My Sister is Mormon....

[mfbukowski]

All religions both face such challenges, and issue them. Catholics have faced intense persecution, and still do in many places.

So do Mormons. I’m not going to downplay the problems Catholics face in India or China.

As for me, on my own mission I was stoned (with real rocks) and shot at. Does that count?

My son was deliberately hit by a car.

 

[RebeccaJ]

So you were Mormon, and now are catholic and your daughter is agnostic. Does that bother you? What is the catholic position on agnostics? Do they go to heaven?

I raised her as an atheist. She is grown up and says she is agnostic. She is enamored of Buddhism but doesn’t practice any religion.

Bother me? I believed as an atheist that religion and God were something to protect my daughter from. And I did, fiercely, like it was the doors of hell itself. I did a good job.

The Catholic position is that people are judged on what they know and understand. The same for her agnosticism as it is for Mormonism. I trust in God’s Mercy and pray for her.

 

[majick275]

Some masons wear crosses; does this make the cross a Mason symbol? Our symbols are not masonic. The masons use symbols that are ancient, our symbols are ancient, and some are the same. They don’t mean the same things.

That is like saying we must all speak Latin because we use the Roman alphabet.

i am trying not to laugh. the masons (who didn’t exist unitl long after the cross) introduced JS to these symbols and if you read the literature of both you see they assign the same meanings. you DON’T see early christians or jews with these symbols and meanings.

 

[majick275]

Ask them. They’ll tell you–or more likely, they’ll give you a funny look and tell you where to put your question.

Which is also an answer, since someone who respects the cross they wear would give you the answer you hope they do.

Me…I teach Special Ed in a high risk high school I see a LOT of crosses–on Bloods and Crips and any number of other gangbangers. None of 'em wear it because they are honoring Christ in their lives.

and they always tell you their true thoughts?

none? you sure? how? and in any case, if juvenile delinquets in utah have pics of JS in their room or a BoM in their car that somehow tarnishes those things?

 

[majick275]

This post was about joining Christianity. Are you saying that christianity is a cult?

the post was about seeing the light and joining Christianity and then sharing the truth with others. the implication was that this is related to leaving mormonism. so once one sees the light about mormonism and becomes a christian they have an obligation to warn others.

 

[Stephen168]

i am trying not to laugh. the masons (who didn’t exist unitl long after the cross) introduced JS to these symbols and if you read the literature of both you see they assign the same meanings. you DON’T see early christians or jews with these symbols and meanings.

I’ve never been a mormon or a mason but I was amused by the word ‘ancient.’ Freemasonry is twice as old as Mormonism, so maybe to a Mormon the symbols are ancient.

 

[dianaiad]

yes, exactly. people who have been deceived by a scam or a cult and manage to find their way to the truth would naturally feel obligated to share with others in the hopes of helping them to escape/avoid the deception and find the one true god.

Well, one person’s ‘scam’ is another person’s deeply held religious beliefs. The difference, I am finding, is whether that belief system is being described by the believer–or by a disparager.

(shrug) you do what you want to do.
I’m just saying that any convert to my faith who wants to bare the secrets and problems with the one that they left had better not try to talk to me about it. I won’t listen.

More importantly, anybody with any sense who, having heard what a disaffected member of a faith had to say, would go to a true believing member of that other faith to get the real story. That could be counterproductive, if your aim is to destroy/discredit or other wise harm it.

 

[dianaiad]

i think it does. so does persecution = truth?

That’s a strange question.

I mean, think about it. If being persecuted = being true, then the obverse must also be true; those who persecute must be false. That could cause some difficulty…

Catholics have persecuted pretty much everybody rather nastily–except perhaps Mormons. They have been persecuted equally badly in return. (or maybe it’s a chicken and the egg sort of thing… )Protestants have both received, and handed out, some pretty nasty persecution of their own, to Catholics, Jews…each other…

Persecution = other people being stupid, or afraid, or just plain evil. It’s also pretty stupid; nothing cements an idea like opposition to it, and nothing confirms one’s own sense of “TRUTH” than being persecuted for believing whatever it is. So persecution is extremely counterproductive…and has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with ‘truth.’

 

[dianaiad]

My son was deliberately hit by a car.

(thinking about that one)

You win. Was he hurt badly? Is he OK?

 

[dianaiad]

Now THAT is a position that Mormons share with you, rather firmly. But then you know that already.

 

[dianaiad]

i am trying not to laugh. the masons (who didn’t exist unitl long after the cross) introduced JS to these symbols and if you read the literature of both you see they assign the same meanings. you DON’T see early christians or jews with these symbols and meanings.

This has quite a bit of truth to it.

My response to it is to ask, “…and your point is?” Those symbols, when we use them, mean what WE say they mean. When you use them, they mean what you want them to.

All we have to do is make certain that our audience is aware of the meaning we ascribe to them.

 

[dianaiad]

and they always tell you their true thoughts?

none? you sure? how? and in any case, if juvenile delinquets in utah have pics of JS in their room or a BoM in their car that somehow tarnishes those things?

What makes you think I live in Utah? I don’t, y’know. I’d like to; Cache Valley is gorgeous and I miss the snow. However, they don’t pay teachers very well in Utah; my income would be cut in half. (shrug)

Might be worth it, though, if I could actually get some students who didn’t have to be frisked for weapons every morning.

We do not place anywhere near the reverence paid to the cross to pictures of Joseph Smith or to physical copies of the scriptures, Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price or the Doctrine and Covenants. The first is simply a picture of a man, and the second is simply a book, to be written in, and hopefully pretty mangled during scripture chases, etc. If one gets dropped or torn, oh, well, go get another one. It is the words in it that matter, not the ink and the pages.

So to answer your question…no. It doesn’t. As well, nobody is attempting to wear either one as a belly button piercing ornament.

 

[mfbukowski]

Interesting question, mfbukowski. To put it another way that is more appropriate for a Catholic,** does the feeling of “being in the right place” come before or after the study and acceptance of the truth of Church doctrine and teachings? **I know the answer already, since I am also a convert to Catholicism, but it might not be immediately obvious to Mormons, who seem to feel that a “burning in the bosom” is evidence of the truth of their faith. That is what we object to. (emphasis added)

That’s because you don’t know Mormonism. This is how the Lord instructs us to deal with issues like this:

D&C 9:
7 Behold, you have not understood; you have supposed that I would give it unto you, when you took no thought save it was to ask me. 8 But, behold, I say unto you, that you must** study it out in your mind; then you must ask me **if it be right, and if it is right I will cause that your bosom shall burn within you; therefore, you shall feel that it is right (Emphasis added)

Sound familiar? So if that is what you object to, does this mean you no longer have any objections?

 

[mfbukowski]

i am trying not to laugh. the masons (who didn’t exist unitl long after the cross) introduced JS to these symbols and if you read the literature of both you see they assign the same meanings. you DON’T see early christians or jews with these symbols and meanings.

Well, for the record you are wrong but I won’t discuss our meanings of these symbols, since they are related to temple worship. The Chi Rho is related to our symbols, the anchor, the wheel, the fish, and so is the star of David. But I have studied masonry fairly extensively and the meanings are NOT the same.

But you probably will not believe me, and I will not go into it further, so there is no point on carrying on this particular discussion. After you become Mormon again we can meet in a temple somewhere and I will show you what you missed the first time around.

Both Manly Hall and Albert Pike and many others believe masonry goes back to Solomon’s temple. It is my opinion that it was there an apostate understanding of the symbols was conveyed to masonry. That’s all folks!

 

[dzheremi]

That’s because you don’t know Mormonism.

Then apparently neither do many of the Mormons I’ve conversed with, on here or elsewhere. This is of no consequence to me.

This is how the Lord instructs us to deal with issues like this:

I am a Catholic. I do not recognize those as being the words of the Lord, but the words of Mormons writing their own books for their own reasons. I will certainly pay them no heed, but even if I did, this verse still talks about a “burning in the bosom” as being confirmation of the truth of Mormonism, so I fail to see how it contradicts anything I wrote. It merely puts Mormon presuppositions into the mouth of the Lord…not a good thing. Not anything I or any other Catholic can see as anything other than falsehood and foolishness.

Sound familiar?

No, it doesn’t. As I wrote above, I do not consider this to be an authentic record of anything - certainly not of the word of God! If you do, fine, but don’t try to get me to pretend along with you. I’m not interested.

So if that is what you object to, does this mean you no longer have any objections?

No, I still have the same objections. Scripture was canonized by the One True Church. I don’t need a farmboy’s self-serving revelations over a thousand years later or any “burning in the bosom” to show me the truth. It’s been there all along.

 

[mfbukowski]

the post was about seeing the light and joining Christianity and then sharing the truth with others. the implication was that this is related to leaving mormonism. so once one sees the light about mormonism and becomes a christian they have an obligation to warn others.

Well I know what you are saying but I love your phrasing. Slightly ambiguous from my side of the fence.

Let me change one word of your post:

the post was about seeing the light and joining Christianity and then sharing the truth with others. the implication was that this is related to JOINING mormonism. so once one sees the light about mormonism and becomes a christian they have an obligation to warn others

This is exactly what many convert missionaries do all the time!

 

[mfbukowski]

(thinking about that one)

You win. Was he hurt badly? Is he OK?

Walking down a country road in Missippi, looking like our missionaries look-- White shirts, ties, black name badges-- don’t see a lot of folks walking down country roads like that in rural Missippi-- car veered toward them, missionaries of course dodged, but there was a fence on one side- grazed my son who was on the road side of the other missionary, and broke off the mirror of the car (which he still has a souvenir)- some bad bruises but he is 6’5 and tough, so thank God nothing worse!

Just a nice memory of how charitable some people can be.

 

[mfbukowski]

Then apparently neither do many of the Mormons I’ve conversed with, on here or elsewhere. This is of no consequence to me.

I am a Catholic. I do not recognize those as being the words of the Lord, but the words of Mormons writing their own books for their own reasons. I will certainly pay them no heed, but even if I did, this verse still talks about a “burning in the bosom” as being confirmation of the truth of Mormonism, so I fail to see how it contradicts anything I wrote. It merely puts Mormon presuppositions into the mouth of the Lord…not a good thing. Not anything I or any other Catholic can see as anything other than falsehood and foolishness.

No, it doesn’t. As I wrote above, I do not consider this to be an authentic record of anything - certainly not of the word of God! If you do, fine, but don’t try to get me to pretend along with you. I’m not interested.

No, I still have the same objections. Scripture was canonized by the One True Church. I don’t need a farmboy’s self-serving revelations over a thousand years later or any “burning in the bosom” to show me the truth. It’s been there all along.

PHEW! Relax!

My recollection of the discussion: Some one posted that the Catholic church made them feel at home. I asked if most Catholics felt that was a good reason for joining the church. You said that Catholics believe that they should study it out in their minds before they make a decision, to be followed perhaps by good feelings (Not an exact quote-- this is my recollection)

All I said in essence, was “we believe the same thing” and gave you a reference to show that this is what we believe.

Wow! I was ready for something like “Oh- OK I didn’t know you believed that” or something along those lines!

We weren’t even talking about whether or not the D&C is inspired- I just cited it to show our beliefs!

 

[Ruthie]

You said that Catholics believe that they should study it out in their minds before they make a decision, to be followed perhaps by good feelings (Not an exact quote-- this is my recollection)

All I said in essence, was “we believe the same thing” and gave you a reference to show that this is what we believe.

I see two problems with this.

1. We do not hide any of our beliefs from beginners; they are all available to be studied. The Catechism spells it all out, and the “backup” documents are all widely available. We have no secret rituals or symbols we can’t talk about “outside the Temple.” Our Sacraments are public. If you see a symbol in a Catholic church, you (and anyone) can find out what it means. I don’t see how a person can make an informed decision to be a Mormon when he or she is not given **all **the information.
2. I would not describe “a burning in the breast” as a way of “feeling at home.” In fact, when I feel such a thing, I usually take Maalox. “Feeling at home” means comfort, and being among people who have a common “language.” I would not feel at home with people who are hiding things from me.

Holy Trinity, One God, have mercy on us.

Ruthie

 

[dianaiad]

Scripture was canonized by the One True Church. I don't need a farmboy's self-serving revelations over a thousand years later or any "burning in the bosom" to show me the truth. It's been there all along.

I have a question that I’ve been wanting to ask someone for quite awhile.

How do you know this? I mean, how do you know that the bible is true, complete, and correct?