclaimed His body from the grave (was resurrected) You read that too, right?

Yes, and I will repeat again for you. You are wrong.

What in the world are you talking about?

I am talking about this: If you are Catholic, and profess to be Catholic, then it would be extremely hypocritical to say that you believe one thing when you really believe another; if you find yourself doing that, you need to find a belief system that better matches your ideas about religious truth. Either that, or start agreeing with the doctrines of the church you claim to belong to.

I’m saying that if you are Catholic, of course you believe that your church teaches truth and all other churches are false to one degree or another.

I’m saying that people who belong to any church, no matter what it is, feel the same about their belief system, or else they are hypocrites.

If you believe Christianity is nothing more than a word, then indeed you are not Christian.

(grin) amazing.

And why in the world would we accept the Mormon definition of “Christian”?

I’m not the one attempting to kick YOU out of the fold, luv.

As usual, taken out of context. Is this something Mormon are born with or what?

you provided the context. if it was ‘taken out of’ that context, you were the one who did it, not me.

…and ad hominem insult noted.

His entire speech is about how the Christian Trinity is incorrect. And he bases his entire conclusion on MORMON ERROR. He cites nothing that a CHRISTIAN believes about God. Only what he would like the sheep to believe.

Which, apparently works because here you are, being a good believer of assertions that have absolute nothing to do with TRUTH.

Thanks for keeping it swell.

(laughing) Rebecca…you give me a quote that you claim is taken out of context, YOU are the one who did it, and then you ask if this is something that “Mormons are born with?”

Entertaining conversation we are having.

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well, according to this quote, the ‘true Christians’ are those who believe that Christ was born, had a body, died, and reclaimed His body from the grave (was resurrected) You read that too, right?

According to the entire article, true Christians are those who believe in the Mormon godhead.

Context? I did provide the link to the entire speech.

I am talking about this: If you are Catholic, and profess to be Catholic, then it would be extremely hypocritical to say that you believe one thing when you really believe another; if you find yourself doing that, you need to find a belief system that better matches your ideas about religious truth. Either that, or start agreeing with the doctrines of the church you claim to belong to.

Exactly. My beliefs are, a Christian believes certain things, about the God we worship especially.

I’m saying that if you are Catholic, of course you believe that your church teaches truth and all other churches are false to one degree or another.

I’m saying that people who belong to any church, no matter what it is, feel the same about their belief system, or else they are hypocrites.

I agree.

(grin) amazing.

??

I’m not the one attempting to kick YOU out of the fold, luv.

I’m not your luv. You aren’t kicked out of the fold. You are welcome and wanted. Just as you have requirments to be baptized a Mormon, so their are requirements to be baptized as a Christian. One is, a belief of the doctrine of the Trinity.

If you are unwilling to accept this truth, it is you who are keeping yourself from all God has to offer you. Not the Church. And not any other Christian.

But of course you know this.

you provided the context. if it was ‘taken out of’ that context, you were the one who did it, not me.

I gave you the LINK so you can click on it and READ it. It is against forum rules to post entire large articles. Next time, I’ll say, please read this link. And then you guess which part is relevant to what we are talking about.

I see you ignored anything of substance.

…and ad hominem insult noted.

I see that I need to put smilies and winking emoticons. It is one of the endearing aspects of many Mormons. Not an insult.

 

[dianaballein]

Obviously well before your time, luv;

A TV program called “leave it to Beaver,” where June Cleaver, mom and housewife, always wore pearls and high heels no matter what she was doing; scrubbing the floor, cooking, telling Ward Cleaver what an idiot he was (nicely, of course) …

It was a slam.

Oh I get it now. Mrs. Cleaver from Leave it to Beaver. LOL Sorry. Actually, that was right smack dab in the middle of my time. lol I am not a youngin’

It was a slam. Sorry Dianaiad…I wish we would ALL not do that and just have disagreements without name calling.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m not your luv. You aren’t kicked out of the fold. You are welcome and wanted. Just as you have requirments to be baptized a Mormon, so their are requirements to be baptized as a Christian. One is, a belief of the doctrine of the Trinity.

No. There are requirements to be baptized as a CATHOLIC, which is a subset of Christianity. Just as Protestants are a subset of Christianity. Just as we are.

…and that is what the dictionary says about the definition, and that is what we believe about the definition. So, I am not demanding that you cease calling yourself a Christian simply because I don’t agree with everything you believe. However, you are demanding that of me.

And that is the crux of the whole problem.

 

[RebeccaJ]

No. There are requirements to be baptized as a CATHOLIC, which is a subset of Christianity. Just as Protestants are a subset of Christianity. Just as we are.

…and that is what the dictionary says about the definition, and that is what we believe about the definition. So, I am not demanding that you cease calling yourself a Christian simply because I don’t agree with everything you believe. However, you are demanding that of me.

And that is the crux of the whole problem.

sigh

For the record, I think June Cleaver rocks.

 

[dianaiad]

Oh I get it now. Mrs. Cleaver from Leave it to Beaver. LOL Sorry. Actually, that was right smack dab in the middle of my time. lol I am not a youngin’

It was a slam. Sorry Dianaiad…I wish we would ALL not do that and just have disagreements without name calling.

You remember 'Leave it to Beaver?"

Just how ‘not a youngin’ are you??

Oh, dear…I’m sorry. That wasn’t polite.
Let me put this another way…I’m 59. are we contemporaries?

(grin)

 

[dianaballein]

You remember 'Leave it to Beaver?"

Just how ‘not a youngin’ are you??

Oh, dear…I’m sorry. That wasn’t polite.
Let me put this another way…I’m 59. are we contemporaries?

(grin)

Close. Sort of. I am 43 but my sister is 53 and I was raised by older parents soooooooo let’s just say I know way more about things that are a tad bit older than I am than most people my age.

 

[zaffiroborant]

That’s a rather odd thing to say when the quote I came back with was a rather nasty anti-Catholic statement from a Mormon–that the moderators shut down.

You said you went back a year on this board you spent an hour on the MADB. If you spent some time there you would see some more of the same kind of comments that brought the moderators. Not all of these threads are shut down. And like I said the most bilious stuff is directed at Evangelical Christianity.

 

[mfbukowski]

I only hesitate because you hopelessly Mormonize everything. And you seem mighty eager to Mormonize this one.

I never said there were exact parallels to Coptic, I said CATHOLIC. Coptics are catholic (little ‘c’). We’re catholic. There are lots of catholics. All who anoint at confirmation. All who either require, or optionally, anoint the senses.

Have you read William Morgan’s “The Mysteries of Freemasonry”. It is here.

The person being initiated knelt in front of the Mason altar and was anointed with oil on the head, eyes, mouth, heart, right tip of ear, hand and foot. Which parallels the catholic practice of anointing the senses. (Except foot, however, catholics can, and do, anoint the foot as well as the senses.)

This was immediately followed by giving him bread and wine.

There are other catholic parallels, more than a few. If you put your Catholic school boy memories on, I’m sure you’ll see them. You will also recognize the things that Mormonism took from Freemasonry.

This is very like Catholic confirmation which I recall was performed only by bishops in my day. I believe that has been changed. I was also ritually “struck” lightly on the cheek to symbolize that I was now a “soldier of Christ” and willing to withstand blows and persecution for my faith. Do they still do that?

What is relevant here is that the only masonic ceremony you could find which includes anointing is very like the Roman catholic confirmation ceremony and not at all like the Mormon one; but the Mormon one is like the coptic orthodox one.

It seems clear that the Masons copied the Roman Catholic ceremony, and that both the Mormon and the Coptic ceremony come from the same source, though they are different.

There is no way that the Mormon ceremony was copied from the Masonic. The Mormon ceremony is much much longer and involved.

It’s like saying an 18 wheeler was copied from a Volkswagen beetle. Yes the both drive across the road under their own power on wheels. That’s about it.

As far as “Mormonizing everything”, I just see things as they are. The truth is the truth. I really am a Mormon you know.

 

[mfbukowski]

But I DID find this on MADB (and thank you for sending me there, as annoying as I found it to have to register.)

There was this thread; a very interesting one discussing Catholicism, Protestantism and Christianity. The dividing line was as I have always found it everywhere else; the Catholics and Protestants were telling us that we are not either Christian, and the Mormons were saying wait…you are coming in HERE, to an LDS discussion board, scolding us because we dare to claim to be Christians?

The interesting thing I saw was the level of scholarship involved, on the part of all sides. Everybody was pulling up references, and the banter was friendly even between those who were on polar opposite positions. The references pulled up by the Mormons were sometimes embarrassing to the Mormons. The references pulled up by the Catholics were sometimes embarrassing to them. It was wild, it was woolly…and it was full of some great information.

Then this appeared, from a Mormon.

“I also take a broader view of the Church of the Devil— but my experiences in the “Holy” Catholic Church would be enough to convince me, independent of anything else, that the RCC is truly an institute of Satan. Don’t pull what you’re trying to pull on me here.”

I thought, Oh, great googly moogly, I have only seen this one time, ever before…I’m going to have to apologize to Rebecca and Diana and everybody else in the whole world over THIS one…

And I expected all hellfire and brimstone to break loose.

Instead, I saw this from the moderator of MADB:

“Posts like this create barriers in dialogue, I suggest a better approach and refraining from using such extreme hyperbole again. Thread closed.”

Well, that was that. It seems that the folks on the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board don’t take kindly to such stuff, if a Mormon posts it.

I kept looking to see if there were any other examples of this sort of thing…and there were. I found a couple of just such hyperbolic posts, by non-Mormons. The moderators let those threads continue and let the Mormons handle it, which they did with a minimum of fuss.

I don’t know what this man’s experience was with the RCC church, and I apologize for his rhetoric.

I wasn’t able to find anything else even remotely like an attack on a non-Mormon faith, however.

You sound like you are more familiar with the board than I am. Perhaps you can find more?

Diana

I have found MADB to be very much more civilized than this board. Sure people get emotional, but the moderaters usually pull it back. It is mostly all respectful discussion. And I am much nicer there too I will have to work on that.

 

[RebeccaJ]

This is very like Catholic confirmation which I recall was performed only by bishops in my day. I believe that has been changed. I was also ritually “struck” lightly on the cheek to symbolize that I was now a “soldier of Christ” and willing to withstand blows and persecution for my faith. Do they still do that?

Still performed by the bishop, ordinarily, he can give permission (there is a more official term) for a priest to perform the confirmation. The bishop who confirmed me spent weeks on the road, after Easter, traveling through UT, to perform confirmations.

No face slaps any longer. But other Catholics have told me the same.

What is relevant here is that the only masonic ceremony you could find which includes anointing is very like the Roman catholic confirmation ceremony and not at all like the Mormon one; but the Mormon one is like the coptic orthodox one.

There are many sites that document the similarities of the Masonic ritual to the Mormon ritual. The original, before they both were changed. Here is one site. It discusses in detail both the secret Mason ritual and the secret Mormon ritual.

 

[mfbukowski]

You mormons are demanding. I want, make it so. Google lds.org. Or ask bukowski, I believe he has used it before.

We are demanding because you make so much stuff up.

CFR on this one too! I have unfortnately said things here I shouldn’t have but I have never ever said anything like “Catholics are satanic” or the church of the devil, or the great abominable church or anything like that. I know I haven’t because I don’t believe that stuff for a moment. I just object to doctrines that I can’t understand, and sometimes (when you all make me ) my mouth gets a little out of control. But that is your fault.

Joking! Joking! Remain calm.

 

[saralong]

and I have always wondered why they do not have any crosses in their churches. Does anyone know why this is?

Mormons or members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints don’t have crosses because they focus more on that fact that he was ressurrected three days later and lives still today. They believe Christ to be the head of their church today and that he leads and guides it through a prophets just as He did in earlier dispensations. I guess one way you could look at it is for example my father died in a horrible accident. I can still see the horrible images in my mind today, but I don’t put up a picture in my home of what he looked like in that accident, instead I have wonderful pictures of him with my family. Don’t get the wrong idea that mormons don’t recognize that great sacrifice that Christ paid for all man kind on the cross because they do. They also recognize the sacrifice he paid for all man kind in the garden of gethsemane the night before and actually look at that as probably being harder if not just as hard as the crucifixion.

I think you would be surprize how open mormons are I got this info from my neighbor.

 

[RebeccaJ]

We are demanding because you make so much stuff up.

CFR on this one too! I have unfortnately said things here I shouldn’t have but I have never ever said anything like “Catholics are satanic” or the church of the devil, or the great abominable church or anything like that. I know I haven’t because I don’t believe that stuff for a moment. I just object to doctrines that I can’t understand, and sometimes (when you all make me ) my mouth gets a little out of control. But that is your fault.

Joking! Joking! Remain calm.

I never said you have. But you have used the “true christian” thing.

And you sure attribute a lot to me that I never said, like in this post. I say one, you say I said 5 million 4 hundred thousand and fifty-one.

I don’t make stuff up. Everything you demanded you got, spoiled as you are.

 

[dianaiad]

Close. Sort of. I am 43 but my sister is 53 and I was raised by older parents soooooooo let’s just say I know way more about things that are a tad bit older than I am than most people my age.

Dang.

It is so depressing to look at someone who is forty three and think “this younger generation…”

…and in fact, remember that a friend of mine, who is my age, has a daughter yours.

'scuse me.

I need chocolate.

 

[mfbukowski]

Here we go with the Jesus was a brother of Satan criticism again. Non-Mormons pull that out of the air to make Mormons sound bad and they use it without any context or real understanding of what the Mormons believe regarding that. They don’t try to explain the Mormon belief in pre-existence which makes the whole issue a lot clearer.

Mormons don’t believe that angels are a separate creature from humans as traditional Christianity does. Everyone with a spirit is a child of God and Mormons believe these spirits were created prior to our conception in the womb. It was a requirement to have to be born in the pre-existence as a spirit to prepare to come to earth. These spirits were created by God out of intelligence. So all of us existed from all eternity as intelligence, went through a spiritual birth to get ready to come to earth and then were born physically. The Father’s plan was that Jesus would come to earth as His Only Begotten Son, be born of a virgin, pay for our sins and then rise from the dead to bring the resurrection to everyone. Satan and his followers rebelled against the Father and Jesus and are denied the opportunity to ever gain a physical body. This entire belief doesn’t deny anything about the Godhead of Jesus. In fact these beliefs were first held in the early 1830s when the Mormons still accepted a very traditional view of the Trinity before Joseph Smith had said anything about God having a father, etc. Essentially, the traditional Mormon belief is that Satan rebelled against the plan of the Godhead which included Christ.

I’m a Catholic convert from Mormonism, but the distortion of the Mormon doctrine by many non-Mormons of the relationship between Christ and Satan is appalling. If my brother was a mass murderer it would say nothing about me. The early Mormon doctrine was that Christ had always been God prior to receiving a physical spirit. Mormons believe spirits are made of what can best be described as spiritual matter. Their understanding of intelligence is closest to what Catholics would call pure spirit. There are some Mormons who would still say that Christ had always been God as an intelligence. It wasn’t until the King Follet sermon that many strange Mormon beliefs developed regarding the Godhead. I look forward to the day when Mormons will get back to a traditional understanding of the Trinity – I don’t really think it would be a very huge jump for them to do so. They are closer to traditional Christianity than many of us want to admit, but until they get rid of the King Follet beliefs they won’t ever be fully accepted.

Gotta say it: Thanks for your fairness. I think you are a sincere seeker and I wish you well.

 

[mfbukowski]

As a kid I was told that ‘Puritans’ were people that wanted to purify the Church of England from anything Catholic. I thought, ‘At what point is so much removed that they are no long Christian?’ I didn’t have an answer then but….

I now believe it is the rejection of who God is; the trinity. It also seems to me that the rejection of who Christ is can be symbolized by the rejection of the cross. As an outsider looking in, I also think it happened at the King Follet discourse

I am fascinated by this because the King Follet discourse is not doctrinal. It is not canonized scripture, and is therefore not doctrinal. It is a speculative discussion of what might have been. I have wondered what Catholics believe about why God made us, and what he was doing floating around for eternity before he created us. All the King Follett discourse is, is a speculation on what God was doing “before” he created the world. It is a speculative answer to a question Catholics don’t even ask or think about. How can you be a thinking person and not ask that question? It’s the old “why is there something rather than nothing?” King Follett fills that gap. But it is not doctrine. I don’t know why everybody gets so hung up on this. I know I will get a lot of standard replies, but please think it through before you respond reflexively about how rotten Mormons are.

 

[mfbukowski]

cultwatch.com/mormon.html

And Also.
The Bible v.s. the Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/16

And DNA v.s. The Book of Mormon
perishnot.com/node/23

This cult is so like witch craft. I has read a website that had shown the various symbols which were said to be of witchcraft origin(or so I was told) ,and none of those were of biblical origin.It just stunning what garbs are employed by the enemy . And may have been fooled.

You has has you? Wow. You should believe everything you are told. It is a sign of intelligence. Put on some sharp garbs and check it out dude

 

[mfbukowski]

I’m still chuckling about the Mrs. Beaver reference. LOL Who is Mrs. Beaver???

Wow. I feel old.

 

[Stephen168]

I am fascinated by this because the King Follet discourse is not doctrinal. It is not canonized scripture, and is therefore not doctrinal.

So you are saying Mormons don’t believe a word of it and never have?