My Sister is Mormon....

[why_me]

Well, the LDS church runs itself like a corporation, so it is an appropriate analogy for them.

Well, the mormon church has made some good investments in the past. But I would not call it a corporation. We need to remember that the catholic church can be seen to be run as an indepentent state complete with a foreign minister. And of course for some it is a state within a state. Most church can be seen to be run like corporations, if they wish to have a successful infrastructure.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Excuse me, but you are deliberately changing the meaning of the words by changing the actual words I wrote.

I did NOT write that “most Christians wear a cross and they think nothing of it.”

I wrote “'most Christians who wear the cross…and think nothing of it.”

The use of the word “who” lets you know that I am classifying here: first class: “Christians” and then “who wear a cross” and finally, those Christians who wear a cross AND think nothing of it…and not even all of those. Just most of those.

So we have the set “Christians”, that contain the subset “who wear a cross” (not all Christians do), that contains the further subset “and think nothing of it”…and not all of those.

Again, if you keep insisting that the entire set “Christians” wear crosses and think nothing of them, you are arguing my point better than i can.

Now, do I think that there are a great many Christians who wear crosses and don’t think much about them?

Yep. I run into them all the time. Teach them. Work with them.Suspend them for fighting, and drug use, and profanity. Turn them in for brandishing weapons in class.

If they are thinking about the crosses they wear, their thoughts need to be better aimed.

Of course your definition of “Christian” may exclude people who wear crosses and don’t think about them. I’ve heard stranger requirements for Christianity.

Well if you had said In a way, it COULD be said that we honor it more than Christians who wear it–and seldom think about it

But you didn’t, you said “most Christians” so your sub group is not Christians but most Christians. So the first part of your sentence says most Christians wear crosses and the second part says they think nothing of it.

 

[dianaiad]

What I meant by that is not that that you went up to him, but that you, rather than simply saying ‘no, thank you…’ decided to teach him a lesson or something by issuing those questions.

When I was a missionary, had someone asked me those same questions, I would have understood one thing and, depending on whether I had the time or not, done one of two things. First, I would have understood that I was talking to someone who wasn’t interested in learning what I actually had to say. Then I would have either done as that young man did, or if I was feeling pugnacious, I would have taken you on.

Which would have been a mistake. I was 21 and only a third as annoying as I am now. We would have argued/debated–and we both would have wasted our time and lost any chance at ‘feeling the spirit’, whether that spirit is of brotherhood, peace, friendship, the gospel–whatever. It would have been an intellectual bash session for which I–and that nineteen year old you met–would have been ill-prepared. There is no way that I would have changed your mine, nor you mine.

I realize that you won’t believe this, but the fact is, he probably DID know the answers to your questions. What he did not have was the experience to explain them to a someone who had (at least to his perception) probably been 'coached"(ok, that may not be the right word…) by anti-Mormon sources with all the answers and questions. He was correct; he didn’t have the experience.

By the time he went home, however, he would have acquired it.

 

[dianaiad]

Hey- you are from So Cal and you don’t call her sister Garcia?

Not after the snowstorm, no. I’m still traumatized!

 

[dianaiad]

None of my friends have every approached the altar for the Eucharist.

To do so would demonstrate their extreme disdain and hubris for Christian belief. It would be tantamount to me playing basketball in a mormon stake building.

Robert

Hardly. You are quite welcome to play basket ball in a Mormon stake building.

…just let us lower the basket, first.

However, you are quite right; we would not take communion anywhere else; to do so would be disrespectful both to them–and to our own beliefs.

 

[dianaiad]

I see mormons I know in town in Mass on occasion. No one checks for “Catholic Membership Cards” at the door.

I have seen some of them at the Cathedral in Sacramento, too.

Yet, it is “tragically ironic” [to quote Miss Irony Dianaiad] that my friends will not let me attend any mormon ‘ceremony’ in the local temple.

Mormons are a secretive sort: and therein lies the distrust and scepticism of Christians when discussing the major differences in our two faiths.

Robert

(perk)
Where in the world did I write 'tragically ironic" anywhere?

 

[dianaiad]

I am from Southern California (GO ANGELS). Boyd Jensen and I were friends throughout Law School at Pepperdine, Malibu. His dad is a big something or other with your church.

I am VERY familiar with mormonism. And yes, I am a Catholic.

The Holy Eucharist becomes so (with the wine) upon the epiclesis from the priest-celebrant. That priest has received his Orders from a Bishop who received his Orders from a Bishop back to Whozzit in the 1st century. That is Apostolic Succession.

Without it, the bread and the wine DO NOT become the Body and Blood of Christ.

That has been taught in the Church (both Catholic and Orthodox) for about 20 centuries.

What others do is a mere memorial, there is no changing of the bread and wine into the Body and the Blood of Christ.

That is the difference, my friend.

Sure it’s not fair: it’s what Jesus taught His Disciples (our first Bishops who taught their successors who taught their successors, and so forth).

When things aren’t fair or to our liking, some of us start our own religions.

Robert

The point is, if Mormons are not allowed to participate in the Eucharist, then criticism of us for not allowing you to participate in our Temple ceremonies is a bit hard to defend, don’t you think?

 

[majick275]

How is that relevant? We get to think for ourselves.

“Any Latter-day Saint who denounces or opposes whether actively or otherwise, any plan or doctrine advocated by the prophets, seers, revelators’ of the church, is cultivating the spirit of apostacy. One cannot speak evil of the lord’s annointed… and retain the holy spirit in his heart. This sort of game is Satan’s favorite pastime, and he has practiced it to believing souls since Adam. He {Satan} wins a great victory when he can get members of the church to speak against their leaders and to do their own thinking.”

“When our leaders speak, the thinking has been done. When they propose a plan–it is God’s Plan. When they point the way, there is no other which is safe. When they give directions, it should mark the end of controversy, God works in no other way. To think otherwise, without immediate repentance, may cost one his faith, may destroy his testimony, and leave him a stranger to the kingdom of God.”

Ward Teachers Message, Deseret News, Church Section p. 5, May 26, 1945
Also included in the Improvement Era, June 1945

 

[dianaiad]

Well if you had said In a way, it COULD be said that we honor it more than Christians who wear it–and seldom think about it

But you didn’t, you said “most Christians” so your sub group is not Christians but most Christians. So the first part of your sentence says most Christians wear crosses and the second part says they think nothing of it.

I see where you are heading. However, since I wrote the words, don’t you think that I get to clarify the meaning? As well, your grammar is off. If I had meant what you claim, then I wouldn’t have put a “who” in there.

On the other hand, this is one of the things I meant when I said that English is a wonderful, wild and confusing language. Both of our parsings could be true–except of course that I wrote it, so the meaning I intended is the ‘true’ one.

Which is, of course, that it really DID go :

most

(Christians [who wear the cross{and think nothing of it } ] )

Which is describing the subset “Christians who wear the cross and think nothing of it” …and only ‘most’ of them.

 

[majick275]

:Hmmm:.

Y’know, Patting oneself on the back for winning a conversation with oneself seems a little…off.

Doing it in public can be downright embarrassing. After all, what if the other guy actually won the point? :doh2:

Let me help you out here: er…
Was that a question? Pretty squishy question, if it was.

“outdated prophecies,” Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith…er, what exactly is it that you are asking here?

Would you care to be a little more specific? I mean, there are a great many prophecies; there’s the one to Moses about using lambs blood on door sills. That could be considered ‘outdated,’ I suppose. Or the one to Lot telling him to get the heck out of Dodge–er, Sodom–

Or my favorite prophet, Jonah, who told Nineveh that it was about to be toast–and who sulked mightily when the Ninevites actually repented and averted the lightning strikes. I suppose that one could be 'outdated."

How about the one to Paul, telling him to go to Annanias to get cured of blindness? Isn’t that a bit ‘outdated?’

Or perhaps a better word would be 'fulfilled?"

Or “for the people of that time, not this one?”

Something along those lines?

However, since I really don’t know what it is you were “I thought so” ing over, I’m just guessing. You are going to have to fill in the blanks here.

Diana

typical mormon response. reminds me of hinkley’s infamous “i don’t know” interview.

 

[dianaiad]

typical mormon response. reminds me of hinkley’s infamous “i don’t know” interview.

What, asking for clarification of a very vague and, quite honestly, boggy (as in…what the heck are you TALKING ABOUT???) question that was followed by a self congratulatory 'I thought so." is a 'typical Mormon response?"

I hope so. It means you consider 'typical Mormons" to have enough brains to recognize flummery when they see it.

 

[dianaballein]

Good grief, give me a break. I didn’t ask DURING the Mass!!!

During it, I simply enjoyed. It was beautiful. Didn’t understand all of it, but I enjoyed it.

From you saying you had asked the person next to you, it sounded as if you had asked during Mass. Once Mass is over, people generally do not keep sitting in the pew.

 

[dianaballein]

We will have to disagree on that.

Courage would be for him to have turned to what he considered to be truth in spite of the damage it would cause his relationship with his family, while keeping the promises he made.

There is a word for someone who takes a swipe at his former beliefs and his family, betraying them, in some attempt to make himself look better to the new group. It’s not 'brave."

Which is why, by the way, LDS converts are actively discouraged from disparaging their former belief system, and are encouraged to mend rifts with their families. It has been my experience, though, that converts who lose contact with their families have been kicked out by them, and people who leave Mormonism for something else are the ones who do the kicking.

(shrug)

I’ve never been able to figure that out. I know that, should one of my children leave the church and go to another one, it would break my heart–but it wouldn’t change my love for them.

My sisters eldest son left. He is still very present at all family gatherings. She truly hopes he will return one day but I don’t see that happening. He is married now and he and his wife are not the sort to confine themselves to the rules of any specific religion. At least that is what I see. Nice nice people. But I guess one never knows. I never thought I would be embracing religion either at his age.

 

[dianaballein]

You are calling me a liar.

Do you want to do that?

No one is calling you a liar. My gosh. When you walk up to a Bishop to speak to him, do you automatically know how is going to reply? No. It’s no different. The Priest has no idea what is going to be asked and the person there has no idea how he will respond to what has been asked. There are variables.

 

[dianaiad]

From you saying you had asked the person next to you, it sounded as if you had asked during Mass. Once Mass is over, people generally do not keep sitting in the pew.

No, but the person sitting next to me in the pew remains that person no matter where he or she goes.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[dianaiad]

My sisters eldest son left. He is still very present at all family gatherings. She truly hopes he will return one day but I don’t see that happening. He is married now and he and his wife are not the sort to confine themselves to the rules of any specific religion. At least that is what I see. Nice nice people. But I guess one never knows. I never thought I would be embracing religion either at his age.

Age sometimes really DOES equal wisdom, after all.

 

[dianaballein]

In the pre-1990 version, no one outside of the temple was taught that they were going to take vows where you mimicked slitting your own throat, slicing your own bowels, as the result for revealing your temple SECRETS.

No one was told before hand that you would stand there wearing nothing but a poncho while people touched your naked body, including private areas.

Shall I say more. Do you need help understanding what it is that you don’t tell people.

This is EXACTLY what I was told as well…that these hand gestures were done…and the cleansing or washing of the bride before she is put into her garments by people (women) you don’t know…now I hear reference to it again.

 

[dianaiad]

No one is calling you a liar. My gosh. When you walk up to a Bishop to speak to him, do you automatically know how is going to reply? No. It’s no different. The Priest has no idea what is going to be asked and the person there has no idea how he will respond to what has been asked. There are variables.

When one relates a personal experience, and the listener calls it a ‘fanciful tale,’ that can generally, and and fairly safely, be interpreted as calling it a lie, Diana.

See, here’s the thing: one can tell an untruth–people forget words spoken. People can write an untruth…words on paper can be torn up, shredded, erased…but untruths told on the internet?

They get eternally archived.

Bad idea to tell ‘fanciful stories’ here. They will ALWAYS come back to bite you in the butt. I react rather badly to being called a liar, or to telling ‘fanciful stories.’.

I am OFTEN mistaken…but that’s not the same thing.

Diana

 

[dianaballein]

Y’know, it’s generally a good idea to keep things in context. I didn’t claim that I was 'much better than most Christians."

I said that it " COULD be said that we honor it more than most Christians who wear it–and seldom think about it; "

Please note; there isn’t anything about being 'better than most Christians" in there. I said that it MIGHT be said (and I’m about to emphasize all the stuff that you conveniently snipped) that we HONOR [THE CROSS] more than most Christians WHO WEAR IT–AND SELDOM THINK ABOUT IT.

Are you telling me, then, that most Christians don’t think about the cross that they wear? Because that’s the only way that you can construe this as a claim that I am somehow ‘better’ than ‘most Christians.’

Of course, if you actually mean THAT, then you are arguing for the LDS position on the cross better than I ever could.

It is generally good to keep things in context, and continually comparing the Cross to a swastika is blasphemy.

 

[michaeldaniels]

It may have to do with the fact that they are in fact NOT Christian. They do not have a valid Trinitarian formula for their Baptisms…makes sense to me that non-Christians wouldn’t have a Cross/Crucifix in their buildings.

and I have always wondered why they do not have any crosses in their churches. Does anyone know why this is?