My Sister is Mormon....

[dianaballein]

there is a huge problem with this analogy. JFK didn’t rise from the dead in fulfillment of his own prophecy. if he had you might very well see the rifle as a symbol of triumph.

St. Paul said in his first letter to the corinthians:

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

so i ask who believes the cross is foolish?

Not I! AMEN!!!

 

[dianaiad]

Comparing the Cross that Jesus died on to the rifle that killed Kennedy is ridiculous. The cross did not kill Jesus. The people who put him up on the cross did.

Well, using that logic, one could say that the rifle did not kill Kennedy, Oswald did. I have to wonder: if the Romans had whipped Him to death (they did that sort of thing too…) would Christians now be wearing little leather whips around their necks?

The nails driven into him…the sword in his side…his entire body weight suspended…that killed him. Not the cross itself.

OK, and the massive loss of blood and sudden absence of brain matter killed Kennedy, not the bullet itself…

The cross does not represent the death of Jesus for me…it represents the birth of my salvation, and the tremendous love God had for me in taking the life of his Son.

Then that is what it represents to you…and that’s fine. The question, however, isn’t about what it represents to you. It was about why MORMONS do not wear, or display, the cross. This means that the question is about what it represents to US. Symbols vary in meaning according to who is using them. That it means one thing to me, and another to you, invalidates neither meaning. I am not, in other words, condemning or criticizing you for your reverence for the cross; I’m simply explaining why I don’t think of it in the same way you do.

When Jesus returns, he will not be looking at the cross necklace I wear to honor him. He will be looking at all of the hearts who love him, honor him and who are ready to be taken Home.

By the same token, then, He will not be worried about those who, greeting Him with love and honor, are NOT wearing crosses, will He?

Diana

 

[twosweetgirls]

I’d have said the cross means nothing to Mormons. They place a far greater importance on the all-seeing eye, the square and compass, the sunstone and the pentagram. You can easily see those on any Mormon Temple, but not one single solitary cross.

I’d be interested to hear what your sister says is the meaning behind their Temple symbols.

 

[dianaiad]

there is a huge problem with this analogy. JFK didn’t rise from the dead in fulfillment of his own prophecy. if he had you might very well see the rifle as a symbol of triumph.

St. Paul said in his first letter to the corinthians:

For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God

so i ask who believes the cross is foolish?

Nobody I know believes it is foolish. The question was about why Mormons do not wear or display it. To us, the cross is the instrument of His death; He didn’t leave the cross of His own volition; He had to be removed from it. If we are going to use something to symbolize His resurrection and triumph, perhaps a better item would be–an empty grave. Or a rolled away stone, or empty winding clothes.

It doesn’t much matter. To us, as Pres. Hinckley stated, the symbol of His triumph is His resurrection and His promise and Life in OUR lives. As Catholics, I believe that you might understand this more than the “name it and claim it” group does.

I understand that many Christians wear the cross as a reminder to themselves and to others of their beliefs; it’s an anchor, as well as a symbol.When it works, that’s a very good thing. However, I think that, especially recently, it has come to be trivialized; it is worn as mere jewelry; bling. Because it is worn so casually, its impact is diluted.

Trust me, when I see a cross, or think about it, it’s impact is not diluted. I am instantly and forcibly reminded of His death and His sacrifice for us. It’s a gut twisting wrench. When I see the scriptures about how we are to ‘take up’ our own crosses, it is a very forcible reminder of what we are to do.

So perhaps that’s another reason why we do not wear it, or display it; we respect it too much.

Diana

 

[dianaballein]

Nobody I know believes it is foolish. The question was about why Mormons do not wear or display it. To us, the cross is the instrument of His death; He didn’t leave the cross of His own volition; He had to be removed from it. If we are going to use something to symbolize His resurrection and triumph, perhaps a better item would be–an empty grave. Or a rolled away stone, or empty winding clothes.

It doesn’t much matter. To us, as Pres. Hinckley stated, the symbol of His triumph is His resurrection and His promise and Life in OUR lives. As Catholics, I believe that you might understand this more than the “name it and claim it” group does.

I understand that many Christians wear the cross as a reminder to themselves and to others of their beliefs; it’s an anchor, as well as a symbol.When it works, that’s a very good thing. However, I think that, especially recently, it has come to be trivialized; it is worn as mere jewelry; bling. Because it is worn so casually, its impact is diluted.

Trust me, when I see a cross, or think about it, it’s impact is not diluted. I am instantly and forcibly reminded of His death and His sacrifice for us. It’s a gut twisting wrench. When I see the scriptures about how we are to ‘take up’ our own crosses, it is a very forcible reminder of what we are to do.

So perhaps that’s another reason why we do not wear it, or display it; we respect it too much.

Diana

You seem to be very educated on Mormonism. So my sister was married in the Temple and had 5 children. Her husband died and left her a widow. She remarried a widower with 3 children, but not in the Temple…at their local Ward (Parish to us). When she was “sealed” in the Temple to her first husband, she was given her “celestial name” and it was given to her and her spouse only…and from what I understand he will use this name to usher her into heaven. So this begs the question…does her marriage to #2 mean nothing as far as heaven goes? Is the first wife of her new husband just sitting around on some cloud waiting for him to die so she can enter heaven? This is all very confusing since I was under the knowledge that our Lord ushers us into heaven.

 

[dianaiad]

I’d have said the cross means nothing to Mormons. They place a far greater importance on the all-seeing eye, the square and compass, the sunstone and the pentagram. You can easily see those on any Mormon Temple, but not one single solitary cross.

I’d be interested to hear what your sister says is the meaning behind their Temple symbols.

You are quite right. Those symbols are on the Temples. They have specific meanings to us…and some have linked them to the Masonic use of some of the same symbols.

If you wish to belittle and criticize us for our use of them, or for the lack of a display of a cross, you aren’t doing anything new.

Be assured, however, that any snide remarks about my lack of cross adornment will not be answered by equally snide remarks about body piercing ornaments featuring crosses.

(thinking about what I just wrote…) Make that, any MORE equally snide remarks about body piercing ornaments featuring crosses.

Diana

 

[dianaiad]

You seem to be very educated on Mormonism. So my sister was married in the Temple and had 5 children. Her husband died and left her a widow.

She and I have a great deal in common–right down to the number of children!

She remarried a widower with 3 children, but not in the Temple…at their local Ward (Parish to us).

Well, except that. I figure my chances of getting married again are approximately the same as being struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark…

When she was “sealed” in the Temple to her first husband, she was given her “celestial name” and it was given to her and her spouse only…and from what I understand he will use this name to usher her into heaven So this begs the question…does her marriage to #2 mean nothing as far as heaven goes? Is the first wife of her new husband just sitting around on some cloud waiting for him to die so she can enter heaven? This is all very confusing since I was under the knowledge that our Lord ushers us into heaven.

Ah, I see. This is an ambush/trick question. Gotcha. Well, I"ve been ambushed by far ruder people.

First, let me ask you a question: when you are married in a Catholic ceremony, don’t your wedding vows read “until death do you part?” (or, 'as long as you both shall live" or something?) Well, when your sister married her second husband, so did theirs. So their marriage is precisely like the marriages that you have–that anybody has; until death do they part. So no, as far as ‘heaven’ is concerned, that marriage means nothing more than yours does.

Nothing less, either.

While I will not discuss what happens in the Temple with you or anybody else outside Temple walls (and neither will any other Temple worthy Mormon) I will say this: her first marriage was 'for time and all eternity." Which means that her first marriage will last, if they be worthy, forever. It will be her first husband and she who will be together, we believe. Her second husband is well aware of that, and is well aware that according to our beliefs, he will be with his first wife.

They will enter the Celestial Kingdom together.

I hope this answers your question. I will not discuss the Temple ceremony in any fashion with you, except to mention that it is incredibly rich in symbolism and metaphor, and to take such things as literally as you seem to be doing in your post is to miss a large part of the point.

Yours,
Diana

 

[dianaiad]

…an aversion to Masons or an aversion to conspiracy theories?

Lessee…it’s a long list; few things are as packed with symbols as an LDS Temple. However, let’s examine the grand daddy: the Salt Lake Temple:

Earth stones; symbolize different portions of the globe, with the gospel ‘rolling through’ the entire world.

moon stones: represent the moon in all its phases–we think the architect was thinking “terrestrial kingdom”

sun stones: representing the sun’s face, with 52 points, copied from the Nauvoo temple…represents the celestial kingdom, or heaven. I haven’t a clue why 52 points. Must mean something, but you’ve got me.

star stones…represent, well…stars. the telestial kingdom. (these are the famous pentagrams…which are used because of the number of points; five–which has a great deal of symbolic meaning for a whole bunch of people, including masons, and architects; the golden section and all that—since architects and masons (little ‘m’) had a lot of say in what went on there, it’s understandable.

Clasped hands: brotherhood, fellowship and brotherly love.

Inscription “Holiness to the Lord” meaning, well, that.

the Big Dipper (Ursa Major), used to navigate on the sea and on land, intended to remind people of the true way…through Christ; if you are lost, the way may be found.

cloud stones: representing the light of knowledge piercing the dark clouds of superstition and error.

single spire stones, representing flaming torches.

keystones at windows with the inscriptions: I am Alpha and Omega"

One 'record stone" that contains a sort of ‘time capsule’ with records and such in it.

Another ‘record stone’ just under the statue of Moroni, that holds music and other theological works. I think we are preparing for archeologists.

Oh, and of course, there’s the statue of the angel Moroni. He’s there, complete with his long horn, to let us know that he actually had something to blow his horn about.

Diana

Hey.

You asked.

 

[twosweetgirls]

You are quite right. Those symbols are on the Temples. They have specific meanings to us…and some have linked them to the Masonic use of some of the same symbols.

If you wish to belittle and criticize us for our use of them, or for the lack of a display of a cross, you aren’t doing anything new.

Be assured, however, that any snide remarks about my lack of cross adornment will not be answered by equally snide remarks about body piercing ornaments featuring crosses.

(thinking about what I just wrote…) Make that, any MORE equally snide remarks about body piercing ornaments featuring crosses.

Diana

No, no–no belittling or criticism meant at all. I was just stating what I thought was obvious. No harm intended at all.

 

[ricko]

You’re wrong. A cross is a cross, a swastika is a swastika. This like like saying an “S” is not an “S”. You can use an “S” in “bad words” or “good words” but an s is still an s.

How can the christian cross be unique? Two lines crossing eachother can hardly be unique. What it stands for, the meaning we give it, is another story.

Thank you for pointing out that I am wrong. Actually I’m not. But on the other hand you’re right…a cross is a cross and so on as you have said. However you missed the most important thing about the cross even though you brought it up in your last statement. It is no longer just a cross, the thing that makes it unique is it’s a CHRISTIAN cross. It has its origin on Calvary.

 

[dianaballein]

She and I have a great deal in common–right down to the number of children!

Well, except that. I figure my chances of getting married again are approximately the same as being struck by lightning while being eaten by a shark…

Ah, I see. This is an ambush/trick question. Gotcha. Well, I"ve been ambushed by far ruder people.

First, let me ask you a question: when you are married in a Catholic ceremony, don’t your wedding vows read “until death do you part?” (or, 'as long as you both shall live" or something?) Well, when your sister married her second husband, so did theirs. So their marriage is precisely like the marriages that you have–that anybody has; until death do they part. So no, as far as ‘heaven’ is concerned, that marriage means nothing more than yours does.

Nothing less, either.

While I will not discuss what happens in the Temple with you or anybody else outside Temple walls (and neither will any other Temple worthy Mormon) I will say this: her first marriage was 'for time and all eternity." Which means that her first marriage will last, if they be worthy, forever. It will be her first husband and she who will be together, we believe. Her second husband is well aware of that, and is well aware that according to our beliefs, he will be with his first wife.

They will enter the Celestial Kingdom together.

I hope this answers your question. I will not discuss the Temple ceremony in any fashion with you, except to mention that it is incredibly rich in symbolism and metaphor, and to take such things as literally as you seem to be doing in your post is to miss a large part of the point.

Yours,
Diana

No worries, Diana. I appreciate the feedback, sincerely. I already know the full Temple ceremony from a friend who was born and raised Mormon and then converted to Catholicism. It was actually very fascinating.

 

[William_M]

dianaballein OP

Just curious about a couple things:

Why is your daughter preparing to get baptized? Catholics use infant baptism.

If you have a friend who converted from LDS to Catholic, and told you of the temple ceremony, then why didn’t you just ask her why we do not have the cross on or in our meetinghouses and temples, instead of asking here?

 

[William_M]

Why do Protestants use a plain cross and Catholics a crucifix–why the difference?

Is it a theological difference?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why do Protestants use a plain cross and Catholics a crucifix–why the difference?

Is it a theological difference?

Catholics use both.

 

[RebeccaJ]

To the OP…I think it should be clarified that not all Mormons reject the wearing of a cross. I have met a few who do wear a cross, all were converts to Mormonism from Christianity, or a gift given to them by a Christian.

It is not a Mormon doctrine to reject the usage of the cross as a symbol of their belief. It is more of a tradition.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So no, as far as ‘heaven’ is concerned, that marriage means nothing more than yours does.

Makes me wonder, what it is you think we believe.

 

[dianaiad]

No worries, Diana. I appreciate the feedback, sincerely. I already know the full Temple ceremony from a friend who was born and raised Mormon and then converted to Catholicism. It was actually very fascinating.

There are plenty of places to go find the Temple ceremony script; some of them even current, I imagine. I’d have to imagine, because I’d never go look. I get my information about it’s availability third hand, y’see.

It is simply that I have promised not to discuss things that are considered extremely sacred. I would keep that promise even if I left the church–because even if I then didn’t believe it was sacred to ME, I would remember that it is sacred to others.

I understand that others don’t feel the same way about it, but…well, maybe I’m a little weird, even for a Mormon.

 

[RebeccaJ]

There are plenty of places to go find the Temple ceremony script; some of them even current, I imagine. I’d have to imagine, because I’d never go look. I get my information about it’s availability third hand, y’see.

It is simply that I have promised not to discuss things that are considered extremely sacred. I would keep that promise even if I left the church–because even if I then didn’t believe it was sacred to ME, I would remember that it is sacred to others.

I understand that others don’t feel the same way about it, but…well, maybe I’m a little weird, even for a Mormon.

Someone recorded the entire ceremony, audio only. As in, snuck an audio recording device into a temple. It is on youtube.

 

[dianaiad]

Makes me wonder, what it is you think we believe.

OK, perhaps I’m wrong about this. Do your marriage ceremonies allow for the continuation of that state after one of the spouses dies?

Are they still married to one another? As far as I am aware, the CoJCoLDS is about the only group that practices marriage for ‘time and all eternity,’ that is, a marriage that is still valid after the death of one or both spouses. Am I incorrect about your beliefs in this matter?

 

[RebeccaJ]

OK, perhaps I’m wrong about this. Do your marriage ceremonies allow for the continuation of that state after one of the spouses dies?

Are they still married to one another? As far as I am aware, the CoJCoLDS is about the only group that practices marriage for ‘time and all eternity,’ that is, a marriage that is still valid after the death of one or both spouses. Am I incorrect about your beliefs in this matter?

No, we believe Christ when he said we are neither married or given in marriage in heaven.

What I meant was, you said our marriage ceremony means “nothing” or nothing more “until death do you part”.

It means more to us than that.